DP is so caught up in trying to win a debate that he forgot what the debate was about and is now grasping for straws. Obi Wan couldn't tickle Sidious with the force, so I don't see how a concentrated force push on Grievous is evidents that he could provide more a challenge against Sidious in sabers than Fisto did.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP is so caught up in trying to win a debate
No I leave that childish behavior to people like Tempest shouting out "I win, you Lose!!!"
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
that he forgot what the debate was about and is now grasping for straws.
Really? I'd say the people like yourself who have decided that Fisto improved through the CW as much as Obi-Wan just to aid your argument are the ones who are really grasping for straws here.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi Wan couldn't tickle Sidious with the force, so I don't see how a concentrated force push on Grievous is evidents that he could provide more a challenge against Sidious in sabers than Fisto did.
And you as usual are completely missing the point. I've already pointed out Kenobi by ROTS is way ahead of Fisto in Sabers with his absolute ease in trouncing Grievous in Sabers, with Dooku himself admitting Kenobi's defense is ridiculously fast even for him, and with his defeat of Sith Anakin.
Now on top of all that I ALSO have proof that even early in the CW Kenobi was already more powerful in using the Force than Kit Fisto and was already the superior combatant in an all out fight.
Originally posted by NephthysWhich puts Keno8i 'leagues' above him?
Nah just "1" League.
Originally posted by Nephthys
8ecause it seemed that he had apparently proven that Fisto was Keno8i's equal. I'm still not convinced that he hasn't. We know that Keno8i improves over the CW, 8ut it is an assumption that he improved enough to eclipse Fisto.
That was just after AOTC. Yes AOTC Kenobi and Fisto were close in Sabers. Fisto may have even be better.
And it's not assumptions when one has the feats and the other doesn't.
As far as we know ROTS Fisto is not even a match for Ventress. So there's absolutely no need to believe/think he could challenge the likes of Maul on the level Obi-Wan does.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it's not assumptions when one has the feats and the other doesn't.
Yes, it's an assumption. Do you know what the definition of assumption is?
assumption
Definition
as·sump·tion[ ə súmpshən ]as·sump·tions Plural
NOUN
1. something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof
"Make no assumptions before looking at the evidence."
2. belief without proof: the belief that something is true without having any proof
3. act of undertaking something: the act of taking something upon yourself
"With the assumption of power comes responsibility."
4. acceptance of responsibility for something: the act of taking over responsibility for something
5. inclination to high expectations: the tendency to expect too much
6. logic unproved starting point: something taken as a starting point of a logical proof rather than given as a premise
You lack proof.
No, Kenobi has more feats. People seem to think that tooling Grievous is not that great of a feat, but actually it is when we consider how much Kenobi struggles against him in TCW (at least four different fights, I believe), and how he only tools Grievous in ROTS after having so much experience with him. In fact, in TCW, the only one who comfortably tooled Grievous without struggle was Fisto and maybe Ventress, if I recall correctly. Aside from his low showing against the gungans, Grievous is still portrayed as a very formidable opponent.
I still don't see how barely besting Ventress on a couple of occasions, and then getting pwned by her on another, is absolute proof that Kenobi is above Fisto. It only proves that he is about Ventress's equal in combat. Most of Kenobi's other "superior" victories all revolve around circumstantial factors. He doesn't have better feats than Fisto (nothing that proves he is better anyway), he only has more feats.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Joking aside, in order for defeating Grievous to be considered a worthwhile feat, Grievous would have to be portrayed as an actual formidable fighter. He isn't one, if TCW is any indication.
Have you seen any episode other than "Shadow Warrior"? He's held his own against Obi-Wan and Ventress and has put both on their asses.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, Kenobi has more feats.
Beating Sith Anakin and Ventress is not just more feats. It is clearly superior feats. Especially since we KNOW Fisto was unable to match Ventress the one time they fought. And there's very little evidence of Fisto improving since, and much more evidence of Ventress, Kenobi and Grievous all substantially improving.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
People seem to think that tooling Grievous is not that great of a feat, but actually it is when we consider how much Kenobi struggles against him in TCW (at least four different fights, I believe),
Defeating him solely in Sabers seems to take effort. I think in CW only Ventress has done that.
But for all his struggles against Grievous, when facing him one on one Kenobi still defeated him much quicker than Fisto did in "Arc Troopers."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and how he only tools Grievous in ROTS after having so much experience with him.
He actually tools a Grievous with almost 3 years more training under Count Dooku than he had at the time Fisto fought him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In fact, in TCW, the only one who comfortably tooled Grievous without struggle was Fisto and maybe Ventress, if I recall correctly.
You should watch "Grievous Intrigue" again. Koth actually fights off Grievous with a wounded arm, and while being intimidated by like 5/6 Mgnaguards surrounding him. And yet he still defeats Grievous quciker than Fisto could!
Then Adi Gallia seemed to be doing well in their short fight, actually kicking GG back.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I still don't see how barely besting Ventress on a couple of occasions, and then getting pwned by her on another, is absolute proof that Kenobi is above Fisto.
Because Ventress is above Fisto.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66your ridiculous if you think fisto is in the same league as kenobi .
No, Kenobi has more feats. People seem to think that tooling Grievous is not that great of a feat, but actually it is when we consider how much Kenobi struggles against him in TCW (at least four different fights, I believe), and how he only tools Grievous in ROTS after having so much experience with him. In fact, in TCW, the only one who comfortably tooled Grievous without struggle was Fisto and maybe Ventress, if I recall correctly. Aside from his low showing against the gungans, Grievous is still portrayed as a very formidable opponent.I still don't see how barely besting Ventress on a couple of occasions, and then getting pwned by her on another, is absolute proof that Kenobi is above Fisto. It only proves that he is about Ventress's equal in combat. Most of Kenobi's other "superior" victories all revolve around circumstantial factors. He doesn't have better feats than Fisto (nothing that proves he is better anyway), he only has more feats.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet he still defeats Grievous quciker than Fisto could!
You should watch it too DP... Koth never defeats Grievous. Would he have? We don't know. But what we do know is that Fisto disarmed GG of one lightsaber and proceeded to beat him down. The fact that he disarmed him isn't evidence against his prowess, but for it instead.
Now with everything being said throughout this debate, after watching 'Revival', it's clear that Kenobi has become one hell of a badass swordsman. Now that doesn't necessarily equate to him being leagues or even 1 league ahead of Fisto (we just don't know where Fisto is right now with regard to his skill/power level). It does however lead me to give Kenobi far more credit than what I did previously. He has grown into an exceptionally powerful warrior.
http://www.animeflavor.com/index.php?q=node/41984
Great episode to start season 5.