Dooku vs Maul

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Your attemopts to delay my responses are trsnaprent and petty/devious. I do not have time to search fro the source, it exists, it happened, it is in canoin.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Qui-Gon both learnt how to become a Force Ghost without any training and took on Yoda as his padawan, and was later invited to join the family of the Ones on Mortis, which was only offered to the most poweerful of Force Users,

If he's so powerful with the force why didn't he use it in his fight with Darth Maul? Because he wasn't.

Because Jedis do not sue the Force for offence, only defence.

1. So you can't prove Qui-Gon is one of the orders best swordsmen, thus making Darth Maul's feat less impressive.

2. You haven't provided how Darth Maul's fight with Sidious happened - don't use it.

3. It's stupid to believe Maul as of TPM was even close to Sidious. We see Sidious using lightning on him later in the Clone Wars series, where he is even more powerful. This is also with the help of Savage Opress.

4. His feat against Anoon Bondara is impressive, but she's considered the best in a time where Qui-Gon were one of the best jedi, so it doesn't say much.

5. Dooku did far better in AotC against Anakin and Kenobi than Maul did versus Qui-Gon and Kenobi.

6.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
1. So you can't prove Qui-Gon is one of the orders best swordsmen, thus making Darth Maul's feat less impressive.

2. You haven't provided how Darth Maul's fight with Sidious happened - don't use it.

I have given you the info it not my fault you dont want to believe it when other peole have confirme it.

3. It's stupid to believe Maul as of TPM was even close to Sidious. We see Sidious using lightning on him later in the Clone Wars series, where he is even more powerful. This is also with the help of Savage Opress.

Actually he is less powerful during CW and that is with the Force.

4. His feat against Anoon Bondara is impressive, but she's considered the best in a time where Qui-Gon were one of the best jedi, so it doesn't say much.

She was considered the best swordsmen period, including Yoda and Mace Windu and everyone, and Qui-Gon is arguably the greatest Jedi of that time perido.

5. Dooku did far better in AotC against Anakin and Kenobi than Maul did versus Qui-Gon and Kenobi.

1. He did nt fight them at the same time.

2. Neither were on level of Qui-Gon.

3. He used force against Anakin so when he came back he wa probably hurt and weaknned.

6. [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
I have given you the info it not my fault you dont want to believe it when other peole have confirme it.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Actually he is less powerful during CW and that is with the Force.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
She was considered the best swordsmen period, including Yoda and Mace Windu and everyone,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
and Qui-Gon is arguably the greatest Jedi of that time perido.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
2. Neither were on level of Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
3. He used force against Anakin so when he came back he wa probably hurt and weaknned.

So by using this argument you could say Dooku was also tired after his fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, thus making his feat versus Yoda even more impressive.

Dooku would rape Qui-Gon with a saber as well as with the force.

likewise Qui-Gon and Mace Windu were considered roughly on par, so no matter how you see it Dooku does not possess a single fear thgar is on par witgh the way Maul destroyedb Qui-Gon with bease while outnumbered.

Moreover, sparring sessions mean nothing. One of the Masters sparred Windu, yet, Sidious took him down with a single attack. In "I, Jedi" book Corran Horn was beating crap out of Luke in sparring, yet, later he was gapping at how casually Luke handles 5 Jensarai.
In sparring survival insinct and adrenalin don't work, thus you never see their true capabilities.

By the way, nice to see you back Obi-Wan_Padawan. 😉

Maul is far more powerful in the CW, especially with the force.

No he is not he has been locked away for 10 years not improving but in fact deteriorating.,

And I was saying that Sidious using lightning on him is with the force, not a saber.

Yoda is more or less equal (or slightly superior) to Sidious in sabers. Maul can't beat Sidious, but he can beat Anoon Bodara who is above Yoda? Doesn't make sense. Yoda and Mace in AotC/RotS>>>Anoon Bodara.

He an't beat Sidious when ahd been starved and fatigued for over a wek? And all I said is that Anoon Bondara is the best swordsmen, it is possible that Yoda would defeat him due to pure athleticism.

AotC Kenobi is most likely very close to Qui-Gon at that time (13 years after TPM) and AotC Anakin did better versus Dooku than AotC Kenobi, so they're very close, if not on par.

Now you is just making ridiculous claims. You have no evidence that AotC Obi was even close to Qui-Gon, who was one of the best swordsmen in the order, and Obi ws not even a master.

So by using this argument you could say Dooku was also tired after his fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, thus making his feat versus Yoda even more impressive.

Dooku would rape Qui-Gon with a saber as well as with the force.

Hurt > tired.

Please you have provided no proof for that claim. Cpunt Dooku, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, Bindara were all probably on par with eachtoher as they were all the greatets swordsmen in the order and gace each other good fights, only one who was notably better than them was probably Yoda maybe. Maul trouncing one of them makes him better than any of them and possibly on par or even better than Yoda.

Since when did peopel egt the imrpessiont hat Qui=gone is somehow weak\./

Originally posted by Arhael
I personally searched through all sourcebooks with Qui-Gon and none says that he sparred Windu or Dooku or that he was on parr with anybody. The source that wookieepedia points to is a false claim. If you can provide actual quotes andd sources, then, please, do so.

Moreover, sparring sessions mean nothing. One of the Masters sparred Windu, yet, Sidious took him down with a single attack. In "I, Jedi" book Corran Horn was beating crap out of Luke in sparring, yet, later he was gapping at how casually Luke handles 5 Jensarai.
In sparring survival insinct and adrenalin don't work, thus you never see their true capabilities.

By the way, nice to see you back Obi-Wan_Padawan. 😉

In Cloak of Deception - Anoon Bondara states that while some viewed himelef as the best swordsman in the order, he personally felt humbled when sparring with mace windu or qui-gon.

Can't remember where the quote that ptus him on par with windu is, but imo making anoon bondara feel humbled is a better feat anyway.

And yes sparring is not the same as real lfie and death situation but it is great way to guage how skilled one anothe ris.,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
No he is not he has been locked away for 10 years not improving but in fact deteriorating.,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
And I was saying that Sidious using lightning on him is with the force, not a saber.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
He an't beat Sidious when ahd been starved and fatigued for over a wek? And all I said is that Anoon Bondara is the best swordsmen, it is possible that Yoda would defeat him due to pure athleticism.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Now you is just making ridiculous claims. You have no evidence that AotC Obi was even close to Qui-Gon,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
who was one of the best swordsmen in the order,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Please you have provided no proof for that claim. Cpunt Dooku, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, Bindara were all probably on par with eachtoher as they were all the greatets swordsmen in the order and gace each other good fights, only one who was notably better than them was probably Yoda maybe. Maul trouncing one of them makes him better than any of them and possibly on par or even better than Yoda.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Since when did peopel egt the imrpessiont hat Qui=gone is somehow weak\./

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Please watch the episoe where Maul dominates Savage and pull a landing aircraft down from a cliff with the force. That>>>Whatever Maul had done with the force before.

Depends on how you looks at it Maul is more of a saber specialist so he doesnt really use the force offensively all that much, but pre-tpm he does have some pretty good feasts, namely tanking force lightning from a nightsister and when somebody tried to read his mind they died in their attempt.

Given that he didnt spend that time doing anything I don't see why he would have improved.

Most likely hi disarmed him in some way or another before using his lightning.

Haven't seen it.

In Shadowhunter it says Maul sees Plo Koon as a real challenge for him. Plo Koon is probably only a few steps ahead of Fisto, who Sidious pwned while fending off Mace.

Well maybe we can put Plo Koon on that level as well, if Mauls assessement is actually accurate. BTW i have read Shadowhunter and I don;t remember that but unlike you I will not demand proof but rather for just someone else to verify.

True, however it's obvious he had 13 years to improve since his TPM self, so it's likely he should be on that level.

Qui-Gon was one of the top Jedis at the time, with a saber or with the force. Not just anybody can ever reach that level, with 13 years of training (which really isn;t that much) or 50 years of training. There were many jedis in the order who had decades of experience, who wouldnt be close to the best in the order.

So I'm afraid this is not a good aergument for aotc obi-wan (who again was not even a master) for being on qui-gon's level.

Still no proof.

Quit your whining others have cponfirmed it.

What's Anoons feats? It's hard to back a quote without anything to go on. What did Anoon do to achieve the title of the orders best swordsman?

By simply being that good, by being the best? he would train and spar with the other Jedi, they would no how good he was, aas trhere was no siths around at the time he didnt have chance to demonstrate his skills in life or death situations until maul who was one of the most powerful sith apprentices ever.

Because he didn't impress against Maul and he has no feats to go by.

As already said, he was one of the best swordsmen, learnt to become a ghost unaided, and later joined the family of ones on mortis, reserved for only the most powerful force users of all time/.

Ever think that maybe Maul is just that good of a swrodsmean>

Just because he jumps around alot and has horns and tatoos does not mean he is good. And again, the quote about Qui-Gon is from Wookiepedia, unless you can provide an exact quote.

CW Maul with he help of Savage failed to defeat CW Kenobi.

RotS Dooku casually fended off RotS Kenobi (superior to CW Kenobi) who had the help of RotS Anakin.

And Plo Koons best feat is fighting off Ventress with a broken arm. And Dooku has already proven to be superior to Ventress with a saber, both in head to head but also considering how easily he disarmed Grievous, who Ventress didn't dominate, though she looked like she was winning.

and the quote: He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu.

RotS Dooku casually fended off RotS Kenobi (superior to CW Kenobi) who had the help of RotS Anakin.

As for Plo Koon completely agree. While one handed style can be as effective, it is not the fact that he specialised in it. And there are very few Jedi in SW that could ignore pain to such extend, so indeed he is among the top. Comparing him to Fisto is absurd.

As already said, he was one of the best swordsmen, learnt to become a ghost unaided, and later joined the family of ones on mortis, reserved for only the most powerful force users of all time/.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Dooku is absolute top tier and you can't say the same for Maul...

Originally posted by Arhael
That doesn't mean anything. Jedi tend to hold back, when fighting in group.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ventress was fending off Kenobi and Anakin, yet, couldn't outskill neither of them.

Who's to say they did in that fight?

Just strictly by film look at speed of Anakin and Kenobi, when they fought Dooku and then compare to speed, when they fought each other. Kenobi had to block more attacks from Anakin alone than Dooku from both of them. Even speed of Windu vs Sidious doesn't compare.

Did she fight them at the same time, or one after one? Link to fight?

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Yoda's style (not to mention his frame) isn't built for melee attacks, not to mention his style is about frenetic, backwards, forwards and lateral movement to disorient his opponent, so it would be against his style to continuously push his opponent back. So everything that you mentioned goes compeltely against Yoda's style as a fighter.

I'm going to give you credit here for putting some thought into your response.

But I'm still not seeing or buying that Yoda was kicking Dooku's ass, because there's nothing at all in the fight that suggests that. Dooku held his own for a decent time after an exhaustive attempt at overpowering Yoda with the Force.

The chances are the fight would have continued for another 10seconds at least which would have made it approx the same length as Mace vs Sidious fight. So your theory that fights between top tiers last much longer is false.

Also Yoda does drive opponents back, and he disarms them. In Dark Rendezvous Yoda drives Dooku back slowly. "Slowly, slowly Dooku gave ground.."
And he in the ROTS script he drives Sidious back almost sending him flying off the pod causing him to drop his Saber.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom

CW Maul with he help of Savage failed to defeat CW Kenobi.

Well technically Maul defeated Kenobi with the Force Push. And that was without help from Savage.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom

RotS Dooku casually fended off RotS Kenobi (superior to CW Kenobi) who had the help of RotS Anakin.

Dooku never penetrated Kenobi's Saber defenses. In fact even Anakin seemingly couldn't and he defeated Dooku in Sabers.

And I'm not sure where this idea comes from that ROTS Kenobi is superior to Current CW Kenobi. He already seems to be at the top of his game Saber wise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well technically Maul defeated Kenobi with the Force Push. And that was without help from Savage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku never penetrated Kenobi's Saber defenses.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I'm not sure where this idea comes from that ROTS Kenobi is superior to Current CW Kenobi. He already seems to be at the top of his game Saber wise.

Sorry, I could've left it out. He is obviously always gonna improve even though it's in such a small margin so there's no reason to see a difference between CW and RotS Kenobi. My fault here.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I'm talking in pure sabers Maul and Savage didn't impress.

Or maybe Obi-Wan is just That Good in Sabers?!

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Well, how was he then able to get in 2 force pushes? That to me seems like Dooku penetrating Kenobi's defenses.

In that case Maul also penetrated Kenobi's defenses twice.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Sorry, I could've left it out. He is obviously always gonna improve even though it's in such a small margin so there's no reason to see a difference between CW and RotS Kenobi. My fault here.

You are forgiven 🙂

Maybe it is time to agree and disagree Power/Mom. I clearly wont be able to convince you that destroying a top tier Jedi is a better feat than surviving against maybe a better jedi for 30 seconds, but then clearly you either heavily ovrestimate the difference between Yoda and Jinn, or heavily underestimate the difference between surviving against someone, and wrecking them with ease.