My favorite depiction of Grievous is from the ROTS novel, particularly his opening scene.
Labyrinth of Evil is pretty good, but the truth is that Grievous was never portrayed as an unstoppable foe in anything but the micro-series and a handful of comics.
People get hung up on TCW!Grievous losing to Gungans, but that was context specific. Every fight he's ever been in on the show has been relatively close. The most lopsided fight he's been in was, ironically, his duel with Kit.
The problem, for me anyway, is that I prefer Grievous as a nigh-unstoppable force who can roll through basically anyone except for the most powerful of Jedi. It's not as if the "bad guys" of the series have individuals of that caliber in spades (Dooku seems to be the only one, except lol@being captured by pirates), whereas the Jedi do (In Yoda and Mace, for example). He was introduced in the micro-series as being not just a monster in close-combat who could roll teams of masters and knights and ARC's with no problem, but was also a strategic genius.
He hasn't been portrayed as either in this series. I could handle him not being unstoppable, but it isn't just that he's been portrayed as not quite the ultimate badass, but also that he's pretty much just a ***** in general. He's a coward who flees from almost every fight he's in, almost every duel he's been involved in has ended with him either running away, or in a tie, and he's shown pretty much no tactical/strategic prowess what-so-ever throughout the series, either winning a victory that's pyrrhic at most, or getting outright foiled by Republic time and again.
I would prefer if they just killed him off (which they obviously can't do due to RotS), as his character is basically pointless. It's already been established that he's hardly a formidable foe for the Jedi and the Republic. He has no respect within the CIS, with even Ventress regularly talking shit to him. The only role he really serves in the story is to be The Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain, who twirls his mustache and cackles villainously before running away sputtering and cursing and shaking his fist at the heroes for foiling his dastardly plot.
Meh.
It's okay though. In my mind the current cartoon series isn't even canon, thus I still cling to his portrayal within the novels, comics and the micro-series.
Originally posted by ares834
Now, to be fair here this was in the opening weeks of the war according to Chee's new timeline. There is no doubt that he improved considerably between AotC and RotS.
If Fisto managed to do just as good as Kenobi who was fighting at his very best, then it's likely Fisto has also improved. More than likely, in fact.
I understand that Kenobi has taken more superior opponents than Fisto has, but the fact still remains that Kenobi at his very best still only managed to do so good against Grievous, which still did not top Fisto's performance against Grievous. If an argument could be made that ROTS Kenobi could have done better than he did, then I would able to see yours and DP's point, but such an argument can't be made; the ROTS novel makes it clear that Kenobi was performing at his very best ("unity with the force"😉.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Fisto managed to do just as good as Kenobi who was fighting at his very best, then it's likely Fisto has also improved. More than likely, in fact.
Fisto likely improved, yes. But we don't know by how much. By contrast, we can assess how much Kenobi improved.
Also if we're saying Fisto improved, I'd also bring up that Grevious likely improved. After all we see Dooku training him in the old CW cartoon.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I understand that Kenobi has taken more superior opponents than Fisto has, but the fact still remains that Kenobi at his very best still only managed to do so good against Grievous, which still did not top Fisto's performance against Grievous. If an argument could be made that ROTS Kenobi could have done better than he did, then I would able to see yours and DP's point, but such an argument can't be made; the ROTS novel makes it clear that Kenobi was performing at his very best ("unity with the force"😉.
Once again, even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel. Does that mean Fisto is on Windu's level? Of course not as Mace has other feats that put him beyond Fisto. It works the same way with Kenobi.
ares834
Once again, even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel. Does that mean Fisto is on Windu's level? Of course not as Mace has other feats that put him beyond Fisto. It works the same way with Kenobi.
Given how Kit, Koth, and Ventress have handily defeated Grievous in TCW, I think we can chalk that up to a good, old fashioned retcon.
Originally posted by ares834
Once again, even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel. Does that mean Fisto is on Windu's level? Of course not as Mace has other feats that put him beyond Fisto. It works the same way with Kenobi.
Perhaps an argument could be made that Mace could have done better when we compare his other feats. But such an argument can't be made for Kenobi, considering how he was fighting at his very best and how he struggled against Grievous in the past.
Correct. There's simply nothing indicating that Obi-Wan and Kit are in different "leagues." Obi-Wan was the beneficiary of a state of unity with the Force during his last fight with Grievous and did nothing extraordinary compared to Kit's performance. Between this and the fact that Kit is a "celebrated swordsman" trusted enough by Mace to aid in the arrest of a threat infinitely greater than Grievous, I see no reason to believe that Obi-Wan outclassed any of the Jedi Council.
But now that I'm re-examining Mace's fight with Grievous in LOE, there's nothing underwhelming about it. Mace's thoughts certainly suggest that Grievous is more formidable than higher canon (ROTS, TCW) has determined he is, but he never has Mace on the back foot and the confrontation isn't very long.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Correct. There's simply nothing indicating that Obi-Wan and Kit are in different "leagues." Obi-Wan was the beneficiary of a state of unity with the Force during his last fight with Grievous and did nothing extraordinary compared to Kit's performance. Between this and the fact that Kit is a "celebrated swordsman" trusted enough by Mace to aid in the arrest of a threat infinitely greater than Grievous, I see no reason to believe that Obi-Wan outclassed any of the Jedi Council.
Agreed.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who said we throw it out?
What else are you suggesting?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Perhaps an argument could be made that Mace could have done better when we compare his other feats. But such an argument can't be made for Kenobi, considering how he was fighting at his very best and how he struggled against Grievous in the past.
And yet, we have other feats that Kenobi has preformed. Many of which are beyond Fisto like besting Ventress.
The problem I have with solely looking at the Grevious duels is that in both cases it's pretty much an ass whooping. Therefore, neither of the Jedi really get to show "what they are made of" as they simply outclass their opponent.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But now that I'm re-examining Mace's fight with Grievous in LOE, there's nothing underwhelming about it. Mace's thoughts certainly suggest that Grievous is more formidable than higher canon (ROTS, TCW) has determined he is, but he never has Mace on the back foot and the confrontation isn't very long.
Certainly. Nor did I ever state it was. In fact, my words were "even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel". However, he certainly doesn't seem to be doing any better than Fisto or Kenobi
Hell, I don't even think Grevious uses all his arms in the duel.
Originally posted by The_TempestTo be fair, Mace's choices in that situation were hardly stellar. Yoda was off-planet, Obi-Wan was off-planet, Anakin couldn't be trusted, Depa Billaba was in a coma, Ki-Adi-Mundi was off-planet. What Jedi did Mace really have to choose from?
Between this and the fact that Kit is a "celebrated swordsman" trusted enough by Mace to aid in the arrest of a threat infinitely greater than Grievous, I see no reason to believe that Obi-Wan outclassed any of the Jedi Council.
Me:
"And Dave Filoni has recently said that any Jedi can beat Grievous"
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No.
You know your lucky I can't find which interview he's said that in right now. I've been listening to a lot of his interviews lately so it would take ages to find which one he said that in.
But he basically said Grievous's advantage over Jedi is through Intimidation, and once Jedi get past that they can defeat him.
Interestingly the one Knight he did kill in the series was Fisto's former Padawan, and he did that by pulling out a Blaster with another arm (mid-saber fight) and shooting him. He didn't actually out duel him IIRC.
Nevertheless Dooku tells GG in that episode that Victory over the clones and young Knight was expected, but to defeat a Jedi Master would have been a real accomplishment. So it's clear any Master could potentially defeat him.
Which I'm happy with tbh. I would like to think being a Jedi Master still means something.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Perhaps an argument could be made that Mace could have done better when we compare his other feats. But such an argument can't be made for Kenobi,
That's exactly the argument that can be made.
His fights against Ventress, Sith Anakin, Maul. Apparently challenging Maul & Opress together. There's nothing anywhere that suggests Fisto can do anywhere near as well against such opponents.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
considering how he was fighting at his very best
And he tooled him. What else do you want. Like Ares has correctly pointed out, if you just compare their fights with Grievous (like you and Tempest are so keen on doing with Fisto and Kenobi) then Kenobi looks like a superior Saber duelist to Windu.
So like I keep saying Grievous is a stupid medium to compare Jedi swordsmen.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and how he struggled against Grievous in the past.
His first full fight with Grievous was in "Grievous Intrigue" I believe (I'm not sure if Arc troopers takes place earlier) where he fought off Grievous and a magnaguard, faced Grievous in an enclosed space (unlike Fisto did) and still defeated him and had him on the run.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Fisto managed to do just as good as Kenobi who was fighting at his very best, then it's likely Fisto has also improved. More than likely, in fact.
What? Fisto had been a Master much longer than Kenobi, so the chances of him radically improving in 3 years are quite low.
And we certainly can't just assume he did without proof.
Edit- And saying Fisto did "Just as well as Kenobi" against GG is a huge exaggeration. He didn't. He fought him for just as long, but never cut off a second arm or have him soundly defeated like Kenobi did. And his Force push was no where near as powerful.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
To be fair, Mace's choices in that situation were hardly stellar. Yoda was off-planet, Obi-Wan was off-planet, Anakin couldn't be trusted, Depa Billaba was in a coma, Ki-Adi-Mundi was off-planet. What Jedi did Mace really have to choose from?
Yeah, but if you read the ROTS novel, Yoda's departure was also a move by the Jedi to lure Sidious out in the open by having their leader leave the planet while having enough powerful Masters (I believe Mace and Agen Kolar are mentioned specifically) to confront Sidious should he make his move.