Abeloth -vs- Darth Nihilus

Originally posted by Q99
I've provided plenty of examples and he's performed well against a variety of strong foes, so I'd argue I have.

There doesn't seem to be anything that indicates he's lower.

His combat feats pale in comparison. Losing to Obi-Wan and dealing damage to Abeloth don't match Bane's feats such as his outrageous rain feat.

Originally posted by Q99
And his 'revive from the dead / kill people with a touch / yadda yadda'? Bane's attempts at healing pale in comparison to that.

Which won't be much help in a fight.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, Bane has stronger lightning. That's his speciality. Krayt has Dark Transfer and stronger Force Illusions, where he's more specialized. Different high-level sith lords are strong in different areas.

Don't forget Bane also has better lightsaber skills and telekinesis. Ultimately, Bane is far more adept at martial combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, Neph. Tell him how Palpatine puts Nihilus to shame. 😛

They're definitely on the same tier imo. If Palpatines less powerful incarnation is more than a match for Starkiller, his most powerful one is clearly a cut above even that. People don't think Palpatine is the Most Powerful Sith Lord based just off those quotes, he has boatloads of supporting evidence. DE Palpatine is Nihilus-tier for sure imo, and definately frickin' Vitiate-tier.

Originally posted by ares834
His combat feats pale in comparison. Losing to Obi-Wan and dealing damage to Abeloth don't match Bane's feats such as his outrageous rain feat.

Again, you're talking about how his weak forms aren't there yet. Which is, well, duh.

Being near Peak Obi-wan in dueling skill is impressive. He then proceeded to get sith training which made him stronger, a century's worth of experience which made him stronger, passed beyond the veil of life and death, which made him noticeably stronger, and learned to raise the dead- something I'll note both Plageuis and Sidious wanted to be able to do but never achieved.

And for Bane's combat prowess with a lightsaber since you mention the rain feat, it's not like multiple other people of his time weren't on his level in sabers, and the Clone War era that Krayt is from is known for having some of the best duelists ever. Yes, Bane is good in sabers and his rain feat is crazy, but in his actual performance against other Jedi or Sith he doesn't really stand above Krayt.

Which won't be much help in a fight.

It's quite useful in fights, he's used it before after all. And it's based on advanced knowledge of shatterpoints, which are very combat useful themselves.

Don't forget Bane also has better lightsaber skills and telekinesis. Ultimately, Bane is far more adept at martial combat.

Eh, you're pretty much just assuming that. Krayt's got a long list of fights where he shows himself to be not far from the top even in his weaker versions.

Sabers, close. Lightning, Bane (but Krayt's shown himself quite good at defending against lightning). Illusion, Krayt. Shatterpoints/dark transfer, Krayt. TK, Bane, I think.

A fight between them would be epic and close.

To be fair Bane does seem to be better at the more important and useful ones (lightning, TK, Force Speed etc.).

Originally posted by Q99
Again, you're talking about how his weak forms aren't there yet. Which is, well, duh.

?

Originally posted by Q99
Being near Peak Obi-wan in dueling skill is impressive. He then proceeded to get sith training which made him stronger, a century's worth of experience which made him stronger, passed beyond the veil of life and death, which made him noticeably stronger, and learned to raise the dead- something I'll note both Plageuis and Sidious wanted to be able to do but never achieved.

Being near Obi-Wan is impressive, I'm not denying that. But it doesn't put him in Bane's league that's more around Dooku's.

And Plageuis learned how to raise the dead. In fact, he did it to Venamis multiple times.

Originally posted by Q99
And for Bane's combat prowess with a lightsaber since you mention the rain feat, it's not like multiple other people of his time weren't on his level in sabers, and the Clone War era that Krayt is from is known for having some of the best duelists ever. Yes, Bane is good in sabers and his rain feat is crazy, but in his actual performance against other Jedi or Sith he doesn't really stand above Krayt.

That would mean you to believe that the character's Bane crossed blades with are equivalent with those than Krayt battled. Which doesn't have to be the case. And the reason I use the rain feat is because it is far more quantifiable then his duels with other Jedi/Sith, but those are impressive as well.

Originally posted by Q99
It's quite useful in fights, he's used it before after all. And it's based on advanced knowledge of shatterpoints, which are very combat useful themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only time he used it was in his duel with Cade when Cade was pretty much already defeated... And it ended up giving Cade the time to strike down Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
Sabers, close. Lightning, Bane (but Krayt's shown himself quite good at defending against lightning). Illusion, Krayt. Shatterpoints/dark transfer, Krayt. TK, Bane, I think.

And the ones most relevant to fighting (saber, TK, and lightning) are the ones Bane has an advantage in.

Haha, you had to replace speed with saber didn't you lol. 😂

It's like when Q99 didn't say Naga Sadow and had to say "arguably" DE Sidious.

You guys cna admit the fact that you are using ym arguyments as inspiration you know. 😄

I didn't even think of Naga, honestly.

Originally posted by ares834
?

Being near Obi-Wan is impressive, I'm not denying that. But it doesn't put him in Bane's league that's more around Dooku's.

Yea, that's near Dooku's. He was also maybe 30 at the time, or 70 when he fought Abeloth, when he reaches his peak when he's around 160. 30 years of Sith training, many more years of experience, then an event that greatly increased his power.

I mean, it's like saying "Mace Windu shouldn't be rated too highly. He wasn't that strong before he learned shatterpoints and Vaapad!".

You don't rate post-Vaapad Windu as the same as pre-Vaapad. You don't rate Grand Master Luke as RotJ Luke. You don't rate Anakin as Ep2 Anakin.

So why are you rating Krayt as if his badass-but-well-before-his-peak feats as if they were the max rather than a starting point?

If you're rating him as Dooku based on those feats, well, he had a lot more experience and an event that greatly increased his power!

And Plageuis learned how to raise the dead. In fact, he did it to Venamis multiple times.

Hm, didn't know that. Still, never did it to himself. Krayt's still got the edge there.

And Palpatine never did manage it. If he had Krayt's skill his clone degradation in Dark Empire wouldn't have been a big deal.

That would mean you to believe that the character's Bane crossed blades with are equivalent with those than Krayt battled. Which doesn't have to be the case. And the reason I use the rain feat is because it is far more quantifiable then his duels with other Jedi/Sith, but those are impressive as well.

Rain doesn't exactly translate into dueling, not when we have actual dueling to compare and see that while he's very very powerful, he doesn't dominate. Two of the Jedi who came to kill him and Zannah were pretty similar in level.

And A'Sharad's from the clone war-on era. We know more about his opponents than we do Bane's, and it is an era that put a lot of emphasis on lightsaber skill.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only time he used it was in his duel with Cade when Cade was pretty much already defeated... And it ended up giving Cade the time to strike down Krayt.

It's how he defeated Cade, Cade was healthy and fighting until he did it.

And it didn't give Cade time- bringing Cade back from the dead is what did that. Krayt literally killed Cade and brought him back during that duel as a means to turn him.

He doesn't exactly have a reason to bring Bane back if he got an opportunity when they fought (just saying 'if,' but the threat is there).

And the ones most relevant to fighting (saber, TK, and lightning) are the ones Bane has an advantage in.

Shatterpoints aren't relevant to fighting? Illusions which can leave someone helpless and can be done while dueling aren't relevant? Defense against lightning isn't relevant?

Seems to me that you're deciding what's relevant based on pre decided result rather than what's relevant.

Naga Sadow is arguably most powerful of them all, that is with amulet at least, imo. He was able to blow up a sun with a gesture in one of the TotJ comics, it was in a flashback IIRC.

I always forget that Sadow had the haxxed amulet before Kun did.

But he blew up that sun with the help of his meditation sphere/ship.

No he used those for the illusions to blow up the sun all he had to do was clench his fist and his amulet did the work.

I guess there is possibility that his ship was darkside nexus or whatever but i honestly think people need to stop focudisng on those details. You do something incredibl, its pretty impressive no matter where you are imo.

Question: what is more powerful, a supernova or a wormhole?

No, it really does matter where you are. Many of the nexus' facilitate easier access to their attuned side of the Force. They tend to improve reactions, precision, and they also allow greater amounts of power to be used before the user succumbs to Force Exhaustion.

Not sure how many times Sadow caused stellar disasters, but this is what The Official Star Wars Fact File #98 has to say:

Originally posted by Pwned
No, it really does matter where you are. Many of the nexus' facilitate easier access to their attuned side of the Force. They tend to improve reactions, precision, and they also allow greater amounts of power to be used before the user succumbs to Force Exhaustion.

My point is, a weakling isn;lt going to suddenly be able to blow up stars just becvause he is on a force enxus bro.

No, but a weakling would be able to fight people significantly more powerful than him with little problem.

Besides, your talking a meditation sphere, amulets, and prep. Thats not as impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
I didn't even think of Naga, honestly.

Yea, that's near Dooku's. He was also maybe 30 at the time, or 70 when he fought Abeloth, when he reaches his peak when he's around 160. 30 years of Sith training, many more years of experience, then an event that greatly increased his power.

I mean, it's like saying "Mace Windu shouldn't be rated too highly. He wasn't that strong before he learned shatterpoints and Vaapad!".

You don't rate post-Vaapad Windu as the same as pre-Vaapad. You don't rate Grand Master Luke as RotJ Luke. You don't rate Anakin as Ep2 Anakin.

So why are you rating Krayt as if his badass-but-well-before-his-peak feats as if they were the max rather than a starting point?

If you're rating him as Dooku based on those feats, well, he had a lot more experience and an event that greatly increased his power!

I'm not saying he is on Dooku's level merely based on that. However, after this duel Krayt never displays any greater saber feats. All those examples you posted however have.

I view it more like I view Palpatine, I'm not going to say RotJ Sids is vastly superior is saber than RotS Sids. Yes, Krayt's power increased but not necessarily his blade skill.

Originally posted by Q99
Rain doesn't exactly translate into dueling, not when we have actual dueling to compare and see that while he's very very powerful, he doesn't dominate. Two of the Jedi who came to kill him and Zannah were pretty similar in level.

The rain feat shows us Bane incredible speed and reaction speed. And it's far in excess of anything Krayt has displayed.

Originally posted by Q99
And A'Sharad's from the clone war-on era. We know more about his opponents than we do Bane's, and it is an era that put a lot of emphasis on lightsaber skill.

Bane's era focused on the saber even more so than A'Sharad's. So I'm not seeing the relevance there. Regardless, A'Sharad may be from the Jedi's Golden Age but that doesn't make him inherently superior to Bane nor does it make his opponents.

Originally posted by Q99
It's how he defeated Cade, Cade was healthy and fighting until he did it.

And it didn't give Cade time- bringing Cade back from the dead is what did that. Krayt literally killed Cade and brought him back during that duel as a means to turn him.

Ah my bad, he uses it to defeat Cade and then bring him back to life... However, he was still forced to get past Cade's defenses and forced to place a hand on Cade to perform the technique. Truthfully, he would be probably better off just used his second lightsaber (assuming he want's to kill and not capture of course).

Originally posted by Q99
Shatterpoints aren't relevant to fighting? Illusions which can leave someone helpless and can be done while dueling aren't relevant?

Not as relevant as the others. Shatterpoint only become really relevant in a saber duel when you can use it at the level of Windu and find the shatterpoints of the duel itself. Knowing that your opponents temple is a weakspot won't make any difference if you can't slip past his defenses. Illusions though are far more relevant.

Hmm well I'm not sure how to post the scans (maybe Jinsoku Takai could help me with that) but Dark Lords of teh Sith, issue 1, page 6, Naga Sadow does the same thing on a different occasion and he deosnt use the ship, but his own power as a sith mahgician/his amulet.

So Bane killing a few random Jedi and Sith around 1000 years in past is badass feats.
But Krayt killing, Abeloth, Jedi, Sith and Imperial Knights, which happens maximum 80 years later is a featless example?

Plenty of other fighters have dished out high amounts of damage against Abeloth like Saba Sebatyne. Yet, I wouldn't claim she is one of the greatest Jedi ever.

So being a Skywalker is an automatic pass to being a superjedi? No, it's not.

Yet, Luke did most of the heavy lifting. He held down Abeloth giving Krayt the opportunity to drain and he was the one who killed her.

Originally posted by vaderdeljisung
Hmm well I'm not sure how to post the scans (maybe Jinsoku Takai could help me with that) but Dark Lords of teh Sith, issue 1, page 6, Naga Sadow does the same thing on a different occasion and he deosnt use the ship, but his own power as a sith mahgician/his amulet.

Is he in a ship?