Originally posted by ares834
Indeed. My bad. Still, my point still, roughly, stands. Even if Kenobi and Ventress are near equals that's still better than Fisto has ever done against her.
Fisto has never fared that badly against her either. I don't know why you seem to assume only Obi Wan can improve. Ventress with the help of Durge, was once bested by Grievous, who was later tooled by Fisto. So yeah, I'd say we have pretty good evidents that Fisto has improved just as much as they have.
Unless Obi Wan regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous, then I don't see how merely besting her is proof that he is beyond Fisto's league.
Originally posted by ares834
Once again, looking solely at how they fared against Grievous is flawed. After all, as I've already mentioned, even Mace Windu does not do any better than Fisto. And solely based on that, we certainly aren't going to assume Fisto is Windu's equal. So why are we doing this with Kenobi when he, like Windu, has better feats?
I already addressed the Windu part.
No, it's not flawed. Not when we look back and consider all the times Kenobi struggled against Grievous. Obi Wan was only able to match Fisto's performance against Grievous after having much more experience with him. The only thing flawed is arguing that Kenobi is leagues beyond Fisto just because he lasted against Vader. Fisto has never fought Vader, and even if he did, he probably would not last as long as Kenobi did for reasons I already told DP. But it's still not proof Kenobi is far above Kenobi's league, especially when we consider how much Anakin's state of mind was hindering his performance.
I intentionally ignored some of your points. For some reason I can't put my thoughts in proper words at the moment.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto has never fared that badly against her either. I don't know why you seem to assume only Obi Wan can improve. Ventress with the help of Durge, was once bested by Grievous, who was later tooled by Fisto. So yeah, I'd say we have pretty good evidents that Fisto has improved just as much as they have.Unless Obi Wan regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous, then I don't see how merely besting her is proof that he is beyond Fisto's league.
I have no doubt that Fisto improved between the films, in fact, I've admitted that he has. The problem however is how much. The single best feat we have for Fisto is besting Grievous. By contrast, Kenobi has better feats such as besting Ventress and defeating Vader.
BTW, Ventress recently trashed Grievous in a sword duel. And unlike Fisto, she never had to resort to using the force.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I already addressed the Windu part.
Saying, "lol low feat" isn't really addressing it. If he was bested by the General I'd be more inclined to dismiss it as a "low feat", but simply because he didn't stomp him? Nah. Characters, specifically Jedi, generally don't demolish opponents in a saber duel even if their opponent is substantially worse.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not flawed. Not when we look back and consider all the times Kenobi struggled against Grievous. Obi Wan was only able to match Fisto's performance against Grievous after having much more experience with him. The only thing flawed is arguing that Kenobi is leagues beyond Fisto just because he lasted against Vader. Fisto has never fought Vader, and even if he did, he probably would not last as long as Kenobi did for reasons I already told DP. But it's still not proof Kenobi is far above Kenobi's league, especially when we consider how much Anakin's state of mind was hindering his performance.
I'm not saying "leagues beyond", rather I'm saying he would fair far better against Sidious in a duel. Certainly nearly as well as Maul and Savage, both of whom seem to be of similar or lesser skill than Kenobi.
Perhaps, if Sidious could focus all his attention on Kenobi and Kenobi only I could see him being defeated rather quickly. But I don't buy for a second that Sidious could dispatch Obi-Wan on a whim while engaged with another skilled duelist just as Sidious did to Fisto. As for Anakin, I'm not so sure his emotional state dramatically hindered his performance throughout the fight until the end.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I dont really think kenobi had any real trouble with grevious. he only really got kicked to the ground, and that does not conclude to the fact that kenobi struggles against grevious. At all.
Fisto has never fared that badly against her either. I don't know why you seem to assume only Obi Wan can improve. Ventress with the help of Durge, was once bested by Grievous, who was later tooled by Fisto. So yeah, I'd say we have pretty good evidents that Fisto has improved just as much as they have.Unless Obi Wan regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous, then I don't see how merely besting her is proof that he is beyond Fisto's league.
I already addressed the Windu part.
No, it's not flawed. Not when we look back and consider all the times Kenobi struggled against Grievous. Obi Wan was only able to match Fisto's performance against Grievous after having much more experience with him. The only thing flawed is arguing that Kenobi is leagues beyond Fisto just because he lasted against Vader. Fisto has never fought Vader, and even if he did, he probably would not last as long as Kenobi did for reasons I already told DP. But it's still not proof Kenobi is far above Kenobi's league, especially when we consider how much Anakin's state of mind was hindering his performance.
I intentionally ignored some of your points. For some reason I can't put my thoughts in proper words at the moment.
You talk about considering anakins state of mind , but did you ever come to think of kenobis state of mind? how he just found out that his padawan had turned to the dark side? therefore he would be reluctant to kill anakin, as 'he was like a brother' to him.
ares834
BTW, Ventress recently trashed Grievous in a sword duel. And unlike Fisto, she never had to resort to using the force.
True, but Grievous landed a hit on her (unlike Kit), she never disarmed him (unlike Kit), and was clearly goaded into battle rage (unlike Kit). It's still not as impressive.
ares834
I'm not saying "leagues beyond", rather I'm saying he would fair far better against Sidious in a duel.
That may be, but the word that the pro-Obi-Wan faction has been using is "league." Obi-Wan may very well be a better fighter, but the idea that they're in different leagues is, as of now, completely without merit.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
True, but Grievous landed a hit on her (unlike Kit),
Well we didn't see Kit's fight through to the end. If we did we may well have seen Grievous land a hit.
But Kit did feel the need to resort to a Force push unlike Ventress. (Although that may also be to do with Ventress challenging Grievous to honorable comabt tbh).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
she never disarmed him (unlike Kit),
Clearly she didn't need to.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's still not as impressive.
The fact that she's the only force user to defeat him without resorting to using Force TK(as far as I know) is more impressive to me.
That and the fact that her fight was over a year after Fisto's, and we know Dooku was training Grievous through the CW. So the Grievous she faced was likely a more formidable fighter than the one Fisto faced.
I like how it's 'had to resort to a Force Push' instead of 'managed to tag the guy who can dodge Force Pushes with a Force Push.'
As if Grievous was reaming him so much that the Force was his only option, as opposed to Fisto simply using it to kick his ass. And then went on to clearly push Grievous 8ack in str8 sa8ers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how it's 'had to resort to a Force Push' instead of 'managed to tag the guy who can dodge Force Pushes with a Force Push.'
So tagging someone with a force push is impressive now? Let's be honest, if the Jedi has any brains an opponent won't be able to dodge a force push.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As if Grievous was reaming him so much that the Force was his only option, as opposed to Fisto simply using it to kick his ass. And then went on to clearly push Grievous 8ack in str8 sa8ers.
Oh, there is no doubt that Fisto was winning in the sabers department. However, Fisto certainly didn't stomp Grievous in sabers like Ventress did.
Originally posted by ares834
I have no doubt that Fisto improved between the films, in fact, I've admitted that he has. The problem however is how much.
Well he went on to tool Grievous, who early in the clone wars, bested both Ventress and Durge. Seeing how Ventress bested Fisto early in the clone wars, I'd say that is pretty much evident that Fisto improved considerably.
Originally posted by ares834
The single best feat we have for Fisto is besting Grievous. By contrast, Kenobi has better feats such as besting Ventress and defeating Vader.
Every encounter Kenobi has had with Grievous in TCW was clearly a struggle for him. Only after having much experience with Grievous, was Kenobi able to match Fisto's performance against the same opponent. But because Kenobi is about Ventress's equal in combat (barely besting her on a couple of occasion and then being pwned by her on another), we can conclude that he is superior to Fisto? Unless Kenobi regularly tools Ventress as he did Grievous in ROTS, or if it can somehow be proven that Ventress herself is in a different league than Fisto, then I don't see how that is proof that Kenobi is superior to Fisto.
Originally posted by ares834
BTW, Ventress recently trashed Grievous in a sword duel. And unlike Fisto, she never had to resort to using the force.
First of all, I'm not saying Fisto is better than Ventress, so I don't see your point. And second of all, how do you figure Fisto "HAD" to resort to using the force? Fisto's use of the force wasn't a desperate attempt to gain an advantage (seeing how he had to upperhand the entire time), it was more of an attempt to humiliate Grievous, the same way Dooku has done to Grievous in their sparring match.
Originally posted by ares834
Saying, "lol low feat" isn't really addressing it.
That's not all I said. Why are you ignoring my entire argument?
Besides, it's kinda hard to compare Windu's duel with Grievous. They were both fighting on a moving train. And while the disadvantage may have went both ways for both Mace and Grievous, we know Windu had to draw on the force just to keep himself positioned to keep him from flying off, so we don't know if that limited his ability to draw on the force for speed and by how much.
Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps, if Sidious could focus all his attention on Kenobi and Kenobi only I could see him being defeated rather quickly. But I don't buy for a second that Sidious could dispatch Obi-Wan on a whim while engaged with another skilled duelist just as Sidious did to Fisto.
Sidious dispatched all three "celebrated masters" before Windu could do a thing about it. The first two he blitzed before they could even REACT. I don't see how Dooku can prevent him from quickly taking Kenobi out. Again, the speed difference is just too great. At best Kenobi might can avoid being blitzed as fast as they did because of his defensive style (I still doubt that big time but whatever), but he definitely isn't going to be a factor.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well he went on to tool Grievous, who early in the clone wars, bested both Ventress and Durge. Seeing how Ventress bested Fisto early in the clone wars, I'd say that is pretty much evident that Fisto improved considerably.
Fisto's fight with Grievous was very early in the CW.
There's no way he could have improved as much as your claiming in the space of a few months. There's an inconsistency there between the the Eu material and the CW show.
That inconsistency doesn't mean Fisto must have grown 3 times more powerful in a few months.
Considering Eeth Koth has also defeated Grievous and Adi Gallia has also matched him, the more logical explanation would be it was just a low showing for Ventress.
And btw the Grievous Ventress and Kenobi tooled would have had much more training by Count Dooku than at the time he fought Fisto.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Every encounter Kenobi has had with Grievous in TCW was clearly a struggle for him.
He tooled Grievous quickly with the Force in Arc Troopers and as such defeated him in a much shorter time than Fisto did. (Fisto never actually did finish defeating Grievous).
So if nothing else it shows early in the CW Kenobi is already more powerful in the Force than Fisto and is clearly the superior warrior(all out) considering how quickly he defeated Grievous in Arc Troopers. Fisto fought Grievous for much longer and failed to defeat him in that time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how it's 'had to resort to a Force Push' instead of 'managed to tag the guy who can dodge Force Pushes with a Force Push.'As if Grievous was reaming him so much that the Force was his only option, as opposed to Fisto simply using it to kick his ass. And then went on to clearly push Grievous 8ack in str8 sa8ers.
Yeah, I don't quite understand it myself. Obi-Wan used the Force to relieve Grievous of the remainder of his weapons, but we make an exception? Quit moving the goalpost, folks, and accept the inevitable death of the idea that Obi-Wan is out of Kit's league.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Quit moving the goalpost, folks, and accept the inevitable death of the idea that Obi-Wan is out of Kit's league.
Ooohh I'd be careful of using the word "inevitable" especially when we're gna see Kenobi defeat Maul and Opress in a couple of days.
This debate will be finished then.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I don't quite understand it myself. Obi-Wan used the Force to relieve Grievous of the remainder of his weapons, but we make an exception? Quit moving the goalpost, folks, and accept the inevitable death of the idea that Obi-Wan is out of Kit's league.
Did I ever make an exception for Kenobi? Certainly not. And I've never stated Obi-Wan is out of Fisto's league.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how it's 'had to resort to a Force Push' instead of 'managed to tag the guy who can dodge Force Pushes with a Force Push.'As if Grievous was reaming him so much that the Force was his only option, as opposed to Fisto simply using it to kick his ass. And then went on to clearly push Grievous 8ack in str8 sa8ers.
Yep but when Kenobi Force pushed him the fight was over. (And I'm not just talking about ROTS. Happened in Arc Troopers as well).
I think that's kind of clear whose more powerful.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ooohh I'd be careful of using the word "inevitable" especially when we're gna see Kenobi defeat Maul and Opress in a couple of days.This debate will be finished then.
Your incessant reference to that has been a constant source of amusement for me, especially since you jumped SIDIOUS66's ass multiple times about referencing Palpatine's manhandling of Maul & Savage. 😂