Originally posted by ares834
If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.
Interestingly if you watch the scenes from the trailer in slow motion it becomes clear Opress is hardly in the fight.
Sidious seems to be focusing on Maul. He could be testing how powerful Maul is now.
Originally posted by mnat801
can we keep the topic to the thread please? I said dooku and obi wan vs sids, not fisto vs obi.
Mnat801 discussing Fisto vs Obi-Wan is very important to this thread, because IF Obi-Wan is in the same league as Fisto, then he will be a complete non-factor here even in a Sabers Only fight.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
despite the fact that he has done it to three swordsmasters (at least one of whom is on Kenobi's level of speed)?
None of them have the speed feats that Kenobi has. You keep making things up to suit your argument S66.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Give me evidents that Obi Wan is fast enough to provide even some what of a challenge to someone who can blitz three swordsmasters in seconds, and I will accept that.
He only has to be faster than the fastest of those 3 and your A>B>C argument here automatically fails.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, if Kenobi is so far ahead of Kit in speed, then why was he floored by Grievous on a couple of occasions?
He hit him by surprise with a third arm that was in hiding. The other time he defeated all 4 of his arms anyway. I've already addressed all those points of yours in detail but you've ignored them and carried on repeating the same argument.
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league then why did he have to hide from a 4 Saber wielding Grievous and attempt to strike him from behind?
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?
Has Fisto shown anything to show he can defend himself against the likes of Sith Anakin? Nope.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
A better reason would be that the general is clearly no longer meant to be the unstoppable war machine the ROTS novel suggested he was.
Jedi's usually resort to Force TK to defeat Grievous though. It's actually still very rare for a Jedi to defeat him in pure Sabers. Especially when he's wielding 4.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIf Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?
Fisto matched Ventrss just as well as, if not better than Kenobi, in the Cestus Deception novel, even though they both lost to her. Kenobi also noted in the same novel that Fisto was the superior swordsman by a considerable margin.
And BTW - the plural form of Jedi is still Jedi, not Jedis or "Jedi's."
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, Fisto matched Ventress better than Kenobi. Despite the fact that Fisto lost against her and Kenobi forced her to flee...Anyway, as of the CW Kenobi regularly defeats Ventress and, at times, treats her like a red headed stepchild.
Correction; You mean he forced her to flee AFTER Fisto saved his butt right as Ventress was about to kill him.
Had Fisto not been there, Kenobi would have been killed. / of story.
Fisto didn't need Kenobi's assistance to avoid death.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
None of them have the speed feats that Kenobi has. You keep making things up to suit your argument S66.
What speed feats does Kenobi have that puts him so far ahead of Fisto? According to Lucien, Grievous's speed was actually overloading Kenobi's defenses, which would put Grievous ahead of Kenobi in terms of speed. I'll take Lucien's word for it, because he has a copy of the ROTS novel downloaded (I think). Sidious's speed >>>> Grievous speed, by miles.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He hit him by surprise with a third arm that was in hiding. The other time he defeated all 4 of his arms anyway. I've already addressed all those points of yours in detail but you've ignored them and carried on repeating the same argument.
Obi Wan sure gets hit by surprise quite a bit. Regardless, Grievous shouldn't be able to take Kenobi by surprise unless he has comparable speed to Obi Wan, and Obi Wan is not fast enough to react to the surprise attacks.
In ROTS, Obi Wan was fighting Grievous defensively, waiting for opportunity to disarm Grievous of his lightsabers one at a time - which he only disarmed Grievous of two. Fisto fought Grievous differently than Kenobi did; Kit was actually forcing Grievous on the defensive, possibly through superior speed or superior strength. Fisto even managed to land a body shot on Grievous, although Grievous was protected by his armor. And again, Fisto did not have the experience against someone like Grievous as ROTS Kenobi did.
I haven't been replying to your arguments, because I'm waiting to see if someone else can provide a better argument as to why Kenobi would be a challenge to Sidious in sabers. So far you have failed to do so. The only huge difference between Fisto and Kenobi that has been proven, is their style of fighting. But I still don't see how that is going to help Obi Wan against Sidious, when Sidious can leap across a room and blitz two master before they could react. The speed difference between Sidious and Kenobi is just too great for Kenobi's style to even be a factor.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league then why did he have to hide from a 4 Saber wielding Grievous and attempt to strike him from behind?
And why did ROTS Kenobi have to use a force push against a two saber wielding Grievous? Because, you know, that's basically how their lightsaber duel ended. And before you say "well Fisto used a force push too," remember, I'm not the one wanting to use your silly logic, I'm only using it against you
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?
Do you mind explaining to me how Fisto and Ventress's fight played out?
I do know that Ventress has also defeated Kenobi on occasions, and has even fought off both him and Anakin at the same time.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Has Fisto shown anything to show he can defend himself against the likes of Sith Anakin? Nope.
OMG, Fisto never had to fight someone like Anakin. But no, Fisto probably would not last as long against Anakin as Kenobi did, because he does not know Anakin inside and out the way Obi Wan does, and he is not as much of a defensive fighter as Obi Wan is. This is the exactly why you should stop lecturing on ABC logic.
It is said in the RotS novel that Grievous is faster than any human could hope to be.
Now whether that counts as being from the narration is a matter of debate, but the concept is debatable.
Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, as of the CW Kenobi regularly defeats Ventress and, at times, treats her like a red headed stepchild.
You mean like when she pwned him in 10 seconds in the Nightsisters arc?
Correct, it's actually more like 9.
Fight starts @ 0.16 and ends for him @ 0.25.
Good old Glass-Jaw Kenobi.
Yeah, I watched it. But he got back up and disarmed her at the end. If you mean by "pwn" she landed the first strike, definitely, but she also did the same to Anakin despite the fact that he overpowered her previously in the season, one-on-one. Hell, Grievous managed to land the first hit on her during their duel in "Massacre." I'm not sure it's reasonable to insinuate that she could do so consistently. As I said, it's the nature of the show that victory isn't a matter of comparing combat stats and hitpoints.
No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.
Our points are the same. I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What speed feats does Kenobi have that puts him so far ahead of Fisto?
Let's see from Dooku's perspective:
"-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to find the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-
Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade"
"he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago"
"and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker"
Plus there's defending against 20 strikes per second. Now either provide proof of Fisto's speed feats that compare, or stop this desperate argument with absolutely nothing to back it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi Wan sure gets hit by surprise quite a bit. Regardless, Grievous shouldn't be able to take Kenobi by surprise unless he has comparable speed to Obi Wan, and Obi Wan is not fast enough to react to the surprise attacks.
Stop talking crap. A surprise hit is a surprise hit. That's it.
Otherwise I guess Yoda is much slower than Sidious because Sidious surprise hit him with Lightning right.
Oh and Padawan Obi-Wan must have been 20 times faster than TPM Maul to hit him from that position!
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In ROTS, Obi Wan was fighting Grievous defensively, waiting for opportunity to disarm Grievous of his lightsabers one at a time - which he only disarmed Grievous of two.
Lol they were hardest 2 because he had to get past 20 strikes per second to cut them. The next 2 only would have been easier.
Talk about some serious lowballing!
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto fought Grievous differently than Kenobi did; Kit was actually forcing Grievous on the defensive, possibly through superior speed or superior strength. Fisto even managed to land a body shot on Grievous, although Grievous was protected by his armor. And again, Fisto did not have the experience against someone like Grievous as ROTS Kenobi did.
The fact that the fight was moving back and forth means nothing. It's the result that counts. We know Obi-Wan by his style defends and gives ground.
I mean jeez even Dooku gives ground against Grievous, so I guess Fisto has possibly diplayed superior strength and speed to Dooku now! LOL!
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
OMG, Fisto never had to fight someone like Anakin. But no, Fisto probably would not last as long against Anakin as Kenobi did, because he does not know Anakin inside and out the way Obi Wan does, and he is not as much of a defensive fighter as Obi Wan is. This is the exactly why you should stop lecturing on ABC logic.
If you think Fisto would even stand a chance against Sith Anakin then your beyond hope.
And what's this Fisto never fought Anakin bull crap?? So give me a feat of his that compares then! Or what we just gna pretend he could have.
Yeah great Plo Koon beats Sith Anakin because they never fought.
Maul beats Yoda because they never fought either.
S66 I've provided more than enough feats to the table and you've brought nothing. I've mentioned all the powerhouse Kenobi has defeated, brought up a whole list of how clearly his speed is described as being astonishingly fast to Dooku!
But you've brought nothing. All your going on about is the Fisto/Grievous fight.
By that argument I guess Fisto is in the same league as Mace because Grievous gave him moderate trouble as well in a sword fight! And in the same league as Dooku who was also hard pressed to fight of all of Grievous swords at times!
Up your game now, give me feats that compare or accept Fisto being in Kenobi's league was a stupid stance to take.
Then we can discuss Sidious.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.
But again, Ventress does not consistently demonstrate this sort of skill; her fights with Obi-Wan tend to be extremely close.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Our points are the same.
Only if you're not suggesting this is a recurring theme.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.
I honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.Our points are the same. I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.
That was a rage enhanced Ventress.
Going from the CW movie and all other showings of both characters in CW, Obi-Wan is clearly in her league or above.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But again, Ventress does not consistently demonstrate this sort of skill; her fights with Obi-Wan tend to be extremely close.
I didn't claim that they weren't.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if you're not suggesting this is a recurring theme.
I'm not even sure how you'd think I was in the first place.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.
I don't watch the show, so I couldn't say.