Madara Uchiha vs Monster Aizen

Originally posted by chasedown
How exactly am i going to show you kyoka vs sharingan? I simply gave you facts about how techniques work and based on those Facts explained to you why sharingan wouldnt be able to SEE through it. Enganced sight or not sight is still on of our five senses if you take both sharigan out of madara hes be blind. Aizen would be able to control what madara sees whether you like it or not.

Do i really have to show you a part 1 explanation of genjutsu? Its so basic that you should remember.

What ability did i give aizen that he doesnt have?

You just posted scans yourself of aizen explaining how his sword works even though you skipped a few parts. and nowhere does he say i insert my energy into my opponents.

Aizen never seriously hurt yama ji with his own power so he definitely didnt shit on him go watch it again yourself. Yama was defeated because he took the full brunt of his own power released from wonderweiss. Yama and gin are the only two ppl to break out of kyoka by touching his sword. Aizen predicted than yama would do so and created a plan to fight yama jii just in case that were to ever happen. Had aizen not created wonderweiss for the sole purpose of sealing yama jii's power and WW not been there aizen would have lost. Aizen said it himself i cant believe your actually argueing this.

So does genjutsu not control your sight as well? Are you retarded?

I already showed how genjutsu works, but you haven't shown how Aizen's works, so because of similarities, it's the same. You have failed to prove otherwise, so you lose.

Did you not read Bleach at all? Aizen lied when demonstrating his water based zanpaktou, and did so by using hypnosis. This works just like any other kidou effect zanpaktou, which channels reiatsu.

PFFT, Aizen would have lost? You're again neglecting the fact that the Vizards were stronger than Yama according to statements.

Again, you've failed to do anything but speculate, and I've already indisputably proven you wrong, and proven myself right, so I'm done.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So does genjutsu not control your sight as well? Are you retarded?

I already showed how genjutsu works, but you haven't shown how Aizen's works, so because of similarities, it's the same. You have failed to prove otherwise, so you lose.

Did you not read Bleach at all? Aizen lied when demonstrating his water based zanpaktou, and did so by using hypnosis. This works just like any other kidou effect zanpaktou, which channels reiatsu.

PFFT, Aizen would have lost? You're again neglecting the fact that the Vizards were stronger than Yama according to statements.

Again, you've failed to do anything but speculate, and I've already indisputably proven you wrong, and proven myself right, so I'm done.

Are you not reading what im saying genjutsu takes control of the senses by inserting your energy into the opponent. Kyoka is not genjutsu and does not insert energy into its opponents.

http://www.mangapanda.com/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html Where does it say kyoka inserts energy in opponents.

Wanna see the anime version too --- http://youtu.be/s0Oyv5qt6cs

Where in the manga has it ever been said that the vizards wete stronger than yami unless i missed that part thats BS. Yama jii has always been said to be the strongest shinigami. Hes been there since before the gotei 13 even started. Juha and aizen both recognized his strength why dont you?

Yes aizen would have died had wonderweiss not saved him from yamma jii's grasp. Also notice aizen never seriously hurt yama with his power. He found a way to use yama's own power against him. Wonderweiss was the tool for that to take place. Juha did something similar by straling his bankai. Nobody has ever been able to match yamamoto's sheer power.

Your ridiculous statements are actually amusing. Wrong but amusing

Lol according to you the vizards are stronger than yamamoto.

Yet mashiro got lumped up by wonderweiss. Kensei went bankai and didnt even beat him.

Yamamoto beat wonderweiss with his bare hands. Explain that.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Is that not exactly what I just said? Yes, Ichigo's sword is stronger than Aizens, but that doesn't mean that 1. Aizen's sword doesn't have a way better ability, or 2. Aizen himself isn't a hundred times stronger than Ichigo.

Show me the hogyoku using regen on Aizen before Ichigo cut through Aizen's shoulder.

When did that happen? He also never one-shotted 3 sternritter.

Ah, so I guess that statements>feats, right? Not to mention that no one other than Urahara and Tessai, and the vizards knew how strong Aizen was.

Except sharingan IS an absolute illusion breaker. You neglected the feat of Sasuke using his raw power behind his sharingan to break out of tsukiyomi. As long as you have sharingan, and are stronger than the caster, you can break out of ANY illusion. This is fact. Either give me proof, or stop throwing around these baseless statements. Madara CASUALLY breaks out of Aizen's shikai, without even mangekyo sharingan, and as a child.

Ichigo's sword was not more powerful. If it were then there wouldn't have been any need for the Dangai training. One of the few things that has stayed consistent in Bleach is that if someone is stronger then they will have a more powerful zanpakuto.

In the suicide attack. But lets say I'm wrong in that regard, considering Yamamoto had just tanked the full brunt of his zanpakuto and had to sacrifice an arm, I'm pretty sure he wasn't at full power.

Yamamoto tanked Choujiro's bankai right here:

And here's Yamamoto taking out these three guys:

When those statements are back up by similar feats then yes. Aizen was still lieutenant level at the time of the Pendulum arc. Even Unohana, first Kenpachi and the first person to realize something was off with Aizen's "corpse", couldn't fully break out of the illusion.

You just proved that the sharingan wasn't absolute. The sharigan's genjutsu potency depends on the wielder in question. Which is how, for some strange reason, Madara was duped by Hashirama's wood clone and the sharingan alone amounts to absolutely nothing against Koto Amatsukami. Aizen's illusions are independent of his own strength as proven with Yamamoto and Unohana to a certain degree. The only sure way to break out of the illusion is to either not see the sword at all it or come into direct contact with Kyoka Suigetsu.

Originally posted by chasedown
Are you not reading what im saying genjutsu takes control of the senses by inserting your energy into the opponent. Kyoka is not genjutsu and does not insert energy into its opponents.

http://www.mangapanda.com/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html Where does it say kyoka inserts energy in opponents.

Wanna see the anime version too --- http://youtu.be/s0Oyv5qt6cs

Where in the manga has it ever been said that the vizards wete stronger than yami unless i missed that part thats BS. Yama jii has always been said to be the strongest shinigami. Hes been there since before the gotei 13 even started. Juha and aizen both recognized his strength why dont you?

Yes aizen would have died had wonderweiss not saved him from yamma jii's grasp. Also notice aizen never seriously hurt yama with his power. He found a way to use yama's own power against him. Wonderweiss was the tool for that to take place. Juha did something similar by straling his bankai. Nobody has ever been able to match yamamoto's sheer power.

Your ridiculous statements are actually amusing. Wrong but amusing

Where does it say that he doesn't?

You've still failed to show a single explanation of Aizen's shikai's workings, so similarity rule still stands, and Madara casually breaks it.

Just stop embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Where does it say that he doesn't?

You've still failed to show a single explanation of Aizen's shikai's workings, so similarity rule still stands, and Madara casually breaks it.

Just stop embarrassing yourself.

You cant just say it inserts energy into opponents if it is not stated that thats how the technique works.

What do you mean i just showed you how it works.... So the manga and aizen are just wrong about its content now?

Originally posted by chasedown
You cant just say it inserts energy into opponents if it is not stated that thats how the technique works.

What do you mean i just showed you how it works.... So the manga and aizen are just wrong about its content now?

That's exactly what I can do, as this is a vs forum, genius. Similarity rule means things can be concluded equivalent if they are similar and one has been explained in detail.

You didn't though. Nowhere in the entire series did Aizen explain how Kyoka works. It can be deduced though that it works like every other zanpaktou, by manipulating reiatsu, meaning it is bound by the same rules.

Again, nut up, or shut up.

Madara just pulled off a planetary ranged wood release in the latest chapter. I think he wins with middle difficulty. Aizen only true advantage is Kyoka Suigetsu, but it would be rather useless if limbo clones are used. They are in another world and can only be effected by Sage chakra. His Shikai should have no effect on them and they found the real Aizen, beating him down.

Yhwach would be a more fitting opponent, tbh.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That's exactly what I can do, as this is a vs forum, genius. Similarity rule means things can be concluded equivalent if they are similar and one has been explained in detail.

You didn't though. Nowhere in the entire series did Aizen explain how Kyoka works. It can be deduced though that it works like every other zanpaktou, by manipulating reiatsu, meaning it is bound by the same rules.

Again, nut up, or shut up.

That makes no sense whatsoever and ive never ever heard or seen that rule. Where is it stated?

Thats just like saying nozorashi can use getsuga because zangetsu because they look similar and has been explained more. Or that theres a mangekyou byakugan because its similar to sharingan its just that sharingan has been explained more.

Genjutsu is energy manipulation while kyoka is just straight up sensory manipulation.

Aizen clearly stated the workings of his zanpaktou in both things i posted. He knows his zanpaktou as well as kubo knows. If he inserted his energy into others he would have said it at that exact moment.

As a matter of fact as i think about it no illusion based zanpaktou has ever been broken out of by exerting energy. Unless your gonna tell me that shinji is stronger than aizen too.

Ive never heard of the similarity rule either.... Jus putting my 2 cents in

Originally posted by chasedown
That makes no sense whatsoever and ive never ever heard or seen that rule. Where is it stated?

Thats just like saying nozorashi can use getsuga because zangetsu because they look similar and has been explained more. Or that theres a mangekyou byakugan because its similar to sharingan its just that sharingan has been explained more.

Genjutsu is energy manipulation while kyoka is just straight up sensory manipulation.

Aizen clearly stated the workings of his zanpaktou in both things i posted. He knows his zanpaktou as well as kubo knows. If he inserted his energy into others he would have said it at that exact moment.

As a matter of fact as i think about it no illusion based zanpaktou has ever been broken out of by exerting energy. Unless your gonna tell me that shinji is stronger than aizen too.

This argument is over.

That's nothing what it's like, and your analogies are terrible.

Show me that being stated. Otherwise, again, the similarities in it and genjutsu allow me to presume certain things about Kyoka, such as its functionality.

The page you posted proves me right even further. The fact that someone needs to see Aizen's shikai alone, proves that he can't simply control all of their senses. In the fact that it needs to be activated, just like every other sword, it proves that he needs to manipulate reiatsu to do so. Meaning, of course, that it can be negated by superior reiatsu, OR that it can be negated with sharingan, BECAUSE IT IS LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT SHARINGAN IS THERE TO PROTECT AGAINST.

Um, obviously not. But Aizen's also not as much more powerful as hollowfied Shinji as he is Soi Fon.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
This argument is over.

That's nothing what it's like, and your analogies are terrible.

Show me that being stated. Otherwise, again, the similarities in it and genjutsu allow me to presume certain things about Kyoka, such as its functionality.

The page you posted proves me right even further. The fact that someone needs to see Aizen's shikai alone, proves that he can't simply control all of their senses. In the fact that it needs to be activated, just like every other sword, it proves that he needs to manipulate reiatsu to do so. Meaning, of course, that it can be negated by superior reiatsu, OR that it can be negated with sharingan, BECAUSE IT IS LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT SHARINGAN IS THERE TO PROTECT AGAINST.

Um, obviously not. But Aizen's also not as much more powerful as hollowfied Shinji as he is Soi Fon.

Thats exactly what its like because its exactly what you said with your exact words when two things look similar that means they are the same if one is explained more. Which isnt really sensible in the least. Lol sorry gogeta hes right about this one. Madara still wins tho because of his feats.

Genjutsu manipulates the opponents chakra. Kyoka does not it manipulates the senses aizen clearly stated what his sword does in both outlets that i saw posted. Both series gave explanations about how each work and the two are different. You coming up with this nonexistant similarity rule isnt going to change that. Speculation isnt either.

Madara probably has that killing intent sense like Naruto which I can doubt KS affect.

Originally posted by Zamiel
Madara probably has that killing intent sense like Naruto which I can doubt KS affect.

Smh what?How does killer intent see through kyoka

Edo Madara loses via scaling or barely wins.

Current Madara stomps.

Wait which version of Madara is this thread about?

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Edo Madara loses via scaling or barely wins.

Current Madara stomps.

Wait which version of Madara is this thread about?

I think edo

Originally posted by yungz22
Thats exactly what its like because its exactly what you said with your exact words when two things look similar that means they are the same if one is explained more. Which isnt really sensible in the least. Lol sorry gogeta hes right about this one. Madara still wins tho because of his feats.

Genjutsu manipulates the opponents chakra. Kyoka does not it manipulates the senses aizen clearly stated what his sword does in both outlets that i saw posted. Both series gave explanations about how each work and the two are different. You coming up with this nonexistant similarity rule isnt going to change that. Speculation isnt either.

Genjutsu manipulates the opponents senses through their chakra, idiot. Kyoka does the same through reiatsu. Either find a scan proving otherwise, or don't reply.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Genjutsu manipulates the opponents senses through their chakra, idiot. Kyoka does the same through reiatsu. Either find a scan proving otherwise, or don't reply.

Lol your logic goes both ways theres no scan saying that aizen does what you say it does. You have zero evidence.

Similar does not equal the same

Do i beed to show you an explanation of genjutsu from part 1. The user inserts their chakra into opponents anfd disrupts their chakra system. We know this is how it works because its been stated plenty of times in the manga. No chakra system no genjutsu thats how it works

Kyoka was not stated to do the same. Aizen(the wielder of his own sword) would know everything there is about kyoka did not state that his energy is inserted into his opponents in order to hypnotize them.

Originally posted by chasedown
Lol your logic goes both ways theres no scan saying that aizen does what you say it does. You have zero evidence.

Similar does not equal the same

Do i beed to show you an explanation of genjutsu from part 1. The user inserts their chakra into opponents anfd disrupts their chakra system. We know this is how it works because its been stated plenty of times in the manga. No chakra system no genjutsu thats how it works

Kyoka was not stated to do the same. Aizen(the wielder of his own sword) would know everything there is about kyoka did not state that his energy is inserted into his opponents in order to hypnotize them.

I have evidence due to the similarity rule. All you're doing is suggesting that an attack can be activated by doing nothing, with no evidence. My evidence is that every sword needs reiatsu to activate, and every sword uses reiatsu to use its ability. Aizen controls his opponents reiatsu, and can use his own through his sword to make them under illusions. Unless you have a scan disproving this, I'm done with this pitiful "no, you", argument that you've dragged me into.

But every living thing in Naruto has a chakra system, meaning since this is a vs thread, they are both equivalent. Otherwise, I could say that Kyoka doesn't work because it's never been demonstrated on anyone that didn't have reiatsu. Therefor, either neither can use their illusions, or they both can, either case brings Madara out as the casual victor.

So you're telling me that Aizen would explain every thing about his power for...? What reason? Him doing so would only hinder him further.

Either way, I will repeat this one last time. Show me a scan of Aizen saying his shikai doesn't use reiatsu, or this "debate" is over.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I have evidence due to the similarity rule. All you're doing is suggesting that an attack can be activated by doing nothing, with no evidence. My evidence is that every sword needs reiatsu to activate, and every sword uses reiatsu to use its ability. Aizen controls his opponents reiatsu, and can use his own through his sword to make them under illusions. Unless you have a scan disproving this, I'm done with this pitiful "no, you", argument that you've dragged me into.

But every living thing in Naruto has a chakra system, meaning since this is a vs thread, they are both equivalent. Otherwise, I could say that Kyoka doesn't work because it's never been demonstrated on anyone that didn't have reiatsu. Therefor, either neither can use their illusions, or they both can, either case brings Madara out as the casual victor.

So you're telling me that Aizen would explain every thing about his power for...? What reason? Him doing so would only hinder him further.

Either way, I will repeat this one last time. Show me a scan of Aizen saying his shikai doesn't use reiatsu, or this "debate" is over.

There is no similarity rule where did you get that from.