Originally posted by QuincyTechnically it was Tony/Bruce that caused this problem.
The entire events of the movie were directly CAUSED by the Avengers. It was basically 2 hours of watching them clean up their mess as people died all around them. These are the HEROES.
Also Ultron chose to do the things he did as he was a true self conscious AI.
Originally posted by Quincy
Yeah except not in a SUPERHERO movie.
It's often heavily implied by the narrative that Batman is his own problem, suggesting things along the line of "Would the Joker even exist if not for you?"
Of course, I'm not automatically assuming you like Batman. I'm just applying what I find to be a useful analogy.
Originally posted by Sacred 117
It's often heavily implied by the narrative that Batman is his own problem, suggesting things along the line of "Would the Joker even exist if not for you?"Of course, I'm not automatically assuming you like Batman. I'm just applying what I find to be a useful analogy.
Yeah I get the correlation you're trying to make, but Batman didn't actually "CREATE" the joker the same way Tony Stark and Bruce Banner CREATE Ultron.
Maybe he inspires him, sure. But it's not the same.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He had no direct hand in that. All he did was create Ultron who went crazy and did all of that. If I have a baby and it grows up to massacre people I'm not gonna be held accountable for that. Ultron was an AI, it's actions were it's own.At most it was reckless endangerment but I really don't see how anyone could have reasonably expected Ultron would act in such a way or be capable of overpowering Jarvis' security so easily. Morally speaking it was wrong of him to create Ultron with no oversight or extensive safety measures but legally speaking he was under no obligation to do either of those things.
LoL, wut? You're comparing giving birth to what amounts to an invention.
He tampered with something he barely understood (an Infinity stone and the super AI designs, more so the former) because he's a know-it-all (didn't this time) prick and created a planet-wide threat. It's completely Tony's fault. Bruce's too for going along, but mostly Tony's.
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, wut? You're comparing giving birth to what amounts to an invention.He tampered with something he barely understood (an Infinity stone and the super AI designs, more so the former) because he's a know-it-all (didn't this time) prick and created a planet-wide threat. It's completely Tony's fault. Bruce's too for going along, but mostly Tony's.
An AI by definition is a program advanced enough to achieve sentience, a true Pinocchio. Ultron was basically a person.
Actually it's Ultron's fault. His actions were his own and his consciousness is real enough that he can made informed decisions of his own. Tony was negligent but Ultron was the one who killed all those people and tried to annihilate earth.
Originally posted by Quincy
Yeah I get the correlation you're trying to make, but Batman didn't actually "CREATE" the joker the same way Tony Stark and Bruce Banner CREATE Ultron.Maybe he inspires him, sure. But it's not the same.
IIRC, Joker's origin as the Red Hood might tell you different. The difference between him and Ultron, in this case, being the level of intent.
Stark tried to make Ultron as a guardian, and it backfired. Batman simply tried to stop hood, but... accident. Point being, had they both left shit alone, their villains would never have came to be, but having to correct their own mistakes was just all part of it.
Hell, it certainly serves to inspire tension and moral dilemma, and I find that interesting in both cases.
Originally posted by Nephthys
An AI by definition is a program advanced enough to achieve sentience, a true Pinocchio. Ultron was basically a person.Actually it's Ultron's fault. His actions were his own and his consciousness is real enough that he can made informed decisions of his own. Tony was negligent but Ultron was the one who killed all those people and tried to annihilate earth.
Disagree, Ultron was not "basically a person", and I looked it up in Merriam-Webster:
1: a branch of computer science dealing with the simulation of intelligent behavior in computers
2: the capability of a machine to imitate intelligent human behavior
Tony created a program that nearly eradicated the human race, he did so without permission or oversight and to add insult to injury, he did so by meddling with something he barely understood. Those deaths are on Tony's hands. Not 1st degree murder, but he's responsible. Involuntary Manslaughter might fit the bill.
Originally posted by ares834
The two aren't remotely comparable TBH. And the Red Hood is just a possible origin for the Joker. Heck, it's called into question by that very comic.
I'm simply trying to make the "heroes creating their own problems" analogy. Perhaps not the best example of thematic similarity, but it was the only thing I could immediately come up with off-hand.
Originally posted by Robtard
Disagree, Ultron was not "basically a person", and I looked it up in Merriam-Webster:1: a branch of computer science dealing with the simulation of intelligent behavior in computers
2: the capability of a machine to imitate intelligent human behavior
Tony created a program that nearly eradicated the human race, he did so without permission or oversight and to add insult to injury, he did so by meddling with something he barely understood. Those deaths are on Tony's hands. Not 1st degree murder, but he's responsible. Involuntary Manslaughter might fit the bill.
Ultron totally was basically a person. He had emotions, was capable of higher level consciousness, could clearly think like a person and understand humor, religion, psychology etc. True AI has always been a machine advanced enough to be almost indistinguishable from a real person, that's what Tony and Bruce are talking about at the start of the movie and why they needed something as advanced as the mind stone to get it right.
I pretty clearly said his actions were wrong, but the final blame for everything has to be on Ultron considering he's the one who independently decided to do it all and went through with it.
Originally posted by QuincyHe and everyone else has said Tony has blame in this. That Tony was reckless for what he did.
Do you agree that Tony Stark shoulders the blame as well?
But he is saying people are trying to directly hold Tony responsible for another person's actions. As in would you hold a parent responsible for the deaths caused by their children.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ultron totally was basically a person. He had emotions, was capable of higher level consciousness, could clearly think like a person and understand humor, religion, psychology etc. True AI has always been a machine advanced enough to be almost indistinguishable from a real person, that's what Tony and Bruce are talking about at the start of the movie and why they needed something as advanced as the mind stone to get it right.I pretty clearly said his actions were wrong, but the final blame for everything has to be on Ultron considering he's the one who independently decided to do it all and went through with it.
Or was it such a clever program that it imitated a human well enough.
Except they didn't "get it right", the goal was to create an AI that would protect the planet, but they created an Armageddon machine, because they (Tony more so) tampered with something they barely understood.
Tony should be in prison.
Originally posted by Quincy
Didn't Tony create him with the intent to protect humanity, he just doofed it up and it became "To save humanity I have to kill humanity."That was Starks directive
The mission was "peace in our time."
Ultron decided the only way to achieve peace in one generation was the extinction of the human race.
No direct crime was committed by Tony Stark. Tony created a Frankenstein, if you will, who ended up committing some grievous crimes.
While Tony won't be convicted for any legal wrongdoing, he'll probably get lots of heat and pressure from governments and from people in Civil War. Tony will probably crumble under the pressure and guilt, siding against Captain America.
Originally posted by Firefly218
No direct crime was committed by Tony Stark. Tony created a Frankenstein, if you will, who ended up committing some grievous crimes.While Tony won't be convicted for any legal wrongdoing, he'll probably get lots of heat and pressure from governments and from people in Civil War. Tony will probably crumble under the pressure and guilt, siding against Captain America.
Are you aware of the storyline of Civil War?