Abeloth -vs- Darth Nihilus

......

What are your sources? You have to prove it.

There is a difference between the, "crude matter" that people are made of, and their Force signature. He feeds on the Force that they are a part of, not made of.

Nope, I played that game several times, he never ate an attack that was launched at him via the Force. He can sever people from the Force in such a way that they die, and feed off of their agony (its a known technique multiple dark siders use, such as Bane and Palpatine (the feeding off the agony, not the severing)) but he can't absorb the Force energy from an attack because he was never shown to do so, not even hinted at, or implied. "Because I say so" is not a valid debating tactic.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
[B]What's the source that he wasn't? 😛

Every source I've seen says he was - and only one says he isn't - Ares.

So I want to see what makes his one opinion more valid than apparent established Canon.

😂

I said no such thing. I've only claimed that no source says Nihilus was on the planet at detention and that it is equally feasible that his ship crashed there. And no canon source has claimed he was on the planet.

Also, when someone experiences millions of deaths, putting up defenses against anything is the last thing they would think off.
Also, there is no Force wound concept outside KOTTOR. There are many examples of Force users suffering far greater disturbances in the Force. Like Kyp suffering death of his brother and entire Karrida. Or Brakiss and Kueller feeling simultaneous death of entire planet population they were on. Or Itor annihilation by Yuuzhan Vong. And many other examples.

Also, there is nothing to suggest that Krayt's Force drain sucked. At the same time there is nothing suggesting that drain can't be resisted. Both Luke and Cade had no problem with that, when encountering Krayt.

Originally posted by ares834
"The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void."

Yep, it was the Dovin Basal. Not Luke. 😎

Originally posted by ares834

He was what??? We know he was on Malachor V when he stripped Kreia of the force. If you are talking about him crashing onto the planet, I did not state it as fact. I merely presented another possibility in contrast to him actually being on the planet at the time of detonation. Hell, I don't even think there was a ground battle during the battle.

You're still the one claiming he wasn't on the planet when the war ended, when every other source I've seen says otherwise.

What do you know that they don't?

Originally posted by ares834

Yeah, on the force within people. Never has he shown the ability to feed on force power thrown his way.

He pulls it out of people - but the Force is what he's after - he's a Wound in the Force itself - seeking out all Force energy to consume.

Force attacks like lightning and destruction can be absorbed conventionally anyway, and he seeks Force energy, period, and that is what Force attacks are made of.

Originally posted by ares834

I'm not sure why you think this is true.

Okay - back.

Yep, she's not a Force Wound, so she's screwed. 😉

Next.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yep, it was the Dovin Basal. Not Luke. 😎

You serious? The force was leaking into the void not the Basal.
"Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it."

"It" clearly refers to the block hole as it's sucking up animals.

Read the whole sentence next time please.

Originally posted by Battlemaster You're still the one claiming he wasn't on the planet when the war ended, when every other source I've seen says otherwise.

Quit using straw mans. I never once claimed that he wasn't on the planet during detention. I've only said that no source stated that he was. And if every source claims he was on the planet post a quote from one.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Force attacks like lightning and destruction can be absorbed conventionally anyway, and he seeks Force energy, period, and that is what Force attacks are made of.

I'll believe it once you show an example of him doing it.

Originally posted by ares834
You serious? The force was leaking into the void not the Basal.
"Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it."

"It" clearly refers to the block hole as it's sucking up animals.

Read the whole sentence next time please.

How about you tell me why he's in the machine, if he doesn't need it to manipulate a singularity.

If that's the case, he and Kyp can just fly around in any ship and destroy the Vong that way.

But, surprise, surprise, they capture the Vong ships designed to manipulate singularities.

Curious, no?

How about you use your noggin for a change? 😉

Originally posted by ares834

Quit using straw mans. I never once claimed that he wasn't on the planet during detention. I've only said that no source stated that he was. And if every source claims he was on the planet post a quote from one.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lawl. Internet fail.

Originally posted by ares834

I'll believe it once you show an example of him doing it.

Just like I'll believe you about Nihilus not being on Malachor, when you can show me proof of it. 😎

Originally posted by Battlemaster
How about you tell me why he's in the machine, if he doesn't need it to manipulate a singularity.

You talking about the Star Destroyer that Luke's sitting in... Why would that make a difference?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If that's the case, he and Kyp can just fly around in any ship and destroy the Vong that way.

Hmm... Probably because it takes Luke a massive amount of effort to do so. The text notes that he is exhausted.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Just like I'll believe you about Nihilus not being on Malachor, when you can show me proof of it. 😎

Good thing I didn't claim that. Rather I said I've seen no source stating such and, despite your claims that numerous sources say so, you've presented no canon evidence that he was. Nor have you provided any for Nihilus eating force attacks.

Originally posted by ares834
You talking about the Star Destroyer that Luke's sitting in... Why would that make a difference?

I'm talking about the Dovin Basal's Luke needs to manipulate singularities. 😉

Originally posted by ares834

Hmm... Probably because it takes Luke a massive amount of effort to do so. The text notes that he is exhausted.

Hmm... probably because only a Dovin Basal can do it - which is why they used them.

Originally posted by ares834

Good thing I didn't claim that.

You're not claiming that? renske

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm talking about the Dovin Basal's Luke needs to manipulate singularities. 😉

Please direct me to where it says he manipulates the dovin basal. All it talks about is him manipulating the "void".

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You're not claiming that? renske

No. I'm simply asking for a source that says he was on the planet during the generator's detention as there are other ways he could have got there.

Originally posted by ares834
Please direct me to where it says he manipulates the dovin basal. All it talks about is him manipulating the "void

Please. Even one of the Forum's greatest Debators knew Luke was using a Dovin Basal.

Originally posted by Gideon
All I know is that a dovin basal is not the same thing as a black hole; the dovin basal merely creates artificial black holes. It's rather like saying that manipulating the firing mechanism for a nuclear warhead means that someone has power on par with its yield.

Furthermore, the dovin basal in question was powerful enough only to intercept missiles -- and Luke had to enter brief meditation in order to pull that off.

Not nearly as impressive as "LOL LUKE MANIPULATES BLACK WHOLES!"

He has far more impressive feats, imho.

Originally posted by ares834

No. I'm simply asking for a source that says he was on the planet during the generator's detention as there are other ways he could have got there.

I'm asking for One source that says he wasn't.

So far, I only have you to go on - and I don't think all the other sources on Google are wrong, and you're magically right. 😉

You do know how to type into the Google search bar, right? renske

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Please. Even one of the Forum's greatest Debators knew Luke was using a Dovin Basal.

And in this case he is wrong. But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me. But alas, then we must then do this with everything he states.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm asking for One source that says he wasn't.

So far, I only have you to go on - and I don't think all the other sources on Google are wrong, and you're magically right. 😉

You do know how to type into the Google search bar, right? renske

Why should I prove that he isn't? I never said he wasn't on the planet during detention, only that no source confirms such. Furthermore, Google is not a canon source.

Dovin Basals manipulated by Force... What next? Nihilus draining Yuuzhan Vongs?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No one does. Not many of us actually read the comics. I myself have no idea how powerful he is, other than that he was matched/beaten by Cade who from what I hear is poorly trained.

That's... not really a good description.

Cade had both near-complete Jedi training, plus months of Sith training, plus a lot of bounty hunter experience. And like Luke, he picked up skill really fast. He started out the series rusty, but was fighting on the level of Jedi masters in no-time.

And, I should note, Cade never was his match in combat and never beat him in a duel. Cade was able to put up a fight in the final battle (after Cade had been fighting Sith and Jedi and Imperial Knights for something like two years strait), but even then Krayt literally did kill him in the fight and if it wasn't for Krayt healing him so he could turn him, that would've been it, game over, Krayt win. The first time they fought, the only reason Cade even escaped was because Krayt was shot in the back.

The only person in the series who was really able to go power-to-power with Krayt was Celeste Morne, a KotoR era Jedi Master who was empowered by Karness Muur, one of the original Hundred Year's Darkness Sith Lords (and I'll note- Morne was still solidly outmatched before Muur took the driver's seat).

Darth Wyyrlok, Krayt's second (and slayer of ancient sith Darth Andeddu), put up some fight too, but was beaten at his own speciality.

I mean, Krayt's 80 years older by the time of his series than when he helped Luke, but still, guy's a badass. Even before he got any Sith training, only his Jedi skills, he was a near-match for Obi-wan.

Oh yea, and at one point he solo'd a Vong warship, unarmed 🙂 Broke free from restraints, killed all the Vong, escaped as it blew up.

Battlemaster, you really, really should learn how to debate. You haven't brought a single piece of proof at all. Not even incorrect proof. And you apparently jump to conclusions and use out-of-context quotes. Congrats.

As a famous character once said (paraphrased to be a direct address), "Its like you have the monk class feature that allows you to jump as far as you want, but for you it only applies to conclusions."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hyperbole. 😉

The Dovin Basal thing may or may not be chump change - but the "feat" you just quoted, is Counterfeit. 😛

sorry, i'm taking the novel's quote over your weak dismissal.

Only that can easily be considered narrative hyperbole.

Not that I condone Battlemaster's attempt at "debating" in this thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only that can easily be considered narrative hyperbole.

Not that I condone Battlemaster's attempt at "debating" in this thread.

👆

Gideon made a convincing case for the quote to be hyperbolic, but UnuThul was utterly impotent against Luke in this scenario. And when you consider that he had the entire Force potential of the Colony to draw upon (I believe the numbers provided by Borbarad and others put those to be in the millions or billions), the quote is renewed with a profound sense of literalism.

Originally posted by Q99
That's... not really a good description.

Cade had both near-complete Jedi training, plus months of Sith training, plus a lot of bounty hunter experience. And like Luke, he picked up skill really fast. He started out the series rusty, but was fighting on the level of Jedi masters in no-time.

And, I should note, Cade never was his match in combat and never beat him in a duel. Cade was able to put up a fight in the final battle (after Cade had been fighting Sith and Jedi and Imperial Knights for something like two years strait), but even then Krayt literally did kill him in the fight and if it wasn't for Krayt healing him so he could turn him, that would've been it, game over, Krayt win. The first time they fought, the only reason Cade even escaped was because Krayt was shot in the back.

The only person in the series who was really able to go power-to-power with Krayt was Celeste Morne, a KotoR era Jedi Master who was empowered by Karness Muur, one of the original Hundred Year's Darkness Sith Lords (and I'll note- Morne was still solidly outmatched before Muur took the driver's seat).

Darth Wyyrlok, Krayt's second (and slayer of ancient sith Darth Andeddu), put up some fight too, but was beaten at his own speciality.

I mean, Krayt's 80 years older by the time of his series than when he helped Luke, but still, guy's a badass. Even before he got any Sith training, only his Jedi skills, he was a near-match for Obi-wan.

Oh yea, and at one point he solo'd a Vong warship, unarmed 🙂 Broke free from restraints, killed all the Vong, escaped as it blew up.

tl;dr

Originally posted by Nephthys
tl;dr

Short version: He's badass, strong, and well worthy of the title Dark Lord of the Sith.

Cade's also more skilled than you think and gets a lot more dangerous as the story goes on, but he never gets to Krayt's level.

Legacy people have met and fought with various people of different eras and performed well.

Originally posted by ares834
But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me. But alas, then we must then do this with everything he states.

Sounds reasonable to me.