Originally posted by ares834
And Jacen and Vader are mentally two completely different individuals.What I believe?
Still has nothing to do with their conflict.
Originally posted by ares834
So you agree with me that they are different. Good.
😆
Why are you so eager for an answer on that question, anyway?
Do you need help with something?
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Still has nothing to do with their conflict.[/B]
I was merely pointing out the fallacy of ABC logic. I'm not saying NJO Jacen is stronger than Kyle.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
😆Why are so eager for an answer on that question, anyway?
Do you need help with something? [/B]
And why are you so wary?
Spoiler:
Probably because it's a trap that even Ackbar could see a mile away...
As for the reason, if we get in an argument about it I want you to have a firm stance to prevent shifting the goalpost.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
So, flash forward 20+ years later, with much development and gained knowledge and you have an even more powerful Katarn.Aside from a few seemingly random powers gained by Jacen, I don't see any evidence of him being more powerful than Katarn, as of NJO.
Doing the math, and stacking up what we know, side by side, would conclude Katarn being just as powerful - if not more.
It's very possible that when Jacen became the Sith Lord Darth Caedus, he surpassed Katarn in skill and power, though his showing in LotF against Katarn isn't very solid, as Kyle was sent on a mission to merely use a diversion to plant a Tracking Device on Caedus (implying this was not a mission to kill, or even capture him - so he had to refrain from those actions) and at the same time Katarn had to watch for the safety of the more inexperienced Knights around him, dividing his focus.
Add to the fact that the normally arrogant and egotistical Caedus actually noted that he considered Kyle Katarn a threat.
Again, if you break even logically, you still see this as them meeting on a sort of even ground - Caedus is weary of Katarn, and Katarn is sent expressly - not to kill or capture Caedus - but just to utilize a diversion and planet a tracker on him.
If Kyle could have defeated Caedus, a Caedus who was still recovering from his wounds from his fight with Luke, then he would have. The mission was to plant a tracker on Jacen, but obviously defeating him was preferable to just being able to track him.
As it stands, Jacen was never in any actual danger during the fight. If you read the fight he was kicking their asses even when he was fighting Katarn:
'He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.
Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it. not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.
He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.'
He's able to knock down all of the other Jedi while fighting Katarn in lightsabers, all in 2 seconds. They're only really engaged for 15 second before they break and Jacen uses his trick of pulling a speeder at Kyle in order to stab him. Caedus dominated this fight despite his injuries and the fact that he was outnumbered 4 to 1, and still Katarn left with a lightsaber wound through the chest. So you can't really call into question that Caedus is his superior imo.
Originally posted by ares834
I was merely pointing out the fallacy of ABC logic.
I'd agree with that as well. What I am saying is that given what we know, Learner Kyle still took out someone who could give NJO Jacen alot of trouble or kill him - either way you slice it.
Then after that, that same Kyle still grows and develops as a Force user and fighter for 20+ (action-packed) years.
So add that all together you roughly get a man equal to, or greater than NJO Jacen.
So you see - it's not a matter of alphabetical logic - it's a matter of mathimatical logic.
Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying NJO Jacen is stronger than Kyle.
And I'm not saying NJO Kyle is stronger than Jacen.
- I'm saying when you crunch the numbers and factors, they're about even.
Originally posted by ares834
And why are you so wary?Spoiler:
Probably because it's a trap that even Ackbar could see a mile away...As for the reason, if we get in an argument about it I want you to have a firm stance to prevent shifting the goalpost.
Oh.
Well, just refer to our last discussion about that particular subject - because you ended up agreeing with me.
We were in agreeance, weren't we? renske
Originally posted by Nephthys
If Kyle could have defeated Caedus, a Caedus who was still recovering from his wounds from his fight with Luke, then he would have. The mission was to plant a tracker on Jacen, but obviously defeating him was preferable to just being able to track him.As it stands, Jacen was never in any actual danger during the fight. If you read the fight he was kicking their asses even when he was fighting Katarn:
'He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.
Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it. not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.
He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.'
He's able to knock down all of the other Jedi while fighting Katarn in lightsabers, all in 2 seconds. They're only really engaged for 15 second before they break and Jacen uses his trick of pulling a speeder at Kyle in order to stab him. Caedus dominated this fight despite his injuries and the fact that he was outnumbered 4 to 1, and still Katarn left with a lightsaber wound through the chest. So you can't really call into question that Caedus is his superior imo.
I kind of agree with that, but wasn't Kyle's focus divided because of having to fight with the inexperienced Jedi?
Remember, Obi-wan and Anakin fighting Count Dooku at the same time couldn't do squat - they got thrown around and kicked the same way.
But when Anakin had a chance to fight Dooku alone - he pulled out a difficult win.
Dooku began using Dun Moch on Anakin. He went into "teh z@ne". Many pwnz0rz were then had.
Kyle was focusing on Jacen. That was his job. He was the only one who could last seconds against Jacen, and thats with 4 other people to hold him off. Katarn didn't even have time to try and defend them, on top of Jacen not really caring about the other 4. He was too busy tooling Kyle.
Heres the rest of the fight:
'Ten seconds.
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.
Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three.
He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute. Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.
Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.
Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through.
Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.
Fifteen seconds.
Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question."
The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready.
Katarn caught his returning lightsaber. "Meaning you will torture us to death. Are you listening to yourself, Jacen? Do you even know who you are anymore?"
"I do. It's you who have no idea who I am."
He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.
Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .
One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control.
Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.
Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncom-ing GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.
A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.
Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.
Katarn now stood so close to Caedus that every facial feature was visible, every scar and line in his weathered face, every hair on his brow, mustache, and beard.
Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest.
A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement.'
Kyle would have lost a leg if he was by himself and theres only one point where Kyle has to catch the girl Jedi, which didn't inconvenience himself at all. Jacen is his clear superior.
Edit: Urgh. No idea why its like that. Sorry for the warped text.
Originally posted by Pwned
Dooku began using Dun Moch on Anakin. He went into "teh z@ne". Many pwnz0rz were then had.Kyle was focusing on Jacen. That was his job. He was the only one who could last seconds against Jacen, and thats with 4 other people to hold him off. Katarn didn't even have time to try and defend them, on top of Jacen not really caring about the other 4. He was too busy tooling Kyle.
Shhhh. I'm waiting for my truly worthy adversary to launch his counter. 😉
Originally posted by Master_GalenThat's rather moot point. Anakin knew Kenobi's moves as well, so it doesn't give advantage to either of them. Also, at the speed they fought, knowing each other's moves hardly matters, it is way too random and unpredictable.
No, the reason Anakin lost the duel against Obi-Wan is because Obi-Wan knew all of Anakins moves, he trained Anakin and knew exactly how he would fight.
and also that Makashi is known to be weak against the kinetic force of Djem So.Wookieepedia is not always a good source.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'd agree with that as well. What I am saying is that given what we know, Learner Kyle still took out someone who could give NJO Jacen alot of trouble or kill him - either way you slice it.Then after that, that same Kyle still grows and develops as a Force user and fighter for 20+ (action-packed) years.
So add that all together you roughly get a man equal to, or greater than NJO Jacen.
So you see - it's not a matter of alphabetical logic - it's a matter of mathimatical logic.
ABC logic is mathematical logic. It's the short hand name, at least on this forum, for the transitive property. And is still faulty.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Oh.Well, just refer to our last discussion about that particular subject - because you ended up agreeing with me.
We were in agreeance, weren't we? renske
So you are going to cling to a clear mis-post (hell I edited it) rather than challenge me.
😆
That's so pathetic it's adorable.
Concede or take a stance.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Urgh. No idea why its like that. Sorry for the warped text.
No, it's okay. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
It does seem as if Kyle had to coordinate his movements with other fighters who didn't necessarily have much experience fighting as a group with Kyle.
It seems that Caedus kept TKing people around to distract Kyle and interfere with his own movements and intentions.
And when finally they stood ready to do battle perhaps one-on-one - Caedus goes ahead and flings a vehicle into Kyle so that he can impale him afterwards.
- In short, you have a jumbly fight - with Katarn and inexperienced Knights trying their best to coordinate their movements closely with each other - Caedus flinging them around and into each other and Katarn, to screw up Katarn's own movements - and finally when Katarn prepares to fight Caedus on even-ground - Caedus grabs a vehicle and uses that instead of trying to stab Katarn conventionally.
I agree with you that Caedus was likely somewhat more powerful and skilled than Katarn - but not by much.
Caedus considered Katarn a threat - and would not try to engage him in traditional combat - apparently, at all costs.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's rather moot point. Anakin knew Kenobi's moves as well, so it doesn't give advantage to either of them. Also, at the speed they fought, knowing each other's moves hardly matters, it is way too random and unpredictable.
Anakin was in force rage, so would not be thinking about Obi-Wans moves or tactics.
Originally posted by Arhael
Wookieepedia is not always a good source.
ROTS novel states that Dooku was overwhelmed by the kinetic force behind Anakins strikes.