ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry but that's wrong.

Hey Arhael good to see you back here!

Originally posted by Arhael
Even Yoda can get caught off guard, recall how Sidious electrocuted him right at the beginning of fight.

Yes but that was before the fight even started. And it only happened once, not twice during the fight like in Kenobi's case.

If Dooku can catch Kenobi off guard Twice, while fighting off Anakin, then wouldn't that just make Dooku a superior combatant to Kenobi in an all out??

Originally posted by Arhael
And Anakin like Kenobi is not proficient with TK, so whatever state he is in, he can't Force handle Kenobi.

Well there was that huge feat on Mortis.. And then there was the collapsing of that building in the CW Epsiode "Gungan attack.." As well as in LOE. And the levitating of the Statue in the cut scene to the ROTS Video game.

But even if we just ignore Anakin's superior TK feats and just accept that Anakin and Obi-Wan both stalemated each other in their force push contest in ROTS...

Still we would have to accept Anakin's Force Reserves/Potential/Connection to the Force (whatever) aids him in tanking Force TK attacks much better than Kenobi can, since We Know he's been able to handle Dooku's TK, even when he's not tried to intercept them with his own Force attack, whilst from what we've seen Obi-Wan seems to have very little defense against TK attacks of such magnitude.

So even though in Saber skills Obi-Wan and Anakin are clearly quite equal, and even though Obi-Wan's defensive nature greatly helps to neutralize Anakin's strength advantage by giving ground, still it should be clear Anakin is the more powerful and dangerous combatant in an all out. Hence why Skywalker can handle Dooku but Kenobi can not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. you do know the point buddy and you know exactly it significance. Question... When Anakin made the leap.. Did he not try and strike Kenobi down with his saber.. only to have it blocked and countered with a strike from Kenobi which sliced him into pieces? That is exactly what happened i.e. SWORD fight. They weren't going h2h... they weren't use force powers... Kenobi landed the WINNING BLOW DURING THE SWORD porition of the fight. A jump.. a block.. a counter strike.. VICTORY. That is how most swords fights play out y aknow.. acting like it was anything other than is reaching.. and I mean REALLY reaching.

Yeah but it was nothing to do with skill or power. It was just a stupid move on Anakin's part. Kenobi himself said "Don't do it," as in don't be so stupid. Doesn't matter how skilled or powerful you are you can't beat me from making a jum from that position.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. You keep on bringing up Anakin making dumb moves only because he turned to the darkside and was emotional.. Yet, he's made dumb moves when he was a jedi and hadn't turned to the darkside nor overly emotional. Is this not true? Let's not pretend the only time Anakin made bold rash dumb moves was when he was an unstable newly turned sith. This was a common problem for Anakin made clear over and over again in novelization and movies. What does this mean? No WHICH Anakin Kenobi fights.. Anakin STILL is more likely to make a dumb bold move or loss control of his emtions before Kenobi.. True or False?

False. As a Jedi Knight Anakin was not known for making dumb tactical moves AT ALL! He was known for making rash bold moves, which 9 times out of 10 ended in victory and made the other Jedi end up looking dumb for not taking action.

He was quite frankly a genius beyond Kenobi's caliber.

But yes Kenobi keeps a cooler head. But don't act like that means it's normal for Skywalker to make such a tactically dumb move.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. You keep acting like I believe Kenobi would lose in sword play against Dooku.. You keep acting like this is a fact in evidence when it's not. Dooku beat Kenobi (after he was a soresu master) WITH THE FORCE. He didn't beat him with sword play. I personally believe if Dooku engaged Kenobi in just swordplay like he did Anakin.. Kenobi would eventually win. You don't agree? Dooku gained the advantage over Kenobi with force powers not sowrdplay.. Dooku only engaged Anakin in swordplay.. So I'm not seeing this "it puts him well beyond kenobi" because he beat Dooku in swordplay only. Do you believe Anakin woudl beat dooku in a force powers only fight?

Yes and Dooku can't beat Skywalker even WITH THE FORCE. But as I've just explained to Arhael that only means Skywalker's abilities aid him in tanking Force attacks much better than Kenobi can.

Add that to his strength and saber skills which equal Kenobi's won, and that makes Skywalker overall more powerful than either Kenobi or Dooku.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. Point is.. an older kenobi statemated a much more proficient and prodigous user of the force in Vader. A more force powerful Vader wasn't able to beat a well past his best Kenobi. The most logical convlusion would then be.. that a younger in his prime Kenobi would have a much better shot at beating Vader/Anakin... True or false? Guess what IT HAPPENED.

Are you kidding me? OT Vader would do the same thing to ROTS Kenobi that Dooku did.

Dooku also has superior TK to ROTS Skywlaker, but Skywlaker was still superior to him.

If you want to talk about ROTS Skywalker vs OT Vader, that would be an interesting fight Imo. It all comes down to which would triumph with superior TK against Superior Swordplay.

I'm guessing the result would be different each time. Neither of them is going to win 8-10/10 that's for sure.

If you want to talk about ROTS Skywalker vs Old Ben, that fight's almost a joke. Skywalker would do the same to him that he did to Dooku. But probably more easily.

Also most people believe Vader would have almsot definitely defeated Old Ben had the fight continued.

Yes and Dooku can't beat Skywalker even WITH THE FORCE. But as I've just explained to Arhael that only means Skywalker's abilities aid him in tanking Force attacks much better than Kenobi can.

Add that to his strength and saber skills which equal Kenobi's won, and that makes Skywalker overall more powerful than either Kenobi or Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but it was nothing to do with skill or power. It was just a stupid move on Anakin's part. Kenobi himself said "Don't do it," as in don't be so stupid. Doesn't matter how skilled or powerful you are you can't beat me from making a jum from that position.

To make it clear and simple:

lightsaber skills - equal

force ability - equal

intelligence - Obi Wan

= Obi Wan is superior

I don't know how people come to the conclusion that Anakin is far smarter than Obi Wan. For me thats just absurd.

Originally posted by mnat801
I don't know how people come to the conclusion that Anakin is far smarter than Obi Wan. For me thats just absurd.

Originally posted by Arhael
He is, when he is not angry. But he fights well only when angry. 🙂
In one of CW episodes he tried to kill Kenobi but ended up being choked by him.

What episode was that?

The one where Kenobi faked his death and was disguised as his own assassin. Anakin got all pissy.

Originally posted by Arhael
I lost you here. Yes, Anakin demonstrated good Force defense in fight with Dooku but how it makes him winning Kenobi by default? Kenobi not gonna be Force attacking him. Same way Anakin not gonna use Force offensively. Not a single time he used Force attacks during combat. In fact his Force push in RotS is the first time, when we see him Force attacking someone. So it all goes to saber combat. Jedi Anakin will fight less offensively than darkside one, so he is less likely to penetrate Kenobi's defense, which means fight will likely last until one of them gets tired. While Anakin has larger Force reserves, Kenobi's style conserves energy, so they still have equal chance to get tired. So it's still 50/50.

My point wasn't that Anakin will beat Obi-Wan because he is better at tanking force attacks. My point was his extra force reserves just make him the more powerful and dangerous opponent overall (hence why he is able to defeat Count Dooku when Kenobi seemingly can not.)

Skywalker's superior connection to the Force results not only in him being able to tank force attacks much better than Obi-Wan but also in having infinitely better stamina and being much stronger.

Whilst Obi-Wan's defensive style helps negate the strength advantage by giving ground, chances are Skywalker will still eventually win.

But your wrong about Kenobi being able to last as long as Anakin. His style of conserving energy is going to cost him a lot more energy when dealing with Anakin's strength (and btw he's still stronger even when not fully enraged).

Also the ROTS Script points out that both Dooku and Obi-Wan got tired whilst Anakin never did.

Originally posted by mnat801
You said it yourself. Anakin made the stupid move, not Obi Wan, therefore making Obi Wan the more smarter opponent. But, like you said, it had nothing to do with skill or power, so it doesn't come down to lightsaber skills or use of the force. It comes down to intelligence, therefore, in that last bit of the fight, Obi Wan proved that he was the superior warrior, and the one left standing. If it was Obi Wan that made the stupid move, and then was cut up, then by all means I have no argument with you.

No, Sith Anakin's arrogance made the stupid move. Not Jedi Anakin.

Jedi Anakin was much smarter than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by mnat801
I don't know how people come to the conclusion that Anakin is far smarter than Obi Wan. For me thats just absurd.

It's proven many times over. Deal with it. Go back through the thread I've given mutilple examples which I refuse to constantly repeat to those who don't want to listen.

Originally posted by mnat801
To make it clear and simple:

lightsaber skills - equal

force ability - equal

intelligence - Obi Wan

= Obi Wan is superior

I'll correct you:

Lightsaber skills - equal (this is the only one you got right).

force ability - Skywalker's stronger connection to the force gives him much greater force defenses as proven against Count Dooku. (He also has better force tk feats but seems to need a few seconds to pull those off, exmaples are on Mortis and in the Gungan attack episodes). So yeah Skywalker is superior is this department.

Intelligence - Skywalker by a MILE!

Stamina - You missed this important factor out. Anakin wins.

Overall - I'm sure you can work it out from the above.

Originally posted by Arhael
He is, when he is not angry. But he fights well only when angry. 🙂

That's not true. He's just as skilled a swordsman as Kenobi, angry or not. And with his force reserves and cyborg arm he's always stronger and always has greater stamina, angry or not.

Originally posted by Arhael
In one of CW episodes he tried to kill Kenobi but ended up being choked by him.

Not a Saber fight. And not a fair one either considering Obi-Wan knew his opponent, whilst Skywalker had no clue he was up against even a Jedi let alone his former teacher.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I'll correct you:

Lightsaber skills - equal (this is the only one you got right).

force ability - Skywalker's stronger connection to the force gives him much greater force defenses as proven against Count Dooku. (He also has better force tk feats but seems to need a few seconds to pull those off, exmaples are on Mortis and in the Gungan attack episodes). So yeah Skywalker is superior is this department.

Intelligence - Skywalker by a MILE!

Stamina - You missed this important factor out. Anakin wins.

Overall - I'm sure you can work it out from the above.

I missed out Strength which obviously goes to Anakin. However I agree Kenobi's defensive style can negate that factor by giving ground.

But still extra strength can only help. Skywalker's just got too many factors going for him.

but also in having infinitely better stamina and being much stronger.

But your wrong about Kenobi being able to last as long as Anakin. His style of conserving energy is going to cost him a lot more energy when dealing with Anakin's strength (and btw he's still stronger even when not fully enraged).

Also the ROTS Script points out that both Dooku and Obi-Wan got tired whilst Anakin never did.

So, if they had equal power, Anakin would get tired first but because Anakin is superior, there is still good chance of Kenobi getting tired first. However, we can't say for a fact and can only assume because there is no evidence to prove it. So you have to accept that they both have more or less equal chance to outlast each other. 😉

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, Sith Anakin's arrogance made the stupid move. Not Jedi Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jedi Anakin was much smarter than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's proven many times over. Deal with it. Go back through the thread I've given mutilple examples which I refuse to constantly repeat to those who don't want to listen.

Its not that I don't want to listen, its just that I don't have the time to read every single post. So I may have missed these examples.

But you need to stop thinking that your right and no one else is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll correct you:

Lightsaber skills - equal (this is the only one you got right).

force ability - Skywalker's stronger connection to the force gives him much greater force defenses as proven against Count Dooku. (He also has better force tk feats but seems to need a few seconds to pull those off, exmaples are on Mortis and in the Gungan attack episodes). So yeah Skywalker is superior is this department.

Intelligence - Skywalker by a MILE!

Stamina - You missed this important factor out. Anakin wins.

Overall - I'm sure you can work it out from the above.

Intelligence - Skywalker wasn't intelligent enough to know that he was about to make a stupid move. Kenobi is never that reckless or stupid.

Stamina - You do realise that the result of the Mustafar duel wasn't due to who had more stamina, but who had more intelligence. Stamina didn't get Sith Anakin any victory over Kenobi, so I don't know why it matters that he had more stamina.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I missed out Strength which obviously goes to Anakin. However I agree Kenobi's defensive style can negate that factor by giving ground.

But still extra strength can only help. Skywalker's just got too many factors going for him.

Where's the proof that he's stronger anyway? Just because he looks stronger in appearance?

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry but it is clear fallacy. He can't have infinitely better stamina. His potential is not infinitely higher. He has better stamina but there is limit. Indeed he is stronger but not "much" stronger. He never demonstrated himself to be much stronger than Kenobi or Dooku and I already provided you with plenty of evidence.

What? Did you completely miss the whole passage in the ROTS Novel when Dooku describes how strong Skywalker is and how powerful his blows were? He didn't seem to have similar trouble dealing with Obi-Wan's strength, even when Obi-Wan was on the offensive.

I'm not sure where you've proven that Obi-Wan and Dooku are both as strong as Anakin, because that clearly can't be true. There's a reason he was forcing them both backwards.

Originally posted by Arhael
Strictly by styles. Soresu conserves energy. Djem So on opposite requires to use excessive amount of Force. It is canon. So, if two equally powerful practitioners fight, the Form V practitioner will get tired first, unless he wins before that.

That's if they are equally powerful. However they are not. Soresu isn't going to use equal energy to block say Ashoka's blows as it would to block Anakin's blows.

And Obi-Wan with his Soresu will have limits. And I can guarantee he would reach his limit before someone with ridiculous force reserves available to him.

Also Kenobi did seem pretty tired towards the end of their fight in ROTS, whilst Anakin looked like he'd just taken a stroll.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry but here I have to accuse you of making things up. I just checked both script and novel and neither says that Kenobi was getting tired. And there is no mention about Anakin's fitness during fight either.

You need to be more thorough with your checks. From the ROTS Script:

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
So, if they had equal power, Anakin would get tired first but because Anakin is superior, there is still good chance of Kenobi getting tired first. However, we can't say for a fact and can only assume because there is no evidence to prove it. So you have to accept that they both have more or less equal chance to outlast each other. 😉

You've lost me again. You just admitted Anakin has better stamina but then want proof he would last longer??

I think the proof is clearly there:
1) In the script.
2) Towrds the end of their fight in the movie.

So if you want to argue otherwise I'm afraid you will have to bring proof that the stamina of a Soresu user greatly exceeds that of a DJem So/Shien user.

And you would also have to prove that Skywalker does have a limit to his Force Reserve stamina as I don't recall him ever getting tired during a battle 😛

Originally posted by mnat801
Sheesh, Anakin was stronger than Kenobi and STILL couldn't defeat him.

Where's the proof that he's stronger anyway? Just because he looks stronger in appearance?

Originally posted by mnat801
Oh my gosh. We've gone over this before, I know he's Sith Anakin. I hopefully won't have to remind you again that this is the same person we're talking about here.

Yes because it was so in character for Anakin to force choke his wife and talk about overthrowing the Emporer 👆

HE WAS CLEARLY BEHAVING OUT OF CHARACTER.

Originally posted by mnat801
This is a no contest, so stop bringing it up.

Your right there is no contest. Aankin is much smarter than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by mnat801
There is no proof at all that jedi Anakin was a smarter jedi than Kenobi.

There's proof ALL OVER THE CLONE WARS, which I'm getting completely fed up of repeating to you.

Skywalker outsmarted Admiral Trench NOT KENOBI! Kenobi was a douche just sitting there saying don't do anything!

It was Skywalker's idea to use carbonite freezing to sneak past the enemy's sensors. Obi-Wan was on the mission and had no clue how to do that!

Anakin's the one who figured how to stop the Zillo Beast.

Anakin's idea to help Onderon by aiding them in starting a rebellion. What was Kenobi's idea to help them? Oh that's right he didn't have one. It was also Anakin's idea to use Hondo (although that might have been both of them brainstorming).

Point is The CW is FULL OF EXAMPLES of what a genius Skywalker is. Definitely more so than Kenobi.

So stop being ignorant. and open your eyes and deal with the truth.

Obi-Wan is very smart but Skywalker is a genius beyond Kenobi's caliber.

[B]What? Did you completely miss the whole passage in the ROTS Novel when Dooku describes how strong Skywalker is and how powerful his blows were? He didn't seem to have similar trouble dealing with Obi-Wan's strength, even when Obi-Wan was on the offensive.

Higher canon showings never demonstrated any significant difference in direct strength contests either:
In CW Dooku stalemated him in saber lock at least 2 times.

Anakin got choked by Kenobi rather casually despite his anger outbrust and attempts to break free.

In RotS Dooku again stalemated Anakin in saber lock and he did it with normal face and calm voice, while Anakin was making grimaces and straining noises.

At last Anakin demonstrates overpowering Kenobi driving lightsaber into his face. Yet, at the end right before chopping off limbs Kenobi stalemates Anakin in saber lock. If you claim that only Kenobi was tired at the end, then it makes no sence how he could match Anakin's strength at that last moment.

Also Kenobi did seem pretty tired towards the end of their fight in ROTS, whilst Anakin looked like he'd just taken a stroll.

You need to be more thorough with your checks. From the ROTS Script:

You've lost me again. You just admitted Anakin has better stamina but then want proof he would last longer??

So if you want to argue otherwise I'm afraid you will have to bring proof that the stamina of a Soresu user greatly exceeds that of a DJem So/Shien user.

If Soresu doesn't make it easier to
outlast opponent, then how could Kenobi last so much longer than Dooku? Dooku was getting drained in a matter of seconds, Kenobi can't be so much more powerful.

And you would also have to prove that Skywalker does have a limit to his Force Reserve stamina as I don't recall him ever getting tired during a battle 😛

So why should I prove it at all? You made the claim that his reserves are infinite, so go ahead and give canon evidence for that, lack of evidence doesn't make your assumption true.

Lol Anakin being more intelligent than Obi-Wan.

I am of the opinion Obi-Wan can handle a zoned Anakin. Anakin might win, but it would not be a wtf stomp.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Lol Anakin being more intelligent than Obi-Wan.

I am of the opinion Obi-Wan can handle a zoned Anakin. Anakin might win, but it would not be a wtf stomp.