Women vs Team Hulk

Originally posted by -Pr-
He was mentally compromised. It's been in the forum rules that we don't use a character that is mentally compromised as being an accurate representation of how well they could do in a fight.

An accurate representation of how they'd do regularly? No.

Means that it should be completely ignored? Also no, that's just silly. Wonder Woman fought someone there with the full muscle of non-holding-back Superman who used the powers in a tactical, but overly-aggressive manner, which payed off at first but was more exploitable than he'd normally be.

(And she has fought a non-compromised Superman- they hit back and forth for awhile, neither taking any real damage, then Superman pointed out a distraction and slipped past).

People like to claim that this Superman was some uber version of the character, when it wasn't.

No, but it was one who fought well, simply in terms of observed move set.

A lot better than most mind-controlled types, since the mental compromise in question was mostly one of swapping targets and not someone else in the driver's seat. Like JakeTheBank said, Superman's best? No. High-Herald and more dangerous than his normal fights? Yes.

and no, incidentally I don't agree with your interpretation of the comic.

Yea, you've said that a few times. You've also never said why, so, y'know, that appears to be entirely an opinion thing. It doesn't do any good in debates to just grumble about something without a reason.

Originally posted by Q99
An accurate representation of how they'd do regularly? No.

Means that it should be completely ignored? Also no, that's just silly. Wonder Woman fought someone there with the full muscle of non-holding-back Superman who used the powers in a tactical, but overly-aggressive manner, which payed off at first but was more exploitable than he'd normally be.

(And she has fought a non-compromised Superman- they hit back and forth for awhile, neither taking any real damage, then Superman pointed out a distraction and slipped past).

No, but it was one who fought well, simply in terms of observed move set.

A lot better than most mind-controlled types, since the mental compromise in question was mostly one of swapping targets and not someone else in the driver's seat. Like JakeTheBank said, Superman's best? No. High-Herald and more dangerous than his normal fights? Yes.

Yea, you've said that a few times. You've also never said why, so, y'know, that appears to be entirely an opinion thing. It doesn't do any good in debates to just grumble about something without a reason.

I've actually said so, several times. At length. 😬

Originally posted by Q99
She punched Supergirl and she went down.

just get over your hangups.

Originally posted by Stoic
Is Zatanna actually in this thread?

No, just wishful thinking

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've actually said so, several times. At length. 😬

You have at length talked about how you don't feel it counts.

That's not actually the same as providing reasons, which I note you aren't doing now either. You seem to write off way more than the influence actually justifies, and your reasoning behind it remains really vague.

Like Jake and so on had said, yes he didn't fight quite as normal, but he was still clearly fighting at high-levels. He uses tactics, he used powers well, etc.. He fought a lot like the forum would have him fight in bloodlust mode!

Bottom line it for me, please. One sentence, why does all that not count, when we see Superman visually fighting in a highly impressive way?

abhilegend
After several punches from superman and a hv blast and she just knocked kara down. Do you even know what a oneshot means?

Really?

Lemme check...

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on this one, I remembered it wrong.

She was still the one who did the blow that transitioned her from 'active, fighting combatant' to 'out of the fight' 🙂

Yeah a blind diana lassoing zoom is straight PIS. In the second round diana was a statue to zoloman who blitzed the shit outta her.

So she did something to make him slow down, thus allowing it to work.

abhilegend
His pain was expressd as bony spurs. You need more than "made him bulkier" to prove your theory when circe never mentioned an amp. I don't have to prove a negative.

"Someone gains more muscles, but that doesn't mean they have more muscles!" is a statement that needs support, actually.

Not by herself. She awoke by the heat of re-entry.

Quite, meaning it wasn't hard at all to wake her up.

At most she stunned him for a moment by a soccer kick just after several nerve strikes on neck, joints and other weak points. How similar!

Uh, 'nerve strikes?'. She didn't use nerve strikes, she slammed his ears with her metal bracers.

And yea, it is similar. They both got hit by the others, and stunned for a bit.

Btw, you do know that WW got upgrades after that fight, right? Her bracers gained a Zeus's lightning-zapper setting?

Superman would've never been able to hold on to her so long in the attempted sun throw to begin with with those.

In your wet dreams perhaps, in reality no.

"Superman was there with his throat cut and couldn't defend himself without bleeding out of the neck, but it doesn't count as a loss! Really!"

C'mon.

Nope, zoom fight is PIS and at the time she fought that flash clone, flash was just supersonic. Professor zoom who wrecked entire flash family said superman was his near equal. Due to hallucinations, not due to being slower.

Flash clone was Barry, iirc. I'm talking about when she fought Starro-controlled Wally.

and struggles to win against a no name GL.

I can recall a no-name GL beating on her and her just standing there taking it because she wanted a diplomatic solution. Her wounds cleared within like 15 seconds of the 'fight's' end.

So non-major GLs are at a level where she can just let them wail on her and it's just a temporary inconvenience.

She's got the feats
Nope.

Yes. Whether talking strength and speed feats, or, y'know, fighting against heralds and trans types, she's got plenty of wins and good battles. Power Girl's an impressive Mid-Herald, and WW beat her. Matched up in power against Captain Marvel. Beats Achilles who beats the entire Outsiders including Eradicator and Geo-Force. Has fought Superman in Sacrifice, For Tomorrow, when Circe-ified, League of One, did well in all of them. Yadda yadda.

She's had some lower-powered runs, but once we're talking to the era of Jimenez, Rucka and beyond and such, she's really quite impressive (there were explicit upgrades involved, btw).

You guys do realize that Thanos could place them all in force blocks, and release them 2 at a time for a major ass whipping right? Let's not make this out to be some sort of a competitive match up, because it won't be.

Originally posted by Q99
You have at length talked about how you don't feel it counts.

That's not actually the same as providing reasons, which I note you aren't doing now either. You seem to write off way more than the influence actually justifies, and your reasoning behind it remains really vague.

Like Jake and so on had said, yes he didn't fight quite as normal, but he was still clearly fighting at high-levels. He uses tactics, he used powers well, etc.. He fought a lot like the forum would have him fight in bloodlust mode!

Bottom line it for me, please. One sentence, why does all that not count, when we see Superman visually fighting in a highly impressive way?

I have provided reasons, both in this forum and the Superman one. I have noticed, though, how willing you are to exaggerate Diana's performance and Superman's level to try to turn this in to some sort of trans-busting feat for her.

To summarise, though, just because you asked so nicely ermm

I believe Superman did more damage during the fight, and see no indication that she had anything resembling a win.

I don't mind Jake's appraisal. Superman was more vicious, and more dangerous than a holding-back Superman.

Trying to equate it to a non-CIS Superman like in OWAW or the Elite, though? No, i just don't see it.

Originally posted by Q99
Really?

Lemme check...

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on this one, I remembered it wrong.

She's had some lower-powered runs, but once we're talking to the era of Jimenez, Rucka and beyond and such, she's really quite impressive (there were explicit upgrades involved, btw).

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have provided reasons, both in this forum and the Superman one. I have noticed, though, how willing you are to exaggerate Diana's performance and Superman's level to try to turn this in to some sort of trans-busting feat for her.

No, one where she simply fought a strong High-Herald very well.

See, this is part of the problem- there's a fallacy of an excluded middle there. If someone argues she fought well on a high-herald level, then you say they're pushing for trans (which no-one is). If someone doesn't, then mid-herald. You can see where that's kinda wonky.

I believe Superman did more damage during the fight, and see no indication that she had anything resembling a win.

*Cough* Cut, throat. That happened, and generally cutting someone's throat resembles a win.

And while he certainly did a lot of damage, she did a pretty good amount as well. The smashed ears, the kick to the side that both kept him down for awhile and he was holding even when he did get up, and the final cut.

That's the thing- you view him as having dealt more damage. Ok, fine. Not a problem, I'll just go with that without any argument. How is it still not a High Herald feat on her part is the part that's rather more iffy, considering she still dealt quite a lot of power.

It seems to me like the idea of 'she is simply slightly lower in HH than he is' is being left out entirely, which is really odd considering he's one of the best HHs there is.

And she has had an upgrade since then, so even if you though she was not-quite there before... well, new strong power in the arsenal to push her over the top.

Trying to equate it to a non-CIS Superman like in OWAW or the Elite, though? No, i just don't see it.

I didn't say it was at the same level of the Elite- IMO the best showing he had tactics-wise. Better than Sacrifice, OWAW, or anything else. That's the crown, period, no question. Elite-style Superman would've won.

However, he did use his powers in combination in a very similar way as he did in OWAW. He wouldn't be quite as incautious then, but he was doing the same stuff that get people raving about how great he was during that story. So, more-or-less the same as there, minus some caution.

And more to the point, better than any story I can think of aside from those.

That it wasn't the best use of his powers ever, but still in the top three, is hardly a mark against WW or an argument for mid-herald.

The arguments of "It's not a trans busting feat," and "It's not as good as the Elite fight," do not add up to "Not high-herald," or "not still darn impressive." That's basically my problem here- you're arguing against her being higher than I'm arguing, and using that as justification for putting her lower than you're arguing.

It seems to me like WW is just being held to a higher standard than other HHs.

Originally posted by Q99
No, one where she simply fought a strong High-Herald very well.

See, this is part of the problem- there's a fallacy of an excluded middle there. If someone argues she fought well on a high-herald level, then you say they're pushing for trans (which no-one is). If someone doesn't, then mid-herald. You can see where that's kinda wonky.

*Cough* Cut, throat. That happened, and generally cutting someone's throat resembles a win.

And while he certainly did a lot of damage, she did a pretty good amount as well. The smashed ears, the kick to the side that both kept him down for awhile and he was holding even when he did get up, and the final cut.

That's the thing- you view him as having dealt more damage. Ok, fine. Not a problem, I'll just go with that without any argument. How is it still not a High Herald feat on her part is the part that's rather more iffy, considering she still dealt quite a lot of power.

It seems to me like the idea of 'she is simply slightly lower in HH than he is' is being left out entirely, which is really odd considering he's one of the best HHs there is.

And she has had an upgrade since then, so even if you though she was not-quite there before... well, new strong power in the arsenal to push her over the top.

I didn't say it was at the same level of the Elite- IMO the best showing he had tactics-wise. Better than Sacrifice, OWAW, or anything else. That's the crown, period, no question. Elite-style Superman would've won.

However, he did use his powers in combination in a very similar way as he did in OWAW. He wouldn't be quite as incautious then, but he was doing the same stuff that get people raving about how great he was during that story. So, more-or-less the same as there, minus some caution.

And more to the point, better than any story I can think of aside from those.

That it wasn't the best use of his powers ever, but still in the top three, is hardly a mark against WW or an argument for mid-herald.

The arguments of "It's not a trans busting feat," and "It's not as good as the Elite fight," do not add up to "Not high-herald," or "not still darn impressive." That's basically my problem here- you're arguing against her being higher than I'm arguing, and using that as justification for putting her lower than you're arguing.

It seems to me like WW is just being held to a higher standard than other HHs.

Originally posted by Q99
No, one where she simply fought a strong High-Herald very well.

See, this is part of the problem- there's a fallacy of an excluded middle there. If someone argues she fought well on a high-herald level, then you say they're pushing for trans (which no-one is). If someone doesn't, then mid-herald. You can see where that's kinda wonky.

*Cough* Cut, throat. That happened, and generally cutting someone's throat resembles a win.

And while he certainly did a lot of damage, she did a pretty good amount as well. The smashed ears, the kick to the side that both kept him down for awhile and he was holding even when he did get up, and the final cut.

That's the thing- you view him as having dealt more damage. Ok, fine. Not a problem, I'll just go with that without any argument. How is it still not a High Herald feat on her part is the part that's rather more iffy, considering she still dealt quite a lot of power.

It seems to me like the idea of 'she is simply slightly lower in HH than he is' is being left out entirely, which is really odd considering he's one of the best HHs there is.

And she has had an upgrade since then, so even if you though she was not-quite there before... well, new strong power in the arsenal to push her over the top.

I didn't say it was at the same level of the Elite- IMO the best showing he had tactics-wise. Better than Sacrifice, OWAW, or anything else. That's the crown, period, no question. Elite-style Superman would've won.

However, he did use his powers in combination in a very similar way as he did in OWAW. He wouldn't be quite as incautious then, but he was doing the same stuff that get people raving about how great he was during that story. So, more-or-less the same as there, minus some caution.

And more to the point, better than any story I can think of aside from those.

That it wasn't the best use of his powers ever, but still in the top three, is hardly a mark against WW or an argument for mid-herald.

The arguments of "It's not a trans busting feat," and "It's not as good as the Elite fight," do not add up to "Not high-herald," or "not still darn impressive." That's basically my problem here- you're arguing against her being higher than I'm arguing, and using that as justification for putting her lower than you're arguing.

It seems to me like WW is just being held to a higher standard than other HHs.

Trying to avoid a wall of text here, so i'll try to keep it to bullet points.

There's nothing wrong with saying she did well against a high herald. There's nothing wrong with claiming Diana is a high-end mid-herald, or even a low-end high herald. Nothing at all wrong with that. She's got the feats to back up an argument for it, certainly.

Cutting his throat means she won? How, exactly? He was healed in seconds, or are we just arguing that healing factors are redundant now? The most daming thing of all, though, is that even Diana didn't seem to believe she'd done enough to win. Why? She killed Lord AFTER cutting Superman's throat. This suggests to me that she still felt like she hadn't done enough to beat Clark.

Sacrifice Superman is nothing like OWAW Superman, for several reasons. First is attitude: Superman, in OWAW (and incidentally, in almost all his other high-end feat situations) is operating with a calm, ruthless efficiency. He's using his powers creatively, two, three at a time and applying pressure where needed. He's fighting to win, not to cause pain or carnage.

In Sacrifice, Clark is a rage monster that, while trying to get her to the sun, is still operating on the principle of "me mad, me hurt you". Hell, the fact that he stops to use his hearing, when he's been shown to be able to use it in concert with his other powers more than once, is yet another example that he wasn't operating at the highest of high-levels.

Sacrifice isn't in the top three. It doesn't rank with his highest feats, because it directly contradicts Superman operating at anything close to peak efficiency.

In Sacfrifice, he is dangerous. He is out to hurt her, with little regard for holding back. That she did as well as he did is commendable. He is also not fighting at near his best ability though. He was trying to torture her, not put her down.

You want to argue that Diana is doing well against a legit high herald? Go right ahead.

You want to argue that this is some sort of uber, top shelf showing for Superman? No, not a chance, tbh. Especially with how contradictory it is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Trying to avoid a wall of text here, so i'll try to keep it to bullet points.

I'll try and do the same 🙂

There's nothing wrong with saying she did well against a high herald. There's nothing wrong with claiming Diana is a high-end mid-herald, or even a low-end high herald. Nothing at all wrong with that. She's got the feats to back up an argument for it, certainly.

Ok, low-end high herald. We're agreed.

Cutting his throat means she won? How, exactly? He was healed in seconds, or are we just arguing that healing factors are redundant now?

Healed after Diana had enough time to hold a back-and-forth conversation with Max and then break his neck, while Superman was still in no state to intervene. If Wonder Woman had attacked during those 30~ seconds (and there's a time stamp in the OMAC book, 24 seconds from the throat cut to Max saying 'kill me,' with the wound not closed yet) where Superman cannot even use his arms....? That was 1/4th the time of all the previous fighting.

She won in the sense the fight ended when she was in a clearly superior position. I mean, it's not completely impossible that Superman could've turned it around, but it'd be really hard if WW'd used that time offensively.

The most daming thing of all, though, is that even Diana didn't seem to believe she'd done enough to win. Why? She killed Lord AFTER cutting Superman's throat. This suggests to me that she still felt like she hadn't done enough to beat Clark.

Ah, that goes directly into why she broke Max's neck- Yea, Superman's temporarily helpless. Wait 30 seconds, and he won't be and ohcrap gotta do that again, with no guarantee at all that another such opportunity will arise.

Let's say she does go for him, though, and knocks him out entirely. Well, then he's knocked out. Then what? Sooner or later, probably sooner, he wakes up and he's still under Max's mind control, and Max has buggered off in the mean time.

Diana will not kill Superman. An alive Superman will be Max's weapon. A win by KO buys time before it starts again, but it will start again, and Wonder Woman was the only Leaguer period who they could send in that could both stand up to Superman and not be influenced by Max.

So basically, even if she won the fight, Diana still loses, just a bit later. That's the lose-lose Maxwell Lord put her in, on purpose, and the big point of the fight. Win against Superman today, lose tomorrow. Kill him, lose to the media. Get killed, well, one of the biggest obstacles is gone. Kill Max, what happened.

Sacrifice Superman is nothing like OWAW Superman, for several reasons. First is attitude: Superman, in OWAW (and incidentally, in almost all his other high-end feat situations) is operating with a calm, ruthless efficiency. He's using his powers creatively, two, three at a time and applying pressure where needed. He's fighting to win, not to cause pain or carnage.

It's the 'use powers creatively,' plus ruthlessness, that I'm focusing on.

In Sacrifice, Clark is a rage monster that, while trying to get her to the sun, is still operating on the principle of "me mad, me hurt you". Hell, the fact that he stops to use his hearing, when he's been shown to be able to use it in concert with his other powers more than once, is yet another example that he wasn't operating at the highest of high-levels.

? He stopped not because he had to stop using any other powers, but because he simply didn't know where she was. No reason to heat vision or punch if you've lost the target.

He uses multiple powers at a time during the fight.

Sacrifice isn't in the top three. It doesn't rank with his highest feats, because it directly contradicts Superman operating at anything close to peak efficiency.

Not peak mental attitude, but pretty darn close to peak with powers. No holding back on his strength + using powers in combination is something he simply almost never does.

Not holding back is something he almost never does to begin with.

You want to argue that this is some sort of uber, top shelf showing for Superman? No, not a chance, tbh.

It certainly isn't a low showing by any measure, either, is my point.

I have a genuine, honest question, in lieu of nothing:

How much Superman have you read?

Originally posted by Q99
I'll try and do the same 🙂

Ok, low-end high herald. We're agreed.

Healed after Diana had enough time to hold a back-and-forth conversation with Max and then break his neck, while Superman was still in no state to intervene. If Wonder Woman had attacked during those 30~ seconds (and there's a time stamp in the OMAC book, 24 seconds from the throat cut to Max saying 'kill me,' with the wound not closed yet) where Superman cannot even use his arms....? That was 1/4th the time of all the previous fighting.

She won in the sense the fight ended when she was in a clearly superior position. I mean, it's not completely impossible that Superman could've turned it around, but it'd be really hard if WW'd used that time offensively.

Ah, that goes directly into why she broke Max's neck- Yea, Superman's temporarily helpless. Wait 30 seconds, and he won't be and ohcrap gotta do that again, with no guarantee at all that another such opportunity will arise.

Let's say she does go for him, though, and knocks him out entirely. Well, then he's knocked out. Then what? Sooner or later, probably sooner, he wakes up and he's still under Max's mind control, and Max has buggered off in the mean time.

Diana will not kill Superman. An alive Superman will be Max's weapon. A win by KO buys time before it starts again, but it will start again, and Wonder Woman was the only Leaguer period who they could send in that could both stand up to Superman and not be influenced by Max.

So basically, even if she won the fight, Diana still loses, just a bit later. That's the lose-lose Maxwell Lord put her in, on purpose, and the big point of the fight. Win against Superman today, lose tomorrow. Kill him, lose to the media. Get killed, well, one of the biggest obstacles is gone. Kill Max, what happened.

It's the 'use powers creatively,' plus ruthlessness, that I'm focusing on.

? He stopped not because he had to stop using any other powers, but because he simply didn't know where she was. No reason to heat vision or punch if you've lost the target.

He uses multiple powers at a time during the fight.

Not peak mental attitude, but pretty darn close to peak with powers. No holding back on his strength + using powers in combination is something he simply almost never does.

Not holding back is something he almost never does to begin with.

It certainly isn't a low showing by any measure, either, is my point.

Rape fest for the duo.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll try and do the same 🙂

Ok, low-end high herald. We're agreed.

Healed after Diana had enough time to hold a back-and-forth conversation with Max and then break his neck, while Superman was still in no state to intervene. If Wonder Woman had attacked during those 30~ seconds (and there's a time stamp in the OMAC book, 24 seconds from the throat cut to Max saying 'kill me,' with the wound not closed yet) where Superman cannot even use his arms....? That was 1/4th the time of all the previous fighting.

She won in the sense the fight ended when she was in a clearly superior position. I mean, it's not completely impossible that Superman could've turned it around, but it'd be really hard if WW'd used that time offensively.

Ah, that goes directly into why she broke Max's neck- Yea, Superman's temporarily helpless. Wait 30 seconds, and he won't be and ohcrap gotta do that again, with no guarantee at all that another such opportunity will arise.

Let's say she does go for him, though, and knocks him out entirely. Well, then he's knocked out. Then what? Sooner or later, probably sooner, he wakes up and he's still under Max's mind control, and Max has buggered off in the mean time.

Diana will not kill Superman. An alive Superman will be Max's weapon. A win by KO buys time before it starts again, but it will start again, and Wonder Woman was the only Leaguer period who they could send in that could both stand up to Superman and not be influenced by Max.

So basically, even if she won the fight, Diana still loses, just a bit later. That's the lose-lose Maxwell Lord put her in, on purpose, and the big point of the fight. Win against Superman today, lose tomorrow. Kill him, lose to the media. Get killed, well, one of the biggest obstacles is gone. Kill Max, what happened.

It's the 'use powers creatively,' plus ruthlessness, that I'm focusing on.

? He stopped not because he had to stop using any other powers, but because he simply didn't know where she was. No reason to heat vision or punch if you've lost the target.

He uses multiple powers at a time during the fight.

Not peak mental attitude, but pretty darn close to peak with powers. No holding back on his strength + using powers in combination is something he simply almost never does.

Not holding back is something he almost never does to begin with.

It certainly isn't a low showing by any measure, either, is my point.

Good post.

I can see it now, Thanos and Hulk sitting down while a bunch hoes with no clothes get served the egg rolls.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have a genuine, honest question, in lieu of nothing:

How much Superman have you read?

Hmmm... quite a bit, I'd say?

When I started getting into DC, it was mostly via trades and I still like physical trades, and Superman has plenty of TPBs, both himself and in other stuff, so several trades of random stuff like when he was exiled into space for awhile and some aliens tried to hold him for the crimes of all Krypton, or fighting this villain or that, old 4th World stuff, Cosmic Odyssey, a lot of Doomsday stuff, all of the Death/Return of Superman saga of course, OWAW, various other trades. All of the Trinity maxiseries. Plus, he's in the JLA a lot, and Morrison/Waid JLA was my main entry into the wider DCU (I had started with the Batbooks).

And at times I have followed Superman books directly in the individuals, though not super often.

In terms of issue count, easily in the hundreds.

Originally posted by Q99
Hmmm... quite a bit, I'd say?

When I started getting into DC, it was mostly via trades and I still like physical trades, and Superman has plenty of TPBs, both himself and in other stuff, so several trades of random stuff like when he was exiled into space for awhile and some aliens tried to hold him for the crimes of all Krypton, or fighting this villain or that, old 4th World stuff, Cosmic Odyssey, a lot of Doomsday stuff, all of the Death/Return of Superman saga of course, OWAW, various other trades. All of the Trinity maxiseries. Plus, he's in the JLA a lot, and Morrison/Waid JLA was my main entry into the wider DCU (I had started with the Batbooks).

And at times I have followed Superman books directly in the individuals, though not super often.

In terms of issue count, easily in the hundreds.

I'm just wondering why you seem to think Superman varying up his powers and being creative with them is some sort of... I don't know, rarity? It was a given during the Loeb/Casey years, and even after that guys like Johns, Busiek etc used to engage in the same thing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm just wondering why you seem to think Superman varying up his powers and being creative with them is some sort of... I don't know, rarity? It was a given during the Loeb/Casey years, and even after that guys like Johns, Busiek etc used to engage in the same thing.

It's not rare that he varies them up some, but superspeeding while heatvisioning while throwing someone into the sun?

C'mon, that's the kind of thing people use as an example of "CIS off bloodlusted" around here!

And a lot of the time, he breaks out the power combo only once the going gets tough, not as an opener.