Dooku vs Maul

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Since you mentioned this, do you mind explaining how you reached the conclusion that Fisto is not on Kenobi's level? Most people base this opinion on Kenobi's fights against Maul&Savage and Anakin, opponents whom Fisto has never even faced.

No he never faced them. What he did face was a far less powerful darksider- early CW Ventress, who he was clearly inferior to.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The best way we can compare Kenobi and Fisto, is by their perfomances against Grievous.

Yeah if you want to completely ignore context (CW Kenobi fought off and defeated Grievous plus a Magnaguard in a very confined space, while Fisto only fought Grievous in an open environment, by himself, for a sufficiently long fight, and still never actually defeated him).

And if you want to also ignore how much Kenobi improved in the CW.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi has consistently struggled against Grievous except in ROTS, and even then, it still was not an extremely easy fight for Kenobi. It may have been a very short lightsaber duel, but still not an easy one. In the ROTS novel, Grievous's speed was said to have overloaded Obi Wan's defenses. However, due to Obi Wan's fighting style he managed to evade Grievous' saber strikes and was able to disarm him of two lightsabers. He was able to quite handily defeat Grievous that time because of his fighting style, and because of his experience with Grievous. Fisto on the other hand was comfortably outclassing Grievous (without Kenobi's experience with him). Grievous didn't seem to hold any advantage over Fisto, not even his speed. Fisto was pushing Grievous back majority of the fight. So to me, if ROTS Kenobi was so much better than Fisto, then he should have done substantially better against Grievous, considering his far more experience with him. In fact, Kenobi seemed more hardpressed to defeat Grievous, seeing how Grievous speed was momentarily overloading his defenses, whereas Fisto was handling it just fine.

What is this s***?! We don't have a novel version of the Fisto vs Grievous fight to compare how "difficult" he found it comapred to ROTS Kenobi. But if we go by visuals Kenobi's stompage over Grievous was well beyond what we saw Fisto do to the same opponent.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Best Jedi swordsman in the order? No not at all that is yoda or windu to suggest otherwise is asinine. You have to remember that a lot of what is said by other characters within books is hyperbole especially when evidence points to the contrary. Qui-gon being on par with windu is such hyperbole. Perhaps maybe when windu was younger but ROTS windu is far far above qui-gon in every way except philosophy AND forward thinking as is ROTS dooku especially after becoming a sith.
Makashi is weak against overwhelming styles only if the person using them is powerful physically. Maul is a very short in stature and small combatant dooku is almost 6'5 tall and though he's old he holds an overbearing position against maul due to sheer size. Sidious wtf owned maul in their training and windu beat Sidious in saber combat So to suggest maul is the absolute best duelist is just beyond reason.
Visual evidence of footwork means nothing because its personal observation based on nothing other then ones own personal assessment rather then actual knowledge. Simply because someone bounces around all over the place does not mean better footwork. dooku is possibly THE master of footwork in the entire prequel series because makashi is all about subtle footwork which is far more advanced then jumping around and being flashy.
By ROTS maul is a high level saber duelist at best but he is not yoda, windu, dooku or Anakin tier. He is closer to ventress tier maybe slightly better but even grievous would give maul a lot of trouble.

Not ture Yoda is not actually a great swordsman he relies on his overwhelming athleticism to overwhelm his opponents, likewise Mace Windu has many hole sin his game not the leats of which is his timing and his stance has many holes in it. Anoon Bondara is stated to be the best swordsmen in the order, and Qui-Gon used to be a sparring partner and push him to his limits, likewise Qui-Gon and Mace Windu were considered roughly on par, so no matter how you see it Dooku does not possess a single fear thgar is on par witgh the way Maul destroyedb Qui-Gon with bease while outnumbered,. The best people that Dooku ever faced, Obi-Wan and Anakin, he had to use the force to dispatch. In lightsabers only he would get overwhelmed by Maul's athleticism and skill. Maul is Lyoto Machida to Dooku's Randy Couture.,

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Not ture Yoda is not actually a great swordsman he relies on his overwhelming athleticism to overwhelm his opponents, likewise Mace Windu has many hole sin his game not the leats of which is his timing and his stance has many holes in it. Anoon Bondara is stated to be the best swordsmen in the order, and Qui-Gon used to be a sparring partner and push him to his limits, likewise Qui-Gon and Mace Windu were considered roughly on par, so no matter how you see it Dooku does not possess a single fear thgar is on par witgh the way Maul destroyedb Qui-Gon with bease while outnumbered,. The best people that Dooku ever faced, Obi-Wan and Anakin, he had to use the force to dispatch. In lightsabers only he would get overwhelmed by Maul's athleticism and skill. Maul is Lyoto Machida to Dooku's Randy Couture.,

Simply saying that Yoda is not the best swordsman does not make it true sorry. an overwhelming amount of material says otherwise. Mace Windu has many holes, his timing and stance? Your just making crap up now. What your saying means nothing and obviously you didn't read half of what I said because you didn't address nearly any of it. Bondara being the "best" is hyperbole. being the Jedi battle master does not make you the best but it will lead other Jedi to say things like Cin Drallig is the "most proficient practitioner with a light saber" out of respect for his position and overall knowledge but Drallig was beaten by Anakin using 1 hand. Also Dooku beat Anakin And Obi-Wan with only his saber in their first battle. It took the likes of either Yoda or Mace to best Dooku in light saber duels. No mention of Bondara there is there? Specifically it says in dookus entire time in the Jedi order only mace and yoda were good enough to potentially best him in saber combat. It does not say mace, yoda and Bondara. Why? because Bondara being that good is hyperbole and he's no where near the top tier of saber duelists. Having extensive knowledge of all the forms so you can teach them does not make you good but it does get you respect. yoda is an absolute master of all forms as well except vaapad. You need to look at overall evidence, basing your entire argument of one single quote when all evidence otherwise points to the contrary is just bad argument.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
As an expert in martial arts and fighting for over ten eyars and as someone wirh correspondance to Nick I think I am safe in making that call.

Oh god....well it's good to know my argument with this guy is over. This $hit is hilarious lol. I wouldn't have even bothered to type my last post out had I read this first.

Anakin and Obi were newbs when Dooku beat them in the first battle, and you cannot prove thatAnoon Boindara ever even faced Dooku, because if he didnt he would have no chance to defeat him. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying but Anoon Boindara was the best swordsmen in the order, it is stated and it is canon, and my insights into his stance and timing is based off of ym experience as a martial arts practitioner, trainer and competeitor which is vast.

Now post please Dooku's bets feat with just lightsabers and explain how it tops embarassing Qui-Gon while outnumbered please bro.

What is big problem? Should I not share a piece of information just because some people might not believe it? If you want to back out of the argument that's fine but don't do it just because I am explaining why I am in a position to judge these fighters.

Bantha got your tail Anomaly?

Dooku has survived twice against Yoda, and did good either time.
Then he also fought even with Mace on Boz Pity.

This alone puts Dooku above Maul in sabers.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Anakin and Obi were newbs when Dooku beat them in the first battle, and you cannot prove thatAnoon Boindara ever even faced Dooku, because if he didnt he would have no chance to defeat him. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying but Anoon Boindara was the best swordsmen in the order, it is stated and it is canon, and my insights into his stance and timing is based off of ym experience as a martial arts practitioner, trainer and competeitor which is vast.

Now post please Dooku's bets feat with just lightsabers and explain how it tops embarassing Qui-Gon while outnumbered please bro.

He was the battlemaster of the order and dooku was one of the best if not arguably the best swordsman at the time. The likelihood they never sparred is extremely low. Also, it's not stated directly he was the best sorry. It's hyperbole. If you can't understand what that means then that's your fault not mine. When an in story character says something it cannot automatically be taken as fact. Hell mace windu once said Obi-Wan was a better swordsman then himself. Is called hyperbole. Characters say things in character that might not be objectively true based on evidence. This is the case with Bondara. You have no evidence at all besides one small hyperboles quote that you've taken out of context. To make it worse there is literally heaps of canon material that totally refute your claim. I won't even get into how stupid your comment about you "knowing" martial arts is so that you can "analyze" a fight from the movie. You do now they are not really fighting in the movie right? It's more a choreographed dance then an actual real fight. Therefore any retarded opinion on footwork from seeing it that you think you have is completely asinine because its not real. Are you truly that diluted that you think this way? I hope your trolling otherwise I feel sorry for you honestly.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku has survived twice against Yoda, and did good either time.

And an enraged Maul has almost best Sidious.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Then he also fought even with Mace on Boz Pity.

This won't be canon anymore. The whole Obsession story will either need to be thrown out completely or redone in the CW Series.

Anyway I've agreed Dooku wins. I just think Maul will put up a good fight first.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And an enraged Maul has almost best Sidious.

This won't be canon anymore. The whole Obsession story will either need to be thrown out completely or redone in the CW Series.

Anyway I've agreed Dooku wins. I just think Maul will put up a good fight first.

He didn't almost beat Sidious, it's perfectly clear in the context of that duel that Sidious wanted to see how far maul would go, that if he would truly go so far to kill him. Sidious was testing maul to see if he was worthy of being a true sith. Its perfectly obviously stated in that duel what was happening. Immediately after that he totally owns maul. Does no one here understand context? Wtf

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
He didn't almost beat Sidious, it's perfectly clear in the context of that duel that Sidious wanted to see how far maul would go, that if he would truly go so far to kill him. Sidious was testing maul to see if he was worthy of being a true sith. Its perfectly obviously stated in that duel what was happening. Immediately after that he totally owns maul. Does no one here understand context? Wtf

Context? Right you mean like the fact that Maul was left their to starve and fight for weeks on end first, and hardly had any strength left. And after he used up the last of his force reserves of course Sidious was going to easily best him. Sidious who was fully rested, and Maul notes himself he had plenty of Force Reserves left to feed off.

The Dark Side Source Book says he almost best Sidious. And I'm sure your opinion is not more canon than a source book.

Lol. So in a rematch, you really think Maul would have any chance against Sidious? Or Yoda?

Especially because he seems to end up losing even with Savage on his side later on in CW.

Btw, is the clone wars republic heroes game canon? Because in Dooku's fight with Mace and Kenobi his TK is really good.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]And an enraged Maul has almost best Sidious.

Lol. So in a rematch, you really think Maul would have any chance against Sidious? Or Yoda?

Especially because he seems to end up losing even with Savage on his side later on in CW.

Btw, is the clone wars republic heroes game canon? Because in Dooku's fight with Mace and Kenobi his TK is really good.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]This won't be canon anymore. The whole Obsession story will either need to be thrown out completely or redone in the CW Series.

So far it is still canon. And how do you know this?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
He was the battlemaster of the order and dooku was one of the best if not arguably the best swordsman at the time. The likelihood they never sparred is extremely low. Also, it's not stated directly he was the best sorry. It's hyperbole. If you can't understand what that means then that's your fault not mine. When an in story character says something it cannot automatically be taken as fact. Hell mace windu once said Obi-Wan was a better swordsman then himself. Is called hyperbole. Characters say things in character that might not be objectively true based on evidence. This is the case with Bondara. You have no evidence at all besides one small hyperboles quote that you've taken out of context. To make it worse there is literally heaps of canon material that totally refute your claim. I won't even get into how stupid your comment about you "knowing" martial arts is so that you can "analyze" a fight from the movie. You do now they are not really fighting in the movie right? It's more a choreographed dance then an actual real fight. Therefore any retarded opinion on footwork from seeing it that you think you have is completely asinine because its not real. Are you truly that diluted that you think this way? I hope your trolling otherwise I feel sorry for you honestly.

Your opinion that the likelihood is low buddy for all we know they were stationed at different Jedi temples or maybe they were not in the same social circle and never had proper introductions.

Actually it was the book that stated it not a character so it is Canon.deal with it.,

They were choreographed to emulate real swordfighting buddy and it's no coincidence that I acted as consultation to Nick when he was designing those fights and the forms. Everything that we see in those duels was put there for a reaosn by someone who expertly udnerstands swordfighting.

And as Power said Maul nearly killed Sidious in their duel as well. Dooku fighting against Yoda and Mace Windu wit no success is not a feat, Dooku has nothing to put him on Maul's level, it would be like saying having a NC against Anderson Silva beats a finish over Shogun Rua the furst is not a real feat.

Lol. "Dooku fighting against Yoda and Mace with no succes is not a feat". Lol. Maul's fight against Sidious was succes?

Mention a feat more impressive than Dooku's fight against Yoda. I'd like to hear it.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Lol. So in a rematch, you really think Maul would have any chance against Sidious? Or Yoda?

No. When did I imply that? I was replying to someone who said Dooku has done well against Yoda therefore Maul wouldn't stand a chance, and responded that Maul has actually done well once against Sidious as well. Although he was in a fit of rage at the time.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Especially because he seems to end up losing even with Savage on his side later on in CW.

As we saw with Sidious vs Mace & crew or with Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan, having help doesn't always make much difference.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Btw, is the clone wars republic heroes game canon? Because in Dooku's fight with Mace and Kenobi his TK is really good.

Yes it's canon but we never actually see a fight between Dooku. Mace and Obi-Wan. All we know is Dooku lost. It could have been a 3 second fight before Dooku lost.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
So far it is still canon. And how do you know this?

How can it be? Ventress was still with Dooku and it ended with her leaving him and the war. CW Series will decide her fate now, and she left Dooku long ago.

Not to mention other obvious contradictions like Grievous killing Adi Gallia.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Lol. "Dooku fighting against Yoda and Mace with no succes is not a feat". Lol. Maul's fight against Sidious was succes?

Mention a feat more impressive than Dooku's fight against Yoda. I'd like to hear it.

What is it you don't get about it being a feat buddy? At bets you can sya he survived against Yoda for what, 30 seconds? That is not a feat. Maul came close to defeating Sidious, Dooku and Yoda fought for 30 seconds in a non eventval fight. A feat wiyld be defeating someone or at least coming close, and Maul has near defeats over Sidious and easy wins over Qui-Gon and Bondaras. Dooku has what? Sharing the same room as Yoda once? Please bro you have not listed a single feat for Dooku that stacks up against any of Maul's. Dooku only impressive feats are with the Force, his lightsaber only feats are lacking.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
What is it you don't get about it being a feat buddy? At bets you can sya he survived against Yoda for what, 30 seconds? That is not a feat.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Maul came close to defeating Sidious,

You can't base your argument on that. Maul, at that time, got his lightsaber cut in half by an enraged Kenobi. How is that impressive?

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
and Maul has near defeats over Sidious and easy wins over Qui-Gon and Bondaras.

Easy win over Qui-Gon? Impressive, but Dooku would slaughter Qui-Gon with a saber.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Dooku only impressive feats are with the Force, his lightsaber only feats are lacking.

1. Holding his own against Yoda twice.
2. Disarming Grievous easily.
3. Going even with Mace.
4. Pwning Kenobi & Anakin in AotC.
5. Casually handling Kenobi in RotS while fending off Anakin.
6. Pwning Tholme.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
How is this not a feat? He could've gone on for a while probably.

Probabl;y as in your opinion bro.

A Sidious with no intention of killing him.

Prove it if Maul was close to killing him naturally idious woul fight back.

You can't base your argument on that. Maul, at that time, got his lightsaber cut in half by an enraged Kenobi. How is that impressive?

This was a fluke and an enraged Obi-Wan caught Maul off guard.

Easy win over Qui-Gon? Impressive, but Dooku would slaughter Qui-Gon with a saber.

Prove it. Qui-Gon was on par weith the best swordsmen in the order, when did Dooku ever get such claims?

1. Holding his own against Yoda twice.

Not a feat.

2. Disarming Grievous easily.

Same Grievous who kit Fisto tools with ease>

3. Going even with Mace.

Not a feat.

4. Pwning Kenobi & Anakin in AotC.[/qyote]

Newbs at the time.

[quote]5. Casually handling Kenobi in RotS while fending off Anakin.

With the Force?

6. Pwning Tholme.

Who?

Face it friend Maul's saber feats far outdo Dooku's.