Originally posted by Q99
Short version: He's badass, strong, and well worthy of the title Dark Lord of the Sith.Cade's also more skilled than you think and gets a lot more dangerous as the story goes on, but he never gets to Krayt's level.
Legacy people have met and fought with various people of different eras and performed well.
I did some research on Krayt and he does seem deadly.
Where would you stack him in the pantheon of Sith Lords, in terms of power and skill?
Originally posted by ares834
And in this case he is wrong. But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me.
No, in this case, he is quite right and I'm glad for his insight.
- and I know somewhere, Gideon is looking down upon us, happy. 😉
Originally posted by ares834
Why should I prove that he isn't? I never said he wasn't on the planet during detention, only that no source confirms such. Furthermore, Google is not a canon source.
So nothing that can be found on Google is a Canon source? Wow, I guess that rules out every website.
But, if you aren't saying he wasn't on the planet during the end of the war, then I suppose we have nothing to argue about. 😎
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I did some research on Krayt and he does seem deadly.Where would you stack him in the pantheon of Sith Lords, in terms of power and skill?
After his rebirth I'd say he's up there with some of the very strongest, definitely Bane tier and such.
Pre-rebirth, when he still has his Vong growths, he's a rung or two down from that, but still dangerous.
Fought as equals? Where is that coming from? They fought together true, but that doesn't mean they were equals. As for Cade, what feats imply that he is one of the strongest?
Basically, at the end of the day Krayt doesn't have any impressive feats with his lightning, telekinesis, or sabers. Sure, he may have discovered some cool techniques but most aren't all that useful in a fight.
Originally posted by ares834
Fought as equals? Where is that coming from? They fought together true, but that doesn't mean they were equals.
I agree, but carrying his weight in a duel against a stronger-than-Luke foe still shows power and skill. A weak force user would've just been killed by Abeloth and tossed aside. Even many fairly strong force users would've fallen at some point.
The Krayt who fought Abeloth was not peak Krayt, mind. That was Krayt only two decades after he finished training under XoXaan and got his Vong growths. Peak Krayt is 90 years later after having passed through death to learn Dark Transfer and no longer having to use any effort to overcome the growths.
Also Abeloth related- Jacen had a vision of Krayt ruling the galaxy much much sooner than he did in canon and corrupting Allana, and turned Sith to try and prevent that. Or to put it another way, Jacen thought if it wasn't for his actions, Krayt would've taken over while many of the NJO Jedi badasses would still be alive and kicking.
As for Cade, what feats imply that he is one of the strongest?
Well he was able to take on multiple masters at a time on several occasions, threw small starships around even when rusty, used shatterpoints, raised the dead, used a TK bubble to protect himself and Deliah Blue from a large explosion when Maladi's base blew up pretty casually, was very good at sensing things others couldn't and getting visions...
Basically, at the end of the day Krayt doesn't have any impressive feats with his lightning, telekinesis, or sabers. Sure, he may have discovered some cool techniques but most aren't all that useful in a fight.
He has impressive saber feats. Aside from fighting Obi-Wan in his youth and having the edge in sabers, he slew 4 Imperial Knights in moments when they had him surrounded and attacked first. He fought Celeste Morne empowered by Karness Muur in a lightning duel as well (Morne and Muur are one of the big cross-era indicators- they interacted with multiple eras. Vader felt that with Muur he could've dethrowned Palpatine but his big worry was being overcome by Muur's spirit in the process. Muur also indicated his power + Morne's would've been plenty to beat Vader. You get the idea).
And he does have strong force illusion feats- Wyyrlok was able to kill Andeddu with his illusions, and Krayt overcame Wyyrlok's.
TK he doesn't use much except for the occasional shove in saber combat, but there's no sign he's weak.
Originally posted by Q99
I agree, but carrying his weight in a duel against a stronger-than-Luke foe still shows power and skill. A weak force user would've just been killed by Abeloth and tossed aside. Even many fairly strong force users would've fallen at some point.
Not necessarily true. Consider Johun Othane in the duel on Tython. This guy was one of the least skilled named Jedi and yet Bane wasn't able to kill him in their duel (until Zannah helped) because of Bane's other opponents. My point is that simply being there and helping Luke doesn't mean it is an uber feat.
Originally posted by Q99
Well he was able to take on multiple masters at a time on several occasions, threw small starships around even when rusty, used shatterpoints, raised the dead, used a TK bubble to protect himself and Deliah Blue from a large explosion when Maladi's base blew up pretty casually, was very good at sensing things others couldn't and getting visions...
All well and good but that's still a far way from Mace Windu, Revan, Yoda, etc...
Edit: I'm talking about combat.
Originally posted by Q99 He has impressive saber feats. Aside from fighting Obi-Wan in his youth and having the edge in sabers,
No he didn't. Obi-Wan beat him in the duel and chopped off Krayt's arm...
Originally posted by Q99
he slew 4 Imperial Knights in moments when they had him surrounded and attacked first.
None of whom have feats and are fodder. Jango Fett kills several Jedi with his bare hands in Open Season. Are we then going to assume he is on Bane's level when it comes to close combat?
Originally posted by Q99
He fought Celeste Morne empowered by Karness Muur in a lightning duel as well
They never had a prolonged duel. When Muur takes control all that happens is that Krayt shoots lightning at Muur. Muur deflects it. Then Azlyn stabs Krayt in the back.
Originally posted by Q99
(Morne and Muur are one of the big cross-era indicators- they interacted with multiple eras. Vader felt that with Muur he could've dethrowned Palpatine but his big worry was being overcome by Muur's spirit in the process. Muur also indicated his power + Morne's would've been plenty to beat Vader. You get the idea).
There is no indication that Muur actually believes he can defeat Vader in an actual duel. He tells Morne that she "must accept his power" and when Morne uses the amulet to turn all of Vader's Sotrm troopers into Rakghouls he says "that power is mine". The implication, that Muur could defeat Vader not in a duel but by turning Vader's troops into Sith Spawn... Which is what basically happens in the end.
Originally posted by Q99
And he does have strong force illusion feats- Wyyrlok was able to kill Andeddu with his illusions, and Krayt overcame Wyyrlok's.
I'll admit that he is talented at illusions. But other than that he doesn't have much going for him. I mean, Andeddu's holocron even manages to temporarily own him.
If Krayt was so inferior to other characters, he would die right at the beginning, when Abeloth started fight with Force lightning.
How many characters were shown able to tank lightning? Very few. And Abeloth was more powerful, than any Sith, her lightning is likely to be the most potent in the mythos.
Also, Jacen after fight stated something like "He is stronger, he's got the darkside".
And lets not forget, who's descendant Cade was, he has many lightsaber feats and, yet, wasn't as good as Krayt in combat.
Also, your example of Bane unable to defeat a featless Jedi without help plays against your case. 🙂
In any case Krayt from FotJ and forward was the most powerful Sith in the galaxy along with Cade being the most powerful Jedi. I don't see any reason to put way bellow standard either of them.
Originally posted by ares834
Not necessarily true. Consider Johun Othane in the duel on Tython. This guy was one of the least skilled named Jedi and yet Bane wasn't able to kill him in their duel (until Zannah helped) because of Bane's other opponents. My point is that simply being there and helping Luke doesn't mean it is an uber feat.
He wasn't exactly being covered for by Luke, he was in the thick the whole time. Abeloth tried to blast them both off, both resisted.
Johun Othane actively hindered Sarro Xaj (when the numerical odds were even more in their favor, 5:2), who had to work to protect him, while Krayt was a major boon against Abeloth.
Simply being there isn't a major feat, contributing heavily and being in the front where he took multiple attacks and kept coming is.
All well and good but that's still a far way from Mace Windu, Revan, Yoda, etc...Edit: I'm talking about combat.
Well, Cade isn't on their level, yea. He's not on Krayt's either.
He's still a very dangerous fighter.
No he didn't. Obi-Wan beat him in the duel and chopped off Krayt's arm...
Krayt had the edge in sabers until Obi-wan used the force to blow his arm off with a nasty force-push.
None of whom have feats and are fodder. Jango Fett kills several Jedi with his bare hands in Open Season. Are we then going to assume he is on Bane's level when it comes to close combat?
But Jango did not start out surrounded and he didn't win in roughly the same time it took Palpatine to beat Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar (without the surprise factor). Nor do I think the Jedi that Jango killed were masters. These were four Imperial Knights left there specifically as a trap, lead by the Emperor's cousin.
How it is done still counts.
And note when I say Bane's level, I mean overall when he's at his peak- that is, with self-healing, shatterpoints, kill-if-he-gets-a-hand-on-you Dark Transfer, illusions, and all that.
They never had a prolonged duel. When Muur takes control all that happens is that Krayt shoots lightning at Muur. Muur deflects it. Then Azlyn stabs Krayt in the back.
Didn't they beam-of-war for a bit?
*Checks* Guess not, Azlyn stabbed sooner than I thought.
I'll admit that he is talented at illusions. But other than that he doesn't have much going for him. I mean, Andeddu's holocron even manages to temporarily own him.
Not really, Andeddu's holocron (which, btw, contained his full spirit, and was not just a holocron) temporarily made his vong symbionts grow and then he forced them back. And even Wyyrlok was able to more than handle Andeddu.
Originally posted by Arhael
If Krayt was so inferior to other characters, he would die right at the beginning, when Abeloth started fight with Force lightning./quote]Not necessarily true. Furthermore, characters who are greatly inferior to Luke like Ben and Vestra survived encounters with her.
[QUOTE=13927270]Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Jacen after fight stated something like "He is stronger, he's got the darkside".
He states "Sith are stronger. They have the dark side." And this is proven wrong time and time again.
Originally posted by Arhael
And lets not forget, who's descendant Cade was, he has many lightsaber feats and, yet, wasn't as good as Krayt in combat.
So being a Skywalker is an automatic pass to being a superjedi? No, it's not.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, your example of Bane unable to defeat a featless Jedi without help plays against your case. 🙂
Then the point went completely over your head. Bane is way beyond Johun. But he was unable to defeat him because Johun's companions were formidable enough to keep Bane from breaking through Johun's defenses.
Originally posted by Arhael
In any case Krayt from FotJ and forward was the most powerful Sith in the galaxy along with Cade being the most powerful Jedi. I don't see any reason to put way bellow standard either of them.
Simply being the most powerful of one's era does not mean they are as powerful as those of other eras.
Originally posted by ares834
So being a Skywalker is an automatic pass to being a superjedi? No, it's not.
When combined with training and lots of experience and knowledge of strong force powers it tends to be...
Then the point went completely over your head. Bane is way beyond Johun. But he was unable to defeat him because Johun's companions were formidable enough to keep Bane from breaking through Johun's defenses.
I think you missed my point: Johun's companions were actively working to defend him and make that the case, Bane barely spared any effort for him. Krayt's companion was not, and Abeloth attacked him about as much as Luke. Johun also didn't add anything to the fight to speak of, Luke couldn't have won without Krayt, etc..
It seems to me like you're talking about a hypothetical two-on-one battle, rather than the one where we saw Krayt perform impressively.
Simply being the most powerful of one's era does not mean they are as powerful as those of other eras.
No, but there's no reason to simply assume they're much weaker, not when there's no cause to.
Originally posted by Q99
Johun Othane actively hindered Sarro Xaj (when the numerical odds were even more in their favor, 5:2), who had to work to protect him, while Krayt was a major boon against Abeloth.
I'm talking about when Johun battled Bane with Rastka and Farfalla. In fact, the text notes that Rastka is skilled enough to make Johun an asset.
Originally posted by Q99
Simply being there isn't a major feat, contributing heavily and being in the front where he took multiple attacks and kept coming is.
Yet, Luke did most of the heavy lifting. He held down Abeloth giving Krayt the opportunity to drain and he was the one who killed her.
Originally posted by Q99
Well, Cade isn't on their level, yea. He's not on Krayt's either.He's still a very dangerous fighter.
I'd agree.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt had the edge in sabers until Obi-wan used the force to blow his arm off with a nasty force-push.
According to Jan (the artist) he cut it off.
http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0
Originally posted by Q99 But Jango did not start out surrounded and he didn't win in roughly the same time it took Palpatine to beat Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar (without the surprise factor). Nor do I think the Jedi that Jango killed were masters. These were four Imperial Knights left there specifically as a trap, lead by the Emperor's cousin.How it is done still counts.
Even if they were left there specifically as a trap, attributing them "master status" is flawed. And my point still stands, they don't have feats. Sure they could be master swordsmen or they could make Colemen Trebor look good.
Originally posted by Q99
Not really, Andeddu's holocron (which, btw, contained his full spirit, and was not just a holocron) temporarily made his vong symbionts grow and then he forced them back. And even Wyyrlok was able to more than handle Andeddu.
As I claimed in my initial post it was temporarily. Anyway for a comparison, when Bane gets a hold of the holocron he utterly dominates Andeddu's spirit and force the Andeddu to show him all his secrets.
Originally posted by Q99
When combined with training and lots of experience and knowledge of strong force powers it tends to be...
I find relying on feats rather than heritage works better.
Originally posted by Q99
I think you missed my point: Johun's companions were actively working to defend him and make that the case, Bane barely spared any effort for him. Krayt's companion was not, and Abeloth attacked him about as much as Luke. Johun also didn't add anything to the fight to speak of, Luke couldn't have won without Krayt, etc..
I'm not saying he was useless, but rather that being present at the fight doesn't somehow make him Luke's equal. Anyway, once Abeloth turns her full attention to Krayt she strikes him down.
Originally posted by Q99
No, but there's no reason to simply assume they're much weaker, not when there's no cause to.
Sure there is. He doesn't have the feats to hang with them.
I am just going to address a couple things here, too lazy to quote:
Being a Skywalker pretty much is a free pass to being a superjedi. You just have to get the training first.
The point about Johun is valid, Raskta and Farfalla were the only reason he lasted longer than half a second. He was taken down by non-Force sensitives (when he was escorting that guy on that platform.... A Twi'lek nearly brought him down for good)
I like bacon.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Nihilus would beat him up. estahuhAlso, Battlemaster, if you believe Luke used the Dovin Basal, you should probably endeavor toward proving that. With, you know, evidence.
I'm just saying.
Gideon's expert insight in that particular area is good enough for me.
I couldn't have put it better myself. 😉
Originally posted by Q99
After his rebirth I'd say he's up there with some of the very strongest, definitely Bane tier and such.Pre-rebirth, when he still has his Vong growths, he's a rung or two down from that, but still dangerous.
I was thinking that, too..
He does lose to Peak Obi-Wan - but that was when he was younger - and he got better after time passed.
After all his kills and experience, Krayt could probably defeat Peak Obi-wan after he peaked in power and skill, later on.
Seems like Pre-rebirth Krayt is perhaps on par with TPM Mace and Post-Rebirth Krayt is on par with Vader?
Mm, rough estimates of course. I'd need to do more research on the man.