During The Cestus Deception novel, earlier in the timeline, Kenobi and Fisto perfomred similarily against Ventress (hell, Kenobi even notes that Fisto is the better swordsman and it is also noted that he has to hold back quite a bit in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field when sparring with him), later on against Grievous, their performances were also similar in that they both defeated GG. It follows that there levels of progresion have followed a similar curve as well.
Two common opponents and two similar outcomes at various points in time.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, but if you read the ROTS novel, Yoda's departure was also a move by the Jedi to lure Sidious out in the open by having their leader leave the planet while having enough powerful Masters (I believe Mace and Agen Kolar are mentioned specifically) to confront Sidious should he make his move.
And yet Kenobi was the one the Council unanimously agreed would be the best available Master to destroy Grievous once and for all, not Agen Kolar and not Kit Fisto. Despite Fisto also having had previous experience against Grievous.
And talking of the Council's opinion of who the great sword masters who could possibly challenge Sidious were, it was Mace's own opinion that Kenobi rivals Mace himself as a sword master.
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiTwo common opponents and two similar outcomes at various points in time.
At various points in time is the key point here.
If we compare their peak performances over time then that tells a different story all together.
And again I find it highly unlikely that someone who has been a Master for at least 10 years is going to dramatically increase his skill level over a few months to a year (from the time he fought Ventress to the time he faced Grievous).
Heck I doubt he'd even improve much over 3 years.
Grasping for straws again DP? Man just accept the fact that nothing points to Kenobi being in a diiferent league when compared to Fisto.
BTW - Windu's skill increased dramatically from Shatterpoint to RotS FYI.
Being titled a Jedi Master in no way suggests that one has peaked in any combat sense. Man, what a stretch DP.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Grasping for straws again DP?
I personally find the "Fisto also beat Grievous therefore he equals Kenobi" theory as grasping for straws. I'm not even a huge Obi-Wan fan so it doesn't matter to me one bit.
It's just honestly what I think especially after finding out he defeats Maul and Opress together. And I couldn't care less about the "exact context" there, because there's nothing anywhere suggesting Fisto is in any sort of league to even initiate such a challenge.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Man just accept the fact that nothing points to Kenobi being in a diiferent league when compared to Fisto.
Defeating Ventress, Opress, Sith Anakin is "Nothing??"
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
BTW - Windu's skill increased dramatically from Shatterpoint to RotS FYI.
Actually he increased during the events of Shatterpoint when stopped fearing the Dark.
I never said it's impossible. But more proof would be required of significant improvement after having that much experience.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Being titled a Jedi Master in no way suggests that one has peaked in any combat sense. Man, what a stretch DP.
And it's not a stretch to say someone who has been a Knight for 20 years suddenly radically improved over a few months just because Obi-Wan did??
I'd say that's the real stretch in an attempt to try and make out that Fisto and Obi-Wan remained equals after the events of Cestus Deception.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't Grievous weakened from Windu crushing his chest when he fought Obi-Wan?
Nah. He was totally screwed up in "Lair of Grievous" but his parts were replaced/repaired pretty quickly.
And Kenobi's fight was a good few days (at least) after Grievous's injury to Mace.
Jeez everyone's trying real hard to lowball Kenobi's complete stomp over Grievous.
I thought that was why he was coughing a lot (even though its bullshit that a cyborg without an actual mouth can cough). Not trying to lowball, I just thought he was still coughing at the time of that fight (like when he was talking to Sidious?).
Besides which, do you have prove that he had replacement parts on Utapau?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought that was why he was coughing a lot (even though its bullshit that a cyborg without an actual mouth can cough). Not trying to lowball, I just thought he was still coughing at the time of that fight (like when he was talking to Sidious?).
That's gone out of the window since he's been shown coughing randomly in the series.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which, do you have prove that he had replacement parts on Utapau?
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I refuse to answer that.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It follows that there levels of progresion have followed a similar curve as well.
No, there is absolutely no reason to believe this at all. Jedi progress at different rates.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he probably doesn't considering it isn't a Seperatist planet. :0)
Must have them on the Invisible Hand as he clearly doesn't have a crushed chest at the time.
Also if anyone could answer this:
Originally posted by ares834
Also I'm curious where the notion that Obi-Wan's connection with the force was stronger than usual in the Grevious duel comes from. A direct quote would be nice.
All I can find is this:
"Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him towards Grievous:"
But I don't see how this or anything else in the description of the fight points to some unique state he only achieved in that time.
It's certainly not like the "Pristine Clarity" which Zonakin achieved to a level clearly above his norm.
Like I said people are trying really hard to low ball ROTS Kenobi's total stomp of Grievous, as that was clearly a superior performance to Fisto's own beating of Grievous. And Fisto's beating of Grievous is really all this whole "Fisto is Kenobi's equal" thing is resting on.
[QUOTE]ares834
Also I'm curious where the notion that Obi-Wan's connection with the force was stronger than usual in the Grevious duel comes from. A direct quote would be nice.
Nephthys[/QUOTE]
I think Tempest may be confusing the Grievous fight with a point where Obi-Wan is on the Invisible Hand, after he captures them.
Yeah. One of two similar quotes can be found during the final fight with Grievous and his MagnaGuards, but nothing as decisive as I [thought I] remembered, though it does readily explain how Obi-Wan beat Grievous so relatively easily in ROTS compared to the previous times they fought.
DARTH POWER
And yet Kenobi was the one the Council unanimously agreed would be the best available Master to destroy Grievous once and for all,
Because of his cunning and tenacity (Mace's words), not because he's a superior swordsman.
DARTH POWER
not Agen Kolar and not Kit Fisto.
You're not following:
You assert Obi-Wan is out of Kit's league. I assert that while Obi-Wan may be superior, the measurement isn't in leagues. I, or rather Matt Stover, is telling you that the Jedi Council concocted a plan to lure Sidious into complacency by making the order appear weak and underpowered. The original plan was for Yoda and Mace to leave Coruscant, but it was vetoed on the grounds that it was "too risky" for the order's strongest Masters to leave and "too convenient." When Yoda is said to go, Obi-Wan is the next to be sent to capture Grievous, on the grounds that he's their must "cunning and tenacious" Master. If Obi-Wan is out of Kit's league and we know that Kit alone is capable of beating Grievous, why send Obi-Wan when he could be around to placate Anakin and be there for support in case Sidious made his move? The reason the book provides is because the Council believed the remaining Masters were skilled enough to take care of it.
Tl;dr version: it doesn't make sense for the Jedi Council to send all their best and brightest away to handle miniscule threats and leave Mace in the company of noobs to handle the ultimate one. The book clearly and concisely rejects this interpretation.
DARTH POWER
Despite Fisto also having had previous experience against Grievous.
Yes, because fighting Grievous a grand total of one time/s puts one on even footing with Obi-Wan's experience on all matters Grievous.
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DARTH POWER
And talking of the Council's opinion of who the great sword masters who could possibly challenge Sidious were, it was Mace's own opinion that Kenobi rivals Mace himself as a sword master.
An obvious pep-talk is obvious.
In summary: there's no proof that Obi-Wan is out of Kit's "league" and there is evidence to the contrary. Despite what some may think, Grievous doesn't lose to just anyone, and only members of the High Council and Ventress have held their own against him in combat unaided. My contention is that, unless explicitly designated (Yoda & Mace), no one on the High Council "outclasses" another member. Obi-Wan certainly has more feats to his name and may very well be Kit's superior, but by leagues? Hardly.
Until something new is offered from either side, I'm bowing out of this one. JT and SIDIOUS can take over from here.
Originally posted by ares834
And yet, we have other feats that Kenobi has preformed. Many of which are beyond Fisto like besting Ventress.
Ventress has bested Kenobi just as much as Kenobi bested her. In fact, there were times when she fought off both Obi Wan and Anakin at the same time. It's not as if Kenobi regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous in ROTS. Ventress and Kenobi are shown to be equals.
Originally posted by ares834
Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel". However, he certainly doesn't seem to be doing any better than Fisto or Kenobi
Perhaps it was just a lower showing for Mace. There are canon sources that say Mace is second only to Yoda, which would automatically put him above the likes of Fisto and Kenobi. Obi Wan does not have a similar quote, nor can there be an argument made for Kenobi being able to perform better against Grievous than he did in ROTS when we consider his previous duels against him in TWC. Every time Obi Wan has fought Grievous in TCW, it was clearly a struggle. The only time Obi Wan tooled Grievous was in ROTS, and he still did not tool him any more than Fisto tooled him, despite the fact that he had more experience with Greivous than Fisto did. The best Obi Wan did against Grievous was only equal to Fisto's own performance against him.
So I don't get why we are suppose to assume that Kenobi can do much better against Sidious than Fisto did when his very best performance against Grievous wasn't any better than Fisto's performance. The speed difference between Sidious and most other jedi is just too great.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress has bested Kenobi just as much as Kenobi bested her. In fact, there were times when she fought off both Obi Wan and Anakin at the same time. It's not as if Kenobi regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous in ROTS. Ventress and Kenobi are shown to be equals.
When has Ventress ever bested Kenobi in a duel?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Perhaps it was just a lower showing for Mace. There are canon sources that say Mace is second only to Yoda, which would automatically put him above the likes of Fisto and Kenobi. Obi Wan does not have a similar quote, nor can there be an argument made for Kenobi being able to perform better against Grievous than he did in ROTS when we consider his previous duels against him in TWC. Every time Obi Wan has fought Grievous in TCW, it was clearly a struggle. The only time Obi Wan tooled Grievous was in ROTS, and he still did not tool him any more than Fisto tooled him, despite the fact that he had more experience with Greivous than Fisto did. The best Obi Wan did against Grievous was only equal to Fisto's own performance against him.
Yes, he struggles with Grievous once near the beginning of the war... But as RotS shows, by the end Kenobi is far beyond him. Also, while Kenobi has experience with Grievous, so to does Grievous have experience with Kenobi.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So I don't get why we are suppose to assume that Kenobi can do much better against Sidious than Fisto did when his very best performance against Grievous wasn't any better than Fisto's performance. The speed difference between Sidious and most other jedi is just too great.
I do. I look at all of Obi-Wan's feats such as besting Ventress and holding his own against Vader. Then there is the fact that Obi-Wan is a defensive prodigy. Basically what I'm saying is besides ignoring Kenobi's other feats, I don't see how Sidious is going to be able to blitz or easily dismiss Kenobi in a strictly saber duel.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's not as if Kenobi regularly tools Ventress as easily as he did Grievous in ROTS. Ventress and Kenobi are shown to be equals.
In the past, yes.
But now it looks as though they are going to make Kenobi and Maul equals. And Maul's almost certainly above Ventress.
And btw even if Kenobi is Ventress's equal, that still makes him Fisto's superior.
Originally posted by The_TempestMy contention is that, unless explicitly designated (Yoda & Mace), no one on the High Council "outclasses" another member.
Possibly but I'm not sure any evidence points to this.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Obi-Wan certainly has more feats to his name and may very well be Kit's superior, but by leagues? Hardly.
I'm not sure I said he's "leagues" ahead. But all the evidence shows he certainly is Fisto's superior.
Also I'm not going by more feats. We're going by superior feats. Beating Ventress, Sith Anakin, challenging Maul.. These are all superior feats to anything we've seen from Fisto.
There's no reason anywhere to suggest Fisto's improved to the level where he can match or best Ventress now like Obi-Wan can.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Until something new is offered from either side, I'm bowing out of this one. JT and SIDIOUS can take over from here.
The Fisto side all comes down to the idea that he also bested Grievous which somehow makes him Kenobi's equal. Oh and the assumption that he improved just as much as Kenobi did during the CW.
The Kenobi side is going by overall superior feats, showings and quotes.
Originally posted by ares834
Also, while Kenobi has experience with Grievous, so to does Grievous have experience with Kenobi.
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Such obvious logic.
Grievous also was better trained by ROTS as you've rightly pointed out.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66nor can there be an argument made for Kenobi being able to perform better against Grievous than he did in ROTS
Why would anyone need to make this argument? He completely stomped him in Sabers and in the Force in ROTS.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
when we consider his previous duels against him in TWC. Every time Obi Wan has fought Grievous in TCW, it was clearly a struggle.
You mean when he fought off Grievous plus a Magnaguard, faced all 4 of his Sabers in an enclosed environment and still soundly beat him and had him running (Grievous Intrigue)???
Or do you mean when Grievous surprised him by smacking him with an extra free arm he had, and yet Kenobi still completely owned him with the Force (Arc Troopers)???
The context of those fights were very different to Fisto's fight, and yet Grievous was still soundly defeated both times running for his life.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only time Obi Wan tooled Grievous was in ROTS, and he still did not tool him any more than Fisto tooled him, despite the fact that he had more experience with Greivous than Fisto did. The best Obi Wan did against Grievous was only equal to Fisto's own performance against him.
Urm how do you figure? Let's compare:
Fisto cut off one arm, Kenobi cut off 2.
Fisto force pushed Grievous to the floor, a push which Grievous was able to take, get back up and carry on fighting. Whilst Kenobi's Force push sent him flying like what 20-30 feet? Disarmed him of all his remaining lightsabers, and had him running for his life.
So there's really nothing here to put Fisto in Kenobi's league as a combatant (after Cestus Deception) at all. And then I get accused of grasping to straws? Geez. This whole "Fisto beat Grievous therefore he equals Obi-Wan" is all just one big Grasp!
Saying Obi-Wan was in a special state with the Force was one big imaginary grasp. (Yes I'll let Tempest off since he remembered it falsely, but I can't let off the people who backed him up on that one).
And now the grasping continues with s*** like "Kenobi and Fisto are both on the council, and since neither of them are Mace or Yoda they're automatically in the same league.."
I mean seriously WTF?? Give up.. Kenobi > Fisto.. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.
Originally posted by ares834
When has Ventress ever bested Kenobi in a duel?
Not including Cestus Deception? All of their duels in TCW (or any canon source as far as I remember) were either very close fights, or with Ventress fighting off both Obi Wan and Anakin at the same time. I don't remember Obi Wan ever tooling her as easily as he did Grievous.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, he struggles with Grievous once near the beginning of the war... But as RotS shows, by the end Kenobi is far beyond him. Also, while Kenobi has experience with Grievous, so to does Grievous have experience with Kenobi.
Grievous was built and trained specifically to fight jedi though. However, it's not very often that a jedi fights a cyborg that can utilize four sabers at once with tremendous speed and strength and coordination (being able to move them in angles that a regular human/humanoid can not), unless you're Obi Wan that is.
Originally posted by ares834
I do. I look at all of Obi-Wan's feats such as besting Ventress and holding his own against Vader. Then there is the fact that Obi-Wan is a defensive prodigy. Basically what I'm saying is besides ignoring Kenobi's other feats, I don't see how Sidious is going to be able to blitz or easily dismiss Kenobi in a strictly saber duel.
Unless we are to assume that him being able to last against Vader > him tooling Grievous, I don't see how having that as an extra feat puts him above Fisto. And I don't assume that, seeing how there are a number of circumstantial factors to be consider in his duel with Vader, and seeing how he could not have done any better than he did against Grievous.
The point I'm trying to make is that if Kenobi is so far ahead of Fisto, then it seems like he would have done significantly better than Fisto did against Grievous, considering his advantage of more experience with Grievous. In fact, I'd still argue that Fisto actually did a little better than Kenobi did.