Dooku vs Maul

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I understand, but Filoni is the director of the show. So you would be wrong.

Dude Filoni's words are not the equivalent of Lucas's. I.e. They are not to be taken as complete canon. Well not as of now anyway. It's his opinion, that's all.

I can see how Kenobi was fighting better than Maul, but I can't for the life of me see how Maul was defeated by Obi-Wan.

I think Sam Witwer's opinion that it was a tie would be a more appropriate opinion to take than Filoni's claiming that Obi-Wan defeated both Maul and Opress.

Filoni being the Supervising Director of the show does not take precedent over what actually happened in the show. He didn't write or direct this story, and he didn't write or direct the last one either.

I just don't see what the big deal is. Sure, Obi Wan's performance against Maul and Savage was good. After all, he is a very skilled jedi with loads of experience, but I'm not sure I would call it his best feat, especially when I consider the things Tempest already brought out, and some of the other disadvantages the zabrak bros already have. Think about it: we have Maul, who is not yet fully accustomed to his new legs, fighting alongside his sloppy and untrained brother whose only real advantage over most jedi is his strength (not exactly the ideal partner to have as a team in a sword-fight). Then we have them fighting Obi Wan in a confined area, which would hinder their performance even further. Any skilled duelist should be able to take advantage of this. And as Neph brought out, we don't consider Ventress > Obi Wan and Anakin just because she fought both them off at the same time, which is, in fact, actually more impressive, considering that Obi Wan and Anakin are both very skilled warriors and are both experts on fighting as a team (something Maul and Savage do not have in common). Where is all the hype over Ventress?

My opinion is that they are all in the same league, each with their own advantages & disadvantages, and with their own style of fighting. And Fisto is right up there with them lol

^ Opress has 2 Advantages over most Jedi, not just 1: Huge Strength and a lot of raw power in the Force.

The difference between the Obi-Wan fight and the Ventress fight, is that Ventress's opponents had Jedi restraint. They tried not to kill her and gave her multiple opportunities to surrender. Plus that was clearly a Rage Enhanced Ventress.

Whilst Obi-Wan's opponents clearly were not holding back. Also so what if the fight was in a confined space, and Obi-Wan could attempt to fight them one at a time. It still proves he was better than either 1.

I don't believe they are all in the same league at all. Maul clearly showed he's out of Opress's league. Kenobi showed he's the best combatant out of the 3 of them (although probably only slightly better than Maul). And Opress battered Ventress in the last epiosde. But I'm sure she'd put up a better fight with both her Sabers.

So in Sabers: Obi-Wan > Maul>> Opress =/> Ventress.

In the Force: Maul > Opress >> Kenobi =/> Ventress.

All Out: Well that's why Versus forums are so much fun. (But I think it's clear Ventress would be at the bottom of those 4.)

And no Fisto is not up there with any of them 😠

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I just don't see what the big deal is. Sure, Obi Wan's performance against Maul and Savage was good. After all, he is a very skilled jedi with loads of experience, but I'm not sure I would call it his best feat, especially when I consider the things Tempest already brought out, and some of the other disadvantages the zabrak bros already have. Think about it: we have Maul, who is not yet fully accustomed to his new legs, fighting alongside his sloppy and untrained brother whose only real advantage over most jedi is his strength (not exactly the ideal partner to have as a team in a sword-fight). Then we have them fighting Obi Wan in a confined area, which would hinder their performance even further. Any skilled duelist should be able to take advantage of this. And as Neph brought out, we don't consider Ventress > Obi Wan and Anakin just because she fought both them off at the same time, which is, in fact, actually more impressive, considering that Obi Wan and Anakin are both very skilled warriors and are both experts on fighting as a team (something Maul and Savage do not have in common). Where is all the hype over Ventress?

My opinion is that they are all in the same league, each with their own advantages & disadvantages, and with their own style of fighting. And Fisto is right up there with them lol

Yeah, all Dave did was validate my wisdom: many fights in TCW hinge on circumstance, environment, state of mind, etc. If there were any real distance between Obi-Wan and Maul, it would have been made manifest the two other times they fought one-on-one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dude Filoni's words are not the equivalent of Lucas's. I.e. They are not to be taken as complete canon. Well not as of now anyway. It's his opinion, that's all.

I can see how Kenobi was fighting better than Maul, but I can't for the life of me see how Maul was defeated by Obi-Wan.

I think Sam Witwer's opinion that it was a tie would be a more appropriate opinion to take than Filoni's claiming that Obi-Wan defeated both Maul and Opress.

Filoni being the Supervising Director of the show does not take precedent over what actually happened in the show. He didn't write or direct this story, and he didn't write or direct the last one either.

Uhhh the episode's theme was 'Strength in character can defeat strength in numbers'
Jesus Christ.

Clearly referring to political strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Clearly referring to political strength.

Clearly 🙄

Maul can't be on Obi-Wan's level tbh, because Anakin toyed with Cin Drallig after all.

QED.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, all Dave did was validate my wisdom: many fights in TCW hinge on circumstance, environment, state of mind, etc. If there were any real distance between Obi-Wan and Maul, it would have been made manifest the two other times they fought one-on-one.

Yup, it's the way it should be, IMO.

Also: I guess I shouldn't say Savage is untrained anymore. Partially trained is more like it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh the episode's theme was 'Strength in character can [B]defeat strength in numbers'
Jesus Christ. [/B]

And yet Maul was the only one left standing and uninjured at the end of the fight.

Look I've agreed with you Obi-Wan was clearly the better duelist to Maul.

But before you shout Jesus's name at least point me to the part where Maul was defeated by Obi-Wan. Until you or Dave Filoni can do that I don't see why I have to believe either of you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Maul was the only one left standing and uninjured at the end of the fight.

Look I've agreed with you Obi-Wan was clearly the better duelist to Maul.

But before you shout Jesus's name at least point me to the part where Maul was [b]defeated by Obi-Wan. Until you or Dave Filoni can do that I don't see why I have to believe either of you. [/B]

Dave Filoni is an authority on canon. You are not. Maul and Savage were defeated by Kenobi. He forced them into retreat.
Its the same with Yoda vs. Sidious. Yoda was force to retreat, as a result he lost the battle, but he won the war as his escape ultimately lead to the defeat of the Emperor.

When a battle ensues and one side retreats, it is considered a loss for the retreating side.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Its the same with Yoda vs. Sidious. Yoda was force to retreat, as a result he lost the battle, but he won the war as his escape ultimately lead to the defeat of the Emperor.

This is a bad example for your argument: Yoda kept up with Sidious throughout the entire duel and, according to the script, disarmed him.

All you've done is prove that the outcome of a duel and the outcome of the larger battle can differ. The official site says that Maul fled to protect Savage and because the pirates had turned against him. He certainly lost the battle; he did not lose the duel.

I remember a certain someone arguing against the idea that Sidious was disarmed...

Originally posted by ares834
I remember a certain someone arguing against the idea that Sidious was disarmed...

Well it certainly doesn't fit with how the film was edited, so the poster you remember may very well be right, but it is in the script, which is all I said.*

*My cleverness and general ability to exploit loopholes never ceases to amaze me.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dave Filoni is an authority on canon. You are not. Maul and Savage were defeated by Kenobi. He forced them into retreat.
Its the same with Yoda vs. Sidious. Yoda was force to retreat, as a result he lost the battle, but he won the war as his escape ultimately lead to the defeat of the Emperor.

When a battle ensues and one side retreats, it is considered a loss for the retreating side.

Yes in the scale of the whole battle the Brothers had lost. Maul says himself "Come Savage this plan has failed." And Kenobi fighting them both off and battering Opress was a significant part of that failure. It seems Maul actually cares for his brother and wanted to protect him.

So in the sense of the whole battle and whole situation yeah you could say Dave is right Obi-Wan had them defeated.

But in terms of the actual fight between Obi-Wan and the Maul brothers, Maul himself was never hurt, injured or disarmed. Heck he was never even put on his ass even for a second.

And the fight ended with Maul being the only one still standing with his weapon and completely unharmed. So I really can't for the life of me see how, when or where Obi-Wan actually defeated Maul in combat.

What I can agree to is that Kenobi matched both brothers together in Sabers and clearly battered one of them while still fighting off the other. And yeah it was an Uber feat showing Kenobi's superiority over the Maul brothers (in pure Sabers) and putting Kenobi among the Top PT Saber Duelists Imho.

But despite all that let's be honest with ourselves, Maul was clearly shown to be much more powerful in the Force than Kenobi. And even in Sabers it's not like Kenobi can defeat Maul with any kind of ease.

Opress has 2 Advantages over most Jedi, not just 1: Huge Strength and a lot of raw power in the Force.

I assume, that we include Savage's great stamina as "Huge Strenght", right? In not, it's his third advantage.

So in Sabers: Obi-Wan > Maul>> Opress =/> Ventress.

I would say: Obi-Wan / Maul > Ventress / Opress
It's of course depends on the situation, but look at this: Savage is great, when he has some support, which compare his sloppy, slow moves. When he fights Kenobi or Dooku he was able to overwhelm them, only because they were focusing on other opponent. Despite, that they aren't prepared to fight. If he fights someone, who is prepare to fight him, he just suck (Maul just destroy him... I don't think, that he would be able to destroy Ventress as easily).

In the Force: Maul > Opress >> Kenobi =/> Ventress.

I would say: Maul > Kenobi >/= Ventress > Opress

Ok, its right, that Opress has a lot of raw power. But his knowledge of the force is... hard to find word...
He was able to catch Dooku once, but it was short after his: "I can't, he is to powerful". It's clear, that after his words Dooku assumed, that he's not a threat anymore. And then, he suprised him.
And look how easily Dooku destroy Ventress by the force, in their one vs one. But he looks unable to find her off guard while he fought them both. i'm pretty sure, that Dooku would be able to destroy Opress the same way as he destroy Ventress.

This is a bad example for your argument: Yoda kept up with Sidious throughout the entire duel and, according to the script, disarmed him.

<3

He certainly lost the battle; he did not lose the duel.

And the fight ended with Maul being the only one still standing with his weapon and completely unharmed. So I really can't for the life of me see how, when or where Obi-Wan actually defeated Maul in combat.

I agree here with you guys 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes in the scale of the whole battle the Brothers had lost. Maul says himself "Come Savage this plan has failed." And Kenobi fighting them both off and battering Opress was a significant part of that failure. It seems Maul actually cares for his brother and wanted to protect him.

So in the sense of the whole battle and whole situation yeah you could say Dave is right Obi-Wan had them defeated.

But in terms of the actual fight between Obi-Wan and the Maul brothers, Maul himself was never hurt, injured or disarmed. Heck he was never even put on his ass even for a second.

And the fight ended with Maul being the only one still standing with his weapon and completely unharmed. So I really can't for the life of me see how, when or where Obi-Wan actually [b]defeated Maul in combat.

What I can agree to is that Kenobi matched both brothers together in Sabers and clearly battered one of them while still fighting off the other. And yeah it was an Uber feat showing Kenobi's superiority over the Maul brothers (in pure Sabers) and putting Kenobi among the Top PT Saber Duelists Imho.

But despite all that let's be honest with ourselves, Maul was clearly shown to be much more powerful in the Force than Kenobi. And even in Sabers it's not like Kenobi can defeat Maul with any kind of ease. [/B]

This is what I've been saying the whole time. In RAW sabers Kenobi is superior to the Maul bros. Throw in TK however and we have a whole different ball game.

I don't think he's necessarily superior to Maul, just Opress.

Originally posted by Zett

I would say: Obi-Wan / Maul > Ventress / Opress
It's of course depends on the situation, but look at this: Savage is great, when he has some support, which compare his sloppy, slow moves. When he fights Kenobi or Dooku he was able to overwhelm them, only because they were focusing on other opponent. Despite, that they aren't prepared to fight. If he fights someone, who is prepare to fight him, he just suck (Maul just destroy him... I don't think, that he would be able to destroy Ventress as easily).

You were talking about a Saber fight here.

I don't know man. In "Revenge" Ventress certainly was prepared to fight him. In fact she specifically went there to hunt Opress. And yet he still battered her.

I can see how she might have been disadvantaged giving up one of her Lightsabers to Obi-Wan. But I wouldn't expect that to make a world of difference. Which is why I say in Sabers Opress =/> Ventress.

Adi Gallia was also prepared to fight Opress, but also got battered.

Originally posted by Zett

I would say: Maul > Kenobi >/= Ventress > Opress

Ok, its right, that Opress has a lot of raw power. But his knowledge of the force is... hard to find word...

You were talking about power in the Force here.
Yes I agree he lacks certain skill and knowledge which is why he can't block Force Lightning even with his Saber.

But I still think against Obi-Wan or Ventress his raw power more than makes up for that.

Go to 1:20 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_e7I4g_Rug

He's completely overpowered a Jedi Council member with one Force push.

Look at 0:56 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g

That force wave seems well beyond Obi-Wan or Ventress to me. You can argue that was in a rage, but even this next one he did while calm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7nyUkxDABE

At 0:43 he tosses Anakin and Obi-Wan's ship.

So I just can't see how Ventress or Obi-Wan can match Opress in Force TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think he's necessarily superior to Maul, just Opress.

In raw sabers? You must be smoking.