Madara Uchiha vs Monster Aizen

^ That would be correct if it weren't for the fact that Yamamoto fell under it too. By Aizen's own admission Yamamoto had more reiatsu than Aizen which kind of kills your argument there.

So far there are only two ways to prevent Aizen's shikai from working. Either don't see its release form or touch it while the shikai is active as both Gin, Isshin, and Yamamoto have demonstrated.

Sure Madara would still win as of recent feats but he has not real defense against Kyoka Suigetsu if he looks at it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So show me the explanation. Unless... Are you talking about the water-particle reflection thing? You're aware that he only said that to trick everyone to keep his hypnosis shikai a secret, right?

In fact, Aizen also did briefly explain how it works.

Here, you see he says there is an initiation condition to activate Kyoka's hypnosis. Now, we have only seen a few other Zanpaktou that have initiation conditions. The one bearing closest resemblance to Aizen's, being Soi Fon's. This is because once something happens after releasing their swords, their sword's abilities activate. Aizen's being hypnosis, and Soi Fon's being instant death. For Aizen's, you have to look at his release, and for Soi Fon's, you have to be cut by her in the same place twice. However, we have seen, demonstrated by Aizen, that it's possible to negate a swords effects as long as your energy can overwhelm your opponents. So, since we haven't had a literal description of Aizen's swords functioning, we have to assume it by comparing it to similar abilities from his series.

What this means, is that Aizen has to use his REIATSU to control someone, meaning just like with Soi Fon, IT CAN BE NEGATED WITH HIGHER ENERGY. Energy=Destructive capacity, SO while Madara has sharingan which I've just proven he can see through Kyoka with, he could easily shatter it with his raw energy.

Otherwise, show me a specific scan saying Kyoka can hypnotize anyone no matter what, unlike any other sword ability.

Until then, Madara wins. 👆

Yama jii's encounter with kyoka debunks what your saying about higher energy breaking it.

Originally posted by chasedown
Yama jii's encounter with kyoka debunks what your saying about higher energy breaking it.

Show me ONE time when Yama was stronger than Aizen.

Go on, I'm waiting.

Scans, or it didn't happen. 👆

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
^ That would be correct if it weren't for the fact that Yamamoto fell under it too. By Aizen's own admission Yamamoto had more reiatsu than Aizen which kind of kills your argument there.

So far there are only two ways to prevent Aizen's shikai from working. Either don't see its release form or touch it while the shikai is active as both Gin, Isshin, and Yamamoto have demonstrated.

Sure Madara would still win as of recent feats but he has not real defense against Kyoka Suigetsu if he looks at it.

That was never stated or even suggested. Scans, or it didn't happen. 👆

Okay I'm at fault for mentioning reaitsu, misread on my part, but Yamamoto was still above Aizen and the first person to actually exploit Kyoka Suigetsu's weakness.

Fact of the matter is that Aizen's shikai worked on someone more powerful than him. Heck even back during the "Turn back the Pendulum" arc Aizen's shikai worked on people that were stronger than him at the time.

Madara would still win but he can't just see through Kyoka Suigetsu due to its ability to manipulate all 5 senses. Also the sharingan's visual prowess isn't absolute as proven by Madara himself.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

Okay I'm at fault for mentioning reaitsu, misread on my part, but Yamamoto was still above Aizen and the first person to actually exploit Kyoka Suigetsu's weakness.

Fact of the matter is that Aizen's shikai worked on someone more powerful than him. Heck even back during the "Turn back the Pendulum" arc Aizen's shikai worked on people that were stronger than him at the time.

Madara would still win but he can't just see through Kyoka Suigetsu due to its ability to manipulate all 5 senses. Also the sharingan's visual prowess isn't absolute as proven by Madara himself.

All Aizen said was that Yamamoto's sword abilities MIGHT exceed his own abilities. You're forgetting that Kyoka suigetsu isn't even an offensive Zanpaktou. Ichigo's sword is stronger than it, but until Ichigo got ridiculously more powerful than Aizen, he would have been shat on by Aizen because of Kyoka. The reason Yama was the first was because no one was comparable to them at that point, let alone stronger.

Uh, when? When did Aizen's shikai work on someone stronger than him? Let alone to the extent of how vastly superior he was to Soi Fon, or how Ichigo was to him. The fact that he didn't use it on Ichigo further supports what I said.

If you wanna talk about hypnosis feats, let's talk about Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi can control not just all five senses of someone stronger than you other than a sharingan user, but also that persons perception of time, pain, reality, mass, matter, and even physics, to the point where someone effected by it can be killed or have their mind completely destroyed in the instant they make eye contact. Even Sasuke broke out of it. Madara would have no trouble. It being so similar to Kyoka FURTHER supports what I said.

Fact of the matter is, you and chasedown have still failed to show an explanation of Aizen's sword ability, or something to support your statements other than your opinion.

^ When was Ichigo's sword stronger? Until he got the dangai upgrade Ichigo was still weaker than Aizen? Heck during their first clash Aizen stopped his bankai with one finger.

Aizen successfully used his shikai on the vizard captains along with all the other people present at his shikai demonstration including Unohana. Also I'm not sure whether or not you're arguing Aizen is stronger than Yamamoto because I can assure you that Pre-Hogyoku Aizen was still weaker based on feats.

Tsukuyomi's flaw is in that it requires direct eye contact and that it is possible to break out of if. The reason why Itachi's is so potent is because his can affect someone's perception of time. Aizen's shikai operates in that all you have to do is look at the blade and your pretty much under it. Even when you know your under his shikai's effect there's little you can do about it. Also your assuming Madara will see through it even though his own sharingan has been shown to be at fault along with the base sharingan of others as well.

I'm not even sure why you feel so strongly about this since all 3 of us appear to agree that Madara wins.

Do you really think aizen was stronger than yama jii before the hogyoku?

You realize that would mean he had no need for wonderweis.

If aizen was stronger than yama jii why would he go through the trouble of creating a strategy to get rid of him why not just kill everyone back in the ss arc if he was as strong as your insinuating.

You also should realize that yama jii is said to be the strongest being in all of the sereitei more than once. Even juha acknowledged his strength by deciding that he needed to steal his bankai to beat him. Along with juha alluding to the idea that had yama jii healed his other arm the fight between the two might have been different.

Originally posted by chasedown
Do you really think aizen was stronger than yama jii before the hogyoku?

You realize that would mean he had no need for wonderweis.

If aizen was stronger than yama jii why would he go through the trouble of creating a strategy to get rid of him why not just kill everyone back in the ss arc if he was as strong as your insinuating.

You also should realize that yama jii is said to be the strongest being in all of the sereitei more than once. Even juha acknowledged his strength by deciding that he needed to steal his bankai to beat him. Along with juha alluding to the idea that had yama jii healed his other arm the fight between the two might have been different.

Yes. He obviously was much stronger, as he tanked Yama's body sacrificing strongest attack with little more than a few scratches.

He really didn't. All Wonderweiss did was make it easier for him. Plus, he probably knew Yama's bankai would kill him, and that he couldn't beat him without Wonderweiss if he used his bankai.

Strategy? Aizen used the hogyoku to effortlessly create an arrancar designed to negate Yama's ability. Aizen COULD have killed them all. He even said though that he let them all live so they could help Ichigo get stronger, because he wanted to use Ichigo as an experiment.

Uh, Juha Bach COULDN'T steal Yama's bankai. He just defeated it casually. Yama was strong, I'm not denying that. Plus he could have beaten Aizen if he used his bankai, which is why Aizen needed Wonderweiss. However, Aizen was able to shit on Yama when both were just using shikai's.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
^ When was Ichigo's sword stronger? Until he got the dangai upgrade Ichigo was still weaker than Aizen? Heck during their first clash Aizen stopped his bankai with one finger.

Aizen successfully used his shikai on the vizard captains along with all the other people present at his shikai demonstration including Unohana. Also I'm not sure whether or not you're arguing Aizen is stronger than Yamamoto because I can assure you that Pre-Hogyoku Aizen was still weaker based on feats.

Tsukuyomi's flaw is in that it requires direct eye contact and that it is possible to break out of if. The reason why Itachi's is so potent is because his can affect someone's perception of time. Aizen's shikai operates in that all you have to do is look at the blade and your pretty much under it. Even when you know your under his shikai's effect there's little you can do about it. Also your assuming Madara will see through it even though his own sharingan has been shown to be at fault along with the base sharingan of others as well.

I'm not even sure why you feel so strongly about this since all 3 of us appear to agree that Madara wins.

You're forgetting that Aizen's sword isn't even a fighting type, like Ichigo's. Zangetsu is stronger, but Kyoka's ability is more deadly. Similar to... Idk, Kira's sword. While Zangetsu is much stronger, Wabisuke's ability is vastly superior.

I can assure you that Aizen was much stronger. You're forgetting that Aizen tanked Yama's strongest body sacrificing attack without getting even noticeably hurt by it.

Again, I want to stress that Yama would crap on Aizen when using bankai. From what we've seen, Bankai Yama > Shikai Aizen >> Shikai Yama. Aizen took on all of the captains at the same time and casually won without getting TOUCHED. He cut of Toshiro's arm, batted away Shunsui, tanked Soi Fon's insta-kill shikai, and easily shat on all the vizards.

Shikai Yama was fighting on par with just Shunsui and Ukitake. However, Bankai Yama fought on par with the strongest of sternritters. If Aizen had shown a bankai though, he would probably eat Gremmy and Yama at the same time, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're forgetting that Aizen's sword isn't even a fighting type, like Ichigo's. Zangetsu is stronger, but Kyoka's ability is more deadly. Similar to... Idk, Kira's sword. While Zangetsu is much stronger, Wabisuke's ability is vastly superior.

I can assure you that Aizen was much stronger. You're forgetting that Aizen tanked Yama's strongest body sacrificing attack without getting even noticeably hurt by it.

Again, I want to stress that Yama would crap on Aizen when using bankai. From what we've seen, Bankai Yama > Shikai Aizen >> Shikai Yama. Aizen took on all of the captains at the same time and casually won without getting TOUCHED. He cut of Toshiro's arm, batted away Shunsui, tanked Soi Fon's insta-kill shikai, and easily shat on all the vizards.

Shikai Yama was fighting on par with just Shunsui and Ukitake. However, Bankai Yama fought on par with the strongest of sternritters. If Aizen had shown a bankai though, he would probably eat Gremmy and Yama at the same time, lol.

If Aizen was stronger than Ichigo's bankai at that point in time, how can you say that his sword is weaker? Prior to the Dangai-upgrade, Ichigo was still inferior to Aizen.

By that point Aizen was using Hogyoku regen as confirmed when Ichigo attacked him. Also if he were really stronger than Shikai Yamamoto, then there really wouldn't be a need for Wonderweiss in the first place. And considering Yama had just got done tanking a potential city buster prior to his suicide attack, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

So...Yama>>Aizen? which goes to show that his shikai still works on people stronger than him.

That purely speculation. Also considering the fact that Isshin was able to push Aizen to his cocoon state, its unlikely that Yamamoto was inferior to Aizen.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're forgetting that Aizen's sword isn't even a fighting type, like Ichigo's. Zangetsu is stronger, but Kyoka's ability is more deadly. Similar to... Idk, Kira's sword. While Zangetsu is much stronger, Wabisuke's ability is vastly superior.

I can assure you that Aizen was much stronger. You're forgetting that Aizen tanked Yama's strongest body sacrificing attack without getting even noticeably hurt by it.

Again, I want to stress that Yama would crap on Aizen when using bankai. From what we've seen, Bankai Yama > Shikai Aizen >> Shikai Yama. Aizen took on all of the captains at the same time and casually won without getting TOUCHED. He cut of Toshiro's arm, batted away Shunsui, tanked Soi Fon's insta-kill shikai, and easily shat on all the vizards.

Shikai Yama was fighting on par with just Shunsui and Ukitake. However, Bankai Yama fought on par with the strongest of sternritters. If Aizen had shown a bankai though, he would probably eat Gremmy and Yama at the same time, lol.

Lol makes no sense whatsoever so you mean to tell me that because wabisuke has a superior ability kira could put up a fight against ichigo?

If anything aizen fighting wise has the best shikai inthe entire verse weve seen thus far. Yama ji is jus much older,experienced and powerful. Like i said yama has always been regarded as the strongest being in his verse. That is why ppl like aizen and juha have to resort to other methods in order to beat. I.e wonderwiess, and bankai stealing. Yes the real juha stole yama's bankai before he was killed.

We didnt see the yama kyoraku ukitake fight so theres no way of telling how well shunsui and ukitake did.

You realize that yama lost that fight because wonderwiess was going to release the power absorbed from yama's shikai all at once. Yama sacrificed himself to protect others and karakura town from his own power. aizen wouldnt have won had wonderweiss not been there.

That fact cant be argued by speculation because if aizen were stronger then aizen would have fought him head up like he did with all the other captains. That was clearly not the case.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If Aizen was stronger than Ichigo's bankai at that point in time, how can you say that his sword is weaker? Prior to the Dangai-upgrade, Ichigo was still inferior to Aizen.

By that point Aizen was using Hogyoku regen as confirmed when Ichigo attacked him. Also if he were really stronger than Shikai Yamamoto, then there really wouldn't be a need for Wonderweiss in the first place. And considering Yama had just got done tanking a potential city buster prior to his suicide attack, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

So...Yama>>Aizen? which goes to show that his shikai still works on people stronger than him.

That purely speculation. Also considering the fact that Isshin was able to push Aizen to his cocoon state, its unlikely that Yamamoto was inferior to Aizen.

Because Zanpaktou aren't the same as their masters, numb-nut. Why do you think Ichigo lost so often when he had Juha bach as his sword?

No he wasn't.

He didn't use regen until Ichigo cut him with a getsuga. It should be pretty obvious from the feat I gave that Aizen is superior to Yamamoto, considering he casually stomped three times the people Yama did, while one being the same person Yama fought on par with, all at once. If Yama = Shunsui/Ukitake combo, and Aizen >>> Shunsui/Soi Fon/Bankai Toshiro/Hollowfied Vizards, then Aizen is casually > Yamamoto.

That just means Isshin is stronger than Yamamoto. Not hard to believe, honestly, considering he was able to do just as much damage to Aizen as Yama did, by simply flicking the air in front of Aizen. 👆

They kind of are. Also a zanpakuto's ability doesn't effect strength of the wielder. Heck Soi-fon's shikai has a superior ability than...say Byakuya's but that doesn't make her stronger necessarily.

Aizen was fused with the Hogyoku by that point. All Ichigo did was confirm it along with explaining how he survived the suicide attack.

Yamamoto tanked a direct hit from a bankai that was "supposedly" better than anything Kyoraku and Ukitake. Also Yamamoto one-shotting 3 sternritter is better than what Aizen did. Using his fight against Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara would've been a better example.

That's false on accounts that Yamamoto was confirmed to be the strongest shinigami for over 1000 years by multiple people. also the fact that both Bach and Aizen had to prep against Yamamoto proves just how formidable he is. Then there's the sun armor bankai and.....this just turned into Aizen vs Yamamoto didn't it?

Anyway, back on topic, Madara can't just break out of Kyoka Suigetsu due to the fact that a sharingan is not an absolute illusion breaker. He still wins on account of having other feats though.

Uchiha honestly impressed me more than Aizen.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Uchiha honestly impressed me more than Aizen.

Madara himself has been a little lack luster until recent chapters.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
They kind of are. Also a zanpakuto's ability doesn't effect strength of the wielder. Heck Soi-fon's shikai has a superior ability than...say Byakuya's but that doesn't make her stronger necessarily.

Aizen was fused with the Hogyoku by that point. All Ichigo did was confirm it along with explaining how he survived the suicide attack.

Yamamoto tanked a direct hit from a bankai that was "supposedly" better than anything Kyoraku and Ukitake. Also Yamamoto one-shotting 3 sternritter is better than what Aizen did. Using his fight against Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara would've been a better example.

That's false on accounts that Yamamoto was confirmed to be the strongest shinigami for over 1000 years by multiple people. also the fact that both Bach and Aizen had to prep against Yamamoto proves just how formidable he is. Then there's the sun armor bankai and.....this just turned into Aizen vs Yamamoto didn't it?

Anyway, back on topic, Madara can't just break out of Kyoka Suigetsu due to the fact that a sharingan is not an absolute illusion breaker. He still wins on account of having other feats though.

Is that not exactly what I just said? Yes, Ichigo's sword is stronger than Aizens, but that doesn't mean that 1. Aizen's sword doesn't have a way better ability, or 2. Aizen himself isn't a hundred times stronger than Ichigo.

Show me the hogyoku using regen on Aizen before Ichigo cut through Aizen's shoulder.

When did that happen? He also never one-shotted 3 sternritter.

Ah, so I guess that statements>feats, right? Not to mention that no one other than Urahara and Tessai, and the vizards knew how strong Aizen was.

Except sharingan IS an absolute illusion breaker. You neglected the feat of Sasuke using his raw power behind his sharingan to break out of tsukiyomi. As long as you have sharingan, and are stronger than the caster, you can break out of ANY illusion. This is fact. Either give me proof, or stop throwing around these baseless statements. Madara CASUALLY breaks out of Aizen's shikai, without even mangekyo sharingan, and as a child.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Is that not exactly what I just said? Yes, Ichigo's sword is stronger than Aizens, but that doesn't mean that 1. Aizen's sword doesn't have a way better ability, or 2. Aizen himself isn't a hundred times stronger than Ichigo.

Show me the hogyoku using regen on Aizen before Ichigo cut through Aizen's shoulder.

When did that happen? He also never one-shotted 3 sternritter.

Ah, so I guess that statements>feats, right? Not to mention that no one other than Urahara and Tessai, and the vizards knew how strong Aizen was.

Except sharingan IS an absolute illusion breaker. You neglected the feat of Sasuke using his raw power behind his sharingan to break out of tsukiyomi. As long as you have sharingan, and are stronger than the caster, you can break out of ANY illusion. This is fact. Either give me proof, or stop throwing around these baseless statements. Madara CASUALLY breaks out of Aizen's shikai, without even mangekyo sharingan, and as a child.

Dude on more than one occasion yamamoto is said to be the strongest being in the verse you cant dispute that fact with speculation.It is also by backed up by the fact that nobody has ever fought him head up. Its always a first option when fighting yama to find a way to seal his power and use it against him. Both aizen and yama were forced to find round about ways to defeat him.

Sharingan doesnt break genjutsu on its own its a tool that helps the user break genjutsu it is only as strong as the user. Again kyoka works differently than genjutsu does so madara would have no way of SEEING thru it. Especially if SIGHT is one of the FIVE senses that it controls.

Kyoka does not insert the users enegy into its opponents unless you can find a statement that says so anything you say to argur that fact is pure speculation. FACTS are inargueable.

Originally posted by chasedown
Dude on more than one occasion yamamoto is said to be the strongest being in the verse you cant dispute that fact with speculation.It is also by backed up by the fact that nobody has ever fought him head up. Its always a first option when fighting yama to find a way to seal his power and use it against him. Both aizen and yama were forced to find round about ways to defeat him.

Sharingan doesnt break genjutsu on its own its a tool that helps the user break genjutsu it is only as strong as the user. Again kyoka works differently than genjutsu does so madara would have no way of SEEING thru it. Especially if SIGHT is one of the FIVE senses that it controls.

Kyoka does not insert the users enegy into its opponents unless you can find a statement that says so anything you say to argur that fact is pure speculation. FACTS are inargueable.

And? That statement is backed up by nothing BUT what you just accused me of using, lol. Aizen casually shat on Yama without lifting a finger, lol. Not to mention that Yama was weaker than the team of vizards, according to Shinji, and Aizen casually shit-stomped them.

SHARINGAN ISN'T NORMAL SIGHT, DUMB ASS. According to Deidara, his microscopic bombs were invisible to the human eye, but Sasuke could see it more clear than a cloud of smoke coming towards him. Show me Aizen overpowering a Sharingan. I can show the opposite, so go on. I'll wait. You're giving Aizen abilities he doesn't have because you don't want to admit you're wrong. AGAIN, EITHER SHOW ME AIZEN EXPLAINING HOW HIS SWORD WORKS, OR SHUT YOUR MOUTH, WHORE.

SO GIVE ME FACTS, DUMB ASS. Since you still haven't shown anything disproving me about Aizen's shikai, other than what? You guessed it, SPECULATION, YOU ARE WRONG.

👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
And? That statement is backed up by nothing BUT what you just accused me of using, lol. Aizen casually shat on Yama without lifting a finger, lol. Not to mention that Yama was weaker than the team of vizards, according to Shinji, and Aizen casually shit-stomped them.

SHARINGAN ISN'T NORMAL SIGHT, DUMB ASS. According to Deidara, his microscopic bombs were invisible to the human eye, but Sasuke could see it more clear than a cloud of smoke coming towards him. Show me Aizen overpowering a Sharingan. I can show the opposite, so go on. I'll wait. You're giving Aizen abilities he doesn't have because you don't want to admit you're wrong. AGAIN, EITHER SHOW ME AIZEN EXPLAINING HOW HIS SWORD WORKS, OR SHUT YOUR MOUTH, WHORE.

SO GIVE ME FACTS, DUMB ASS. Since you still haven't shown anything disproving me about Aizen's shikai, other than what? You guessed it, SPECULATION, YOU ARE WRONG.

👆

How exactly am i going to show you kyoka vs sharingan? I simply gave you facts about how techniques work and based on those Facts explained to you why sharingan wouldnt be able to SEE through it. Enganced sight or not sight is still on of our five senses if you take both sharigan out of madara hes be blind. Aizen would be able to control what madara sees whether you like it or not.

Do i really have to show you a part 1 explanation of genjutsu? Its so basic that you should remember.

What ability did i give aizen that he doesnt have?

You just posted scans yourself of aizen explaining how his sword works even though you skipped a few parts. and nowhere does he say i insert my energy into my opponents.

Aizen never seriously hurt yama ji with his own power so he definitely didnt shit on him go watch it again yourself. Yama was defeated because he took the full brunt of his own power released from wonderweiss. Yama and gin are the only two ppl to break out of kyoka by touching his sword. Aizen predicted than yama would do so and created a plan to fight yama jii just in case that were to ever happen. Had aizen not created wonderweiss for the sole purpose of sealing yama jii's power and WW not been there aizen would have lost. Aizen said it himself i cant believe your actually argueing this.