Originally posted by The_TempestI honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.
CW movie where he did embarass her. And the season1 episode where there was a clone traitor.
She again held them both off(Obi-Wan and Anakin), but was just delaying the inevitable in that one.
Suggesting that Obi-Wan is beyond Kit by any substantial degree is baseless. Kit's performance here against Grievous rivals any of Obi-Wan's showings against him; it's even more impressive given the general's home field advantage and the fact that this is [presumably] the first time Kit and Grievous fought.
Having more feats =/= having better ones. Their respective fights against Grievous are the best means by which to compare them.
Fisto fought him earlier that same episode, had loads of help, yet Grievous escaped (with half his body anyway).
And look at the fight carefully, he never had to fight off all 4 of his swords,(kept hiding in the mist at that point) and never actually defeated him in the sword fight, so I don't see how that's just as good or better than ROTS Kenobi's trouncing of him.
Oh and if we ignore all other feats, then we can start comparing Fisto to Mace, since Grievous also gave Mace trouble in Sabers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fisto fought him earlier that same episode, had loads of help, yet Grievous escaped (with half his body anyway).
Is Asajj a better fighter than Anakin because she, unarmed, escaped him and a squad of clones in "ARC Troopers"? Or is she a better fighter than Dooku when she, unarmed, escaped him in "Witches of the Mist"?
The two situations you seek to compare are entirely different. The Jedi were trapped in a corridor with Grievous, an environment that is clearly to his advantage: where he can better apply his prodigious strength and four lightsabers. The Jedi spent more time simply keeping his blades at bay so the clones could restrain him; the only reason Grievous escaped is because he physically overpowered the clones.
When the two fought one-on-one in the episode's climax, Grievous was disarmed, constantly giving ground, and was put on his ass via the Force. Again, circumstances can alter the nature of a fight, but unless something rises to contradict it, it's pretty clear that Kit was the superior fighter on even ground.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And look at the fight carefully, he never had to fight off all 4 of his swords,(kept hiding in the mist at that point) and never actually defeated him in the sword fight, so I don't see how that's just as good or better than ROTS Kenobi's trouncing of him.
I am watching the duel; Grievous couldn't make use of all his blades because Kit had relieved him of one. I'm not sure how the significance of that has not registered with you.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and if we ignore all other feats, then we can start comparing Fisto to Mace, since Grievous also gave Mace trouble in Sabers.
What?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Is Asajj a better fighter than Anakin because she, unarmed, escaped him and a squad of clones in "ARC Troopers"? Or is she a better fighter than Dooku when she, unarmed, escaped him in "Witches of the Mist"?The two situations you seek to compare are entirely different. The Jedi were trapped in a corridor with Grievous, an environment that is clearly to his advantage: where he can better apply his prodigious strength and four lightsabers. The Jedi spent more time simply keeping his blades at bay so the clones could restrain him; the only reason Grievous escaped is because he physically overpowered the clones.
Just pointing out he had already fought him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
When the two fought one-on-one in the episode's climax, Grievous was disarmed, constantly giving ground, and was put on his ass via the Force. Again, circumstances can alter the nature of a fight, but unless something rises to contradict it, it's pretty clear that Kit was the superior fighter on even ground.
I'm still not seeing how this puts Fisto in the same league as ROTS Kenobi who completely tooled Grievous in Sabers, and then sent him flying like 50 feet with the Force.
What more of a tooling could Kenobi have given him exactly?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I am watching the duel; Grievous couldn't make use of all his blades because Kit had relieved him of one. I'm not sure how the significance of that has not registered with you.
And how did he relieve him of that arm? It was bascially CIS on Grievous's part. He was talking away, gloating, and attacked Fisto with only the one arm.
So I don't see him anywhere putting up with the 20 strikes per second that Kenobi did.
And I know your not buying it, but I'm sorry against an opponent who can dangerously wield 3 or 4 Sabers himself, wielding a 2nd one effectively will help. And still he didn't win the pure Saber fight, but resorted to a force attack.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
What?
You heard me punk!
Ok here's a better example. If we're to compare Mace and Dooku by the one opponent they both faced - Sora Bulq, then I would have to assume Dooku was the superior swordsman to Mace. When in fact the reverse is likely true.
Or what about a foe that both Kenobi and Ashoka have fought. Cad Bane. Lol. Cad Bane was defeated by Ashoka, but then surprise electrocuted her in "Cargo of Doom". Whilst Cad Bane embarrased both Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos in that episode... Can't remember what it was called.
Anyway we going to put Obi-Wan and Ashoka in the same league just due to that! Lol. Could also argue Ashoke performed better against multiple mandalorians than Obi-Wan did. But you get the point.
Like I said Kenobi has far far superior feats overall and by ROTS Kenobi completely tooled all 4 of Grievous's swords in Sabers anyway, and displayed a far more powerful force attack on him than we've ever seen from Fisto.
So I'm failing to see how Kenobi could have done better to prove he's superior to Fisto.
Another speed feat for Kenobi in the ROTS novel. Again from Dooku's perspective:
Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.
Waiting for proof from S66 that Fisto is as fast.
DARTH POWER
Just pointing out he had already fought him.
But not one-on-one, on even terrain.
DARTH POWER
I'm still not seeing how this puts Fisto in the same league as ROTS Kenobi who completely tooled Grievous in Sabers, and then sent him flying like 50 feet with the Force.What more of a tooling could Kenobi have given him exactly?
I'm not sure how Obi-Wan did anything substantially better. Kit was tooling Grievous as well and Obi-Wan's Force push was clearly the product of exertion and effort, unlike the casual one employed by Kit.
DARTH POWER
And how did he relieve him of that arm?
By swinging his lightsaber?
DARTH POWER
It was bascially CIS on Grievous's part. He was talking away, gloating, and attacked Fisto with only the one arm.
Grievous didn't gloat during his confrontation with Obi-Wan?
DARTH POWER
So I don't see him anywhere putting up with the 20 strikes per second that Kenobi did.
I didn't see Obi-Wan put up with 20 strikes from Grievous, either. If we take the ROTS novel into account, Obi-Wan was dueling Grievous in a state of unity with the Force and enjoyed a tremendous advantage. We have no proof indicating Kit enjoyed such an intimate use of the Force, which further diminishes Obi-Wan's relative performance against the general.
DARTH POWER
And I know your not buying it, but I'm sorry against an opponent who can dangerously wield 3 or 4 Sabers himself, wielding a 2nd one effectively will help.
Tell that to Grievous and Asajj, who wield multiple lightsabers and routinely lose their duels against singular and multiple opponents.
Not to mention the fact, again, that Grievous had all four lightsabers primed and in use when Kit engaged him; the second lightsaber only came into play for Kit after Grievous disarmed him.
DARTH POWER
And still he didn't win the pure Saber fight, but resorted to a force attack.
😬
Have you watched Obi-Wan's duel with Grievous in ROTS lately? You should, you'll note a curious detail about how that duel ends, as well.
DARTH POWER
You heard me punk!Ok here's a better example. If we're to compare Mace and Dooku by the one opponent they both faced - Sora Bulq, then I would have to assume Dooku was the superior swordsman to Mace. When in fact the reverse is likely true.
That's a bad example, unless using Force lightning to end a fight makes you a better swordsman?
DARTH POWER
Or what about a foe that both Kenobi and Ashoka have fought. Cad Bane. Lol. Cad Bane was defeated by Ashoka, but then surprise electrocuted her in "Cargo of Doom". Whilst Cad Bane embarrased both Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos in that episode... Can't remember what it was called.
Actually, Bane was disarmed extremely quickly by Obi-Wan.
DARTH POWER
Anyway we going to put Obi-Wan and Ashoka in the same league just due to that! Lol.
Maybe if the examples you provided actually applied lol!
DARTH POWER
Like I said by ROTS Kenobi completely tooled all 4 of Grievous's swords in Sabers,
Did we watch a different movie?
DARTH POWER
and displayed a far more powerful force attack on him than we've ever seen from Fisto.
You mean the Force push he gave with visible exertion and effort?
DARTH POWER
So I'm failing to see how Kenobi could have done better to prove he's superior to Fisto.
By actually proving it?
Arrrgghh.. This is just becoming a repeat of my argument with S66.
Originally posted by The_TempestI'm not sure how Obi-Wan did anything substantially better. Kit was tooling Grievous as well
By cutting off 2 of his arms. Oh and by actually fighting off all 4 of his arms/swords, instead of hiding from them and then attempting to strike him from behind.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
By swinging his lightsaber?
Yes. And how many arms was Grievous attacking with when he did that. Hint: It was less than 2. When did Fisto fight off all 4 of GG's swords?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Grievous didn't gloat during his confrontation with Obi-Wan?
Did he stop swinging all 4 of his arms, while gloating and then just strike him with 1? Was that how Kenobi chopped off Greivous's first arm?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tell that to Grievous and Asajj, who wield multiple lightsabers and routinely lose their duels against singular and multiple opponents.
I didn't say it's a guaranteed win. Of course it's not, or Ashoka would be kicking ass with her saber + shoto.
But you know as well as I do that Ventress holds off Obi-Wan and Anakin together quite well considering she has serious trouble defeating either one of them in a one on one.
We both also know Grievous is far more deadly wielding 4 Sabers than he is wielding 1.
And next week I'm going to discuss the Obi-Wan vs Opress and Maul with you. Because I'm betting that 2nd Saber he's using will be essential in keeping him alive through that fight.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention the fact, again, that Grievous had all four lightsabers primed and in use when Kit engaged him; the second lightsaber only came into play for Kit after Grievous disarmed him.
Yeah but just point out the part where he actually fought off all 4 of his Sabers.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have you watched Obi-Wan's duel with Grievous in ROTS lately? You should, you'll note a curious detail about how that duel ends, as well.
Yeah after he already fought off all 4 of his arms, and cut off 2 of them. At that point it would be silly to think Grievous's last 2 Sabers would be a problem.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's a bad example, unless using Force lightning to end a fight makes you a better swordsman?
No he actually out dueled him as well. He disarmed him off his shoto, while fighting off Tholme. Mace never out dueled Bulq.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, Bane was disarmed extremely quickly by Obi-Wan.
Bane seemed to have him beat. He could have killed Kenobi if not for Quinlan Vos. Unless your talking about the second fight where Kenobi was in disguise, when Bane didn't realise he was up against a Jedi.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maybe if the examples you provided actually applied lol!
They do. They show how we can't just compare fights against 1 non-force user in different circumstances, when really we should be going by overall feats and showings.
FYI Ashoka also seemed to have Pre-Vizla beat quite quickly IIRC.
But again it doesn't matter. Because I really don't see how Kenobi could have done any better against GG in ROTS. He stomped him in Sabers and in the Force.
For us to then see Fisto beating Grievous in completely different circumstances(definitely no 20 strikes per second), and using that to say Fisto is in Kenobi's league is kind of absurd.
Eeth Koth also seemed to have Grievous beat. Does that also put him in Kenobi's league? If Ashoka eventually beats Grievous are we also going to put her in Kenobi's league?
And don't think it can't happen. Dave Filoni has said he believes any Jedi can beat GG once they get past the intimidation factor of his arms swinging so fast.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kit Fisto is decidedly beneath Kenobi. He comes damned near to admitting his own inferiority when he says.
"I wish Kenobi or Yoda were here."
Yes members of the council seem to think very highly of Obi-Wan's combat abilities.
They all agree to send him to fight off Grievous.
Kit as you have mentioned says he'd feel better confronting Sidious with Yoda, and if not Yoda then Kenobi.
And then of course there's Mace's humble opinion that Kenobi's sword skills rival his own.
I spent an exorbitant amount of time crafting a meticulous, exhaustive, line-by-line rebuttal but was denied twice by KMC (for some reason) logging me out (inactivity period?). The third time might indeed be the proverbial charm, but alas we shall never know.
The bottom line is that comparing Kit’s duel with Grievous in TCW with Obi-Wan’s duel with Grievous in ROTS is not one that concludes with a tremendous disparity between the two Jedi in question. In fact, Obi-Wan entered the fray with significant advantages that Kit lacked: one, the unparalleled personal experience on all matters Grievous and two, his state of unity with the Force that the ROTS novel describes as being present during his two confrontations with the general during the events of the film. So essentially, we have an Obi-Wan Kenobi who’s “one with the Force” and whose only real feat over Kit was cutting off two of Grievous’s lightsabers instead of one. You're too busy getting wrapped up in the number of lightsabers in play (moar sabers = moar winz!) and then contradicting yourself later on that very issue ("At that point it would be silly to think Grievous's last 2 Sabers would be a problem [for Obi-Wan's one saber]."😉.
Not impressed. There is literally nothing from a genuine comparison between the two duels that would conclude that Obi-Wan is out of Kit’s proverbial league, and that is simply a fact.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he was clearly holding back and underestimating her at that point: "You'll have to do better than that my darling."And then dodging all her strikes when he was disarmed just furthers his case and not hers.
So because he was engaging in banter he was going easy?
Yet when he got his lightsaber back they had quite a lengthy duel. In fact, soon after getting it back she still gets a kick in on him. If he were truly so much better than her he would have won swiftly after getting it back.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I spent an exorbitant amount of time crafting a meticulous, exhaustive, line-by-line rebuttal but was denied twice by KMC (for some reason) logging me out (inactivity period?). The third time might indeed be the proverbial charm, but alas we shall never know.
It's a sign Tempest! KMC is trying to tell you stop it, DP is right.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're too busy getting wrapped up in the number of lightsabers in play (moar sabers = moar winz!) and then contradicting yourself later on that very issue ("At that point it would be silly to think Grievous's last 2 Sabers would be a problem [for Obi-Wan's one saber]."😉.
Because when he already fought off all 4 of Grievous's Sabers, I really don't see how GG's last 2 Sabers would pose a problem. Not sure where the contradiction is.
Just answer me 2 things. Do you believe Grievous is just as formidable with 1 Saber as he is with 4? And do you believe all the times Ventress fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan together, that she could have done that just as well with a single Saber?
As for the being one with the force thing. So what? Do we have any account of Fisto's mind state in that fight? Or have we ever seen Fisto being capable of anything vastly superior? If not then the point's irrelevant.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not impressed. There is literally nothing from a genuine comparison between the two duels that would conclude that Obi-Wan is out of Kit’s proverbial league, and that is simply a fact.
Let's just simplify this so you don't end up wasting time on overly long rebuttals. My main points are:
1. ROTS Obi-Wan could not possibly have done any better. So I'm not sure what you expected Obi-Wan to do to prove he's Fisto's superior.
2. I don't believe using Grievous as the only medium to compare 2 Duelists is a good comparative at all. Eeth Koth has defeated him. Adi Gallia fought him for a short time and held him off just fine. Doesn't mean they're both in Kenobi's league.
3. Going by all feats, showings and quotes puts Obi-Wan considerably above Fisto. And that's really how we should compare them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So because he was engaging in banter he was going easy?Yet when he got his lightsaber back they had quite a lengthy duel. In fact, soon after getting it back she still gets a kick in on him. If he were truly so much better than her he would have won swiftly after getting it back.
Firstly I never claimed he's so much above Ventress. Although his coming fights with Maul and Opress may make an argument towards that. But at the moment there's nothing to suggest so.
Second you need to make up your mind if easily evading lightsaber attacks shows blatant superiority or not.
In the other thread your claiming Dooku showed how easily he can take Opress by dodging several of his strikes. But even though Obi-Wan did the same thing, your not seeing that as a sign of clear superiority.
You can't have it both ways Nephthys.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly I never claimed he's so much above Ventress.
Nor have I claimed that she is so much above him. I think they are fairly even.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Although his coming fights with Maul and Opress may make an argument towards that. But at the moment there's nothing to suggest so.
I agree. We'll see with the fight. It will be very impressive if he performs well.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second you need to make up your mind if easily evading lightsaber attacks shows blatant superiority or not.In the other thread your claiming Dooku showed how easily he can take Opress by dodging several of his strikes. But even though Obi-Wan did the same thing, your not seeing that as a sign of clear superiority.
You can't have it both ways Nephthys.
In this case we have the contradicting evidence that she disarmed him, got under his guard with a kick and dueled him evenly for quite some time, showing that they really aren't that far apart. I don't think he embarrassed her, it was a good fight.
In the case of Dooku there is no such evidence. I feel that he could have killed him were he so inclined.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just answer me 2 things. Do you believe Grievous is just as formidable with 1 Saber as he is with 4?
Probably not. Grievous is a cyborg with almost an entire robotic body, so his body does not funtion the same as a regular human/humanoid. He has a computer device implanted in his brain which likely takes away the issue of coordination.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And do you believe all the times Ventress fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan together, that she could have done that just as well with a single Saber?
Probably not. Using two sabers is a style she a master of and is most comfortable with. That doesn't mean it does not have it's disadvantages.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1. ROTS Obi-Wan could not possibly have done any better. So I'm not sure what you expected Obi-Wan to do to prove he's Fisto's superior.3. Going by all feats, showings and quotes puts Obi-Wan considerably above Fisto. And that's really how we should compare them.
Having more feats and quotes does not put Kenobi above Fisto. All we need to know is that the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was performing at his very best during his duel with Grievous (unity-with-the-force business). Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.
So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.