Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.
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Originally posted by NephthysIn this case we have the contradicting evidence that she disarmed him, got under his guard with a kick and dueled him evenly for quite some time, showing that they really aren't that far apart.
And in the Dooku vs Opress case there is the contradicting evidence that Dooku was disarmed and floored.
Dodging is impressive but it's not the all and end all.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think he embarrassed her, it was a good fight.
Yeah I agree. But I think he won that one.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Probably not. Grievous is a cyborg with almost an entire robotic body, so his body does not funtion the same as a regular human/humanoid. He has a computer device implanted in his brain which likely takes away the issue of coordination.
I've always thought of the Force to be more useful than robotics.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Probably not. Using two sabers is a style she a master of and is most comfortable with. That doesn't mean it does not have it's disadvantages.
I never claimed there's no disadvantages to it. But I think past fights show it helps to hold off multiple lightsaber wielding opponents or just multiple lightsabers.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm
???
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Having more feats and quotes does not put Kenobi above Fisto. All we need to know is that the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was performing at his very best during his duel with Grievous (unity-with-the-force business). Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.
I don't know what you and Tempest expected to see from Kenobi to put him above Fisto.
You don't want to compare feats and showings in general, only against Grievous, and then you want to write off Kenobi's Superior showing against Grievous because he melded with the Force.
There was no exceptional circumstance that forced him into that. If he can reach such a state then that's just a part of Kenobi's skill and attunement to the Force. That only helps his case really.
It's an extremely simple concept that has already been explained to you: more feats does not translate to combat superiority. We're comparing Kit's performance against Grievous vs. Obi-Wan's because it is the single most accurate measure for either of them, because it is something that both have done under similar circumstances: even ground, on Grievous's home turf, etc.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Fisto matched Ventrss just as well as, if not better than Kenobi, in the Cestus Deception novel, even though they both lost to her. Kenobi also noted in the same novel that Fisto was the superior swordsman by a considerable margin.And BTW - the plural form of Jedi is still Jedi, not Jedis or "Jedi's."
Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair
of
blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly,
lips
curling into a smile.
"Finally," she said.
"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like
fire,
Ven-tress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of
light
that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and
swerved,
collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands,
knees,
feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.
Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch
such
a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.
He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and
slaughter
the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got
in
each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a
breeze.
He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded
and
groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ven-tress had pierced
his
guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove
away
from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.
Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity.
Kit
rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake.
Ventress
stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph,
laughing
in that arctic voice.
The Jedi tore his way through the X'Ting, breaking arms and legs as
he
went, then drew his lightsaber.
"This is between me and Ventress," he screamed. Enough of this
play!
"Anyone who stands between us, dies. Translate it, Ventress!"
"Why?" She snarled. "What?" he said scornfully. "Haven't you learned what you wanted
to
learn? Seen what you wanted to see? What is the point in sending
these
children to their death? They only die because they trust you. Is
there
nothing left inside you? If not goodness, then loyalty?"
Her eyes flickered for a moment, and he knew that something he'd
said
had struck a nerve. She nodded. "Tell them to leave," she said, and
the
protocol droid spat out its translation.
He covered the distance between them with a single
somersaulting
leap. Asajj Ventress was extraordinarily quick, but her very ferocity
gave
Obi-Wan a hairline opening, a moment when he had the better leverage.
He
blocked Ventress's lightsabers, and managed to pin her blades down.
Ventress was surprised, but in the next moment disengaged her
right
hand blade and slashed at his neck, attempting to behead him.
There was no time for conscious thought, no time for anything
but
response as Obi-Wan ducked and spun back. Ventress drew his attention
to
the left and leapt into the air in a spinning kick that slammed ObiWan
down into the dock. Once down, he never had a chance to get up again,
found
himself fighting from his back, wiggling and edging backwards, movement
so
limited that he knew the confrontation might be over within seconds.
The
first touch of desperation wormed its way through his emotional shields.
Obi-Wan bared his teeth. As Master Yoda had often said these days,
The
dark side has clouded the Galaxy. Difficult to see, the future is.
Floating below the dock, Kit Fisto could still hardly move. He
had
barely evaded death from a lightsaber wound to the head, and his
senses
still were far away. But some deep instinct had warned him that
his
compatriot Obi-Wan was in trouble, fighting to protect both their lives.
Hewoke up enough to reach for his lightsaber.
He triggered it, and sliced the pilings supporting the dock.
Ventress
howled in surprise as she and Obi-Wan tumbled into the water. Kit
wanted
desperately to help, but had exhausted his supply of strength.
Surrendering
to his wounds, he lost consciousness.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's an extremely simple concept that has already been explained to you:.
I've also been explaining very simple factors involved that you and S66 don't seem to get.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
more feats does not translate to combat superiority.
No but superior feats and showings are usually a pretty good indication.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We're comparing Kit's performance against Grievous vs. Obi-Wan's because it is the single most accurate measure for either of them, because it is something that both have done under similar circumstances: even ground, on Grievous's home turf, etc.
So I guess we should compare Mace Windu and Count Dooku's combat abilities solely by their performance against Sora Bulq right? And ignore all other feats and showings?
And again I ask you, how do you expect Kenobi to do better against Grievous? He stomped him in Sabers and in the Force. What more do you expect him to do to Grievous before your open to the possibility Kenobi may be in a league above Fisto?
And I don't find Grievous the perfect medium of comparison at all since it's been made clear that pretty much any Jedi Master can best him. That doesn't somehow make Kenobi an average Jedi.
With similar showings against Ventress in the Cestus Deception, as well as both of them besting General Grievous, it's illogical to conclude that Kenobi is in another league as compared to Fisto. They are very similar in martial prowess, and as such, should be considered as being in the same tier together. Any argument insisting otherwise is... desperate and stinks of bullshit.
Now, does that mean that Sidious would do a 8 second blitz on Kenobi? Not necessarily in 8 seconds, considering Kenobi is one hell of a masterful defensive swordsman, but it wouldn't take long at all. Because of Sidous' power in the Force, which translates into his swordplay as well, Kenobi simply would not and could not last long against Sidious in either lightsaber combat, or a Force contest. To think otherwise is silly.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And ignore all other feats and showings?
No one is ignoring Kenobi's feats, DP. If those feats somehow outweigh his performance against Grievous, and Kenobi was not fighting to the best of his ability, then I would be able to see your point. But the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was fighting to the best of his ability.
Kenobi, fighting his best against Grievous, and with an advantage of more experience with Grievous, still only managed to do just as well as Fisto did. That's basically what we are saying.
Also, Kenobi himself describes Fisto as the better swordsman here in another section from The Cestus Deception (apologies for the shitty formatting in my previous post):
"For two hours Obi-Wan Kenobi and Kit Fisto had practiced with
their lightsabers, increasing their pace slowly and steadily as the
minutes passed. The cargo bay sizzled with an energized metallic tang as
their sabers singed moisture from the air.
A Jedi's life was his or her lightsaber. Some criticized the
weapon, saying that a blaster or bomb was more efficient, making it easier for
a soldier to kill from a distance. To those who reckoned such
things statistically, this was an important advantage. But a Jedi was not a soldier, not an assassin, not a killer,
although upon occasion they had been forced into such roles. For Jedi Knights,
the interaction between Jedi and the life-form in question was a vital aspect
of the energy field from which they drew their powers. Ship-to-ship
combat, sentient versus nonsentient, warrior against warrior: it mattered not.
The interaction itself created a web of energy. A Jedi climbed it, surfed
it, drew power from it. In standing within arm's reach of an opponent, a
Jedi walked the edge between life and death.
Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking
holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the
better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style.
But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms
of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to
force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be
best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow
of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.
A Master from the Sabilon region of Glee Anselm, Kit was
a practitioner of Form I lightsaber combat: it was the most ancient style
of fighting, based on ancient sword techniques. Obi-Wan's own Padawan
learner, Anakin, used Form V, which concentrated on strength. The lethal Count
Dooku had used Form II, an elegant, precise style that stressed
advanced precision in blade manipulation. Obi-Wan himself specialized in Form III. This form grew out
of laser-blast deflection training, and maximized defensive protection.
For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into
apreplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple
under Master Yoda's tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each
other's rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous
engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the
rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize
feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce
random environmental elements into the interaction: furniture, walls,
slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying
to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the
most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow."
Hell, it even mentions the fact that Fisto had to handicap himself in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field. With that being said, it's extremely hard to argue for Kenobi being the better warrior, let alone in a another league as compared to Fisto. Kit is every bit as good as Kenobi, if not better.
SIDIOUS 66
No one is ignoring Kenobi's feats, DP. If those feats somehow outweigh his performance against Grievous, and Kenobi was not fighting to the best of his ability, then I would be able to see your point. But the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was fighting to the best of his ability.Kenobi, fighting his best against Grievous, and with an advantage of more experience with Grievous, still only managed to do just as well as Fisto did. That's basically what we are saying.
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Jinsoku Takai
Now, does that mean that Sidious would do a 8 second blitz on Kenobi? Not necessarily in 8 seconds, considering Kenobi is one hell of a masterful defensive swordsman, but it wouldn't take long at all. Because of Sidous' power in the Force, which translates into his swordplay as well, Kenobi simply would not and could not last long against Sidious in either lightsaber combat, or a Force contest. To think otherwise is silly.
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Jinsoku Takai
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Nephthys
Well then, that clears that up.
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Darth POWER
So I guess we should compare Mace Windu and Count Dooku's combat abilities solely by their performance against Sora Bulq right? And ignore all other feats and showings?
Comparing the two based off their performances against Bulq is certainly legitimate and would conclude that one isn't out of the other's league (a fact confirmed by their clash at Boz Pity).
Darth POWER
And again I ask you, how do you expect Kenobi to do better against Grievous? He stomped him in Sabers and in the Force. What more do you expect him to do to Grievous before your open to the possibility Kenobi may be in a league above Fisto?
Nothing, Kenobi gave his very best. It's a simple issue that his very best doesn't outstrip Kit's performance against the same foe under suspiciously similar circumstances.
Darth POWER
And I don't find Grievous the perfect medium of comparison at all since it's been made clear that pretty much any Jedi Master can best him. That doesn't somehow make Kenobi an average Jedi.
With the exception of Ahsoka and Nadhar Vebb (who each lost to Grievous), every Jedi who's clashed with the general was a member of the Jedi Council, who (like Obi-Wan) aren't average Jedi.
Originally posted by The_TempestComparing the two based off their performances against Bulq is certainly legitimate and would conclude that one isn't out of the other's league (a fact confirmed by their clash at Boz Pity).
Well that will probably change. I doubt is Obsession canon anymore. CW Series will decide Ventress's fate instead.
Well the response is actually kind of obvious JT:
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
With similar showings against Ventress in the Cestus Deception,
Which means nothing because by the CW movie Obi-Wan is able to defeat Ventress. So he's obviously improved considerably since Cestus Deception.
So unless you can show Fisto has also improved since then and he is also capable of taking Ventress now, this point is moot. In fact this point actually helps prove Current CW/ROTS Obi-Wan being above Fisto.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
as well as both of them besting General Grievous, it's illogical to conclude that Kenobi is in another league as compared to Fisto.
This is the logic I'm still not getting. How does both of them besting Grievous put them both in the same league?
Eeth Koth had Grievous defeated if not for the Magnaguards. Does that put Eeth Koth on par with Kenobi? No. It just mean they're both above Grievous.
Btw According to Dooku in "Lair of Grievous" it would be a great accomplishment for Grievous to defeat a Jedi "Master".
And Dave Filoni has recently said that any Jedi can beat Grievous once they get over the intimidation factor of him wielding multiple lightsabers.
This goes hand in hand with the way Dooku taught Grievous to defeat Jedi Masters, with Fear, Intimidation and Surprise on his side. Without those 3 things Jedi Masters are simply out of his league. That doesn't mean all those Jedi Masters are equal to each to other.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Hell, it even mentions the fact that Fisto had to handicap himself in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field. With that being said, it's extremely hard to argue for Kenobi being the better warrior, let alone in a another league as compared to Fisto. Kit is every bit as good as Kenobi, if not better.
Now, to be fair here this was in the opening weeks of the war according to Chee's new timeline. There is no doubt that he improved considerably between AotC and RotS.
Anyway, while Kenobi may not have fared much better against Grevious then Fisto (I'd also point out that Windu did't stomp Grevious in a saber fight as well), he fared far better against Ventress specifically in his fight on Teth than Fisto did. And of course we have his duel with Anakin. Yes, there was a massive dosage of PIS at the end but until then Obi-Wan was holding his own.
That feat alone suggests to me that Sidious sure as hell isn't blitzing Obi-Wan Kenobi in a lightsaber duel.