Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously Kenobi's attacks will give easy time to Dooku, his style is defensive.
That's no excuse for not being able to attack well. We know very well he is at least proficient at Ataro, possibly even a master of the style.
Originally posted by Arhael
That Anakin's blows are powerful is not in question, his style is strength oriented, they are supposed to be. And Dooku stated himself that his style is not suitable to meet Djem So "head-to-head". It doesn't prove that there is significant strength difference, only that Dooku gets tired very fast.
Yeah except it was clearly more than just his style. Because Dooku is specifically astonished at just how powerful Skywalker's blows are.
Originally posted by Arhael
Higher canon showings never demonstrated any significant difference in direct strength contests either:
In CW Dooku stalemated him in saber lock at least 2 times.
That doesn't prove anything. Kenobi stalemated both Maul and Opress together in one Saber Lock. You don't honestly think that means Kenobi is as strong as both of them together??
Ventress has also been in a direct saber lock with Opress. That also doesn't mean she's just as strong as him.
But when Skywalker is forcing Dooku/Kenobi backwards so much and Dooku specifically notes he's really struggling handling Skywalker's strength, then that should be more than enough evidence that Skywalker is considerably stronger.
I know your going to say it's just Kenobi's style to give ground. Well I think your putting to much emphasis on styles there. Kenobi doesn't usually give That Much Ground. Which the script specifically notes due to him being Forced Backwards by Skywalker.
Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin got choked by Kenobi rather casually despite his anger outbrust and attempts to break free.
Your putting too much emphasis on that one scene, where Anakin had no idea who he was fighting. It is pretty difficult to break out of a hold like that. Your saying it as if it was an arm wrestle Obi-Wan beat him in or something.
Skywalker not only has a Cyborg Arm which can go toe to toe with an IG-88 Assassin droid in strength, but he has ridiculous force reserves which only make him stronger as the fight goes on.
Originally posted by Arhael
In RotS Dooku again stalemated Anakin in saber lock and he did it with normal face and calm voice, while Anakin was making grimaces and straining noises..
And he was also getting driven back by Skywalker for the majority of the fight, even before Anakin unleashed his full rage.
Originally posted by Arhael
At last Anakin demonstrates overpowering Kenobi driving lightsaber into his face. Yet, at the end right before chopping off limbs Kenobi stalemates Anakin in saber lock. If you claim that only Kenobi was tired at the end, then it makes no sence how he could match Anakin's strength at that last moment.
I've already explained how Jedi/Sith can stalemate a Saber lock now and again against a Stronger Opponent. But if Kenobi was almost as Strong as Skywalker he wouldn't have needed to back off to the extent he was doing the enitre fight.
Originally posted by Arhael
They both seem pretty tired at the end. Look at how fast they exchange attacks at beginning. In final scene their fight is much slower like lightsabers suddenly increased in weight.
You can tell when they're talking. Obi-Wan is puffing and panting while he's talking. Whilst Anakin is talking a lot more calmly. It seems clear to me Kenobi was more tired. Anakin not as much. Although he was getting frustrated.
Originally posted by Arhael
Oh that one. I never read that because I would never think that Kenobi could get tired after 2-3 lightsaber strikes on Dooku and killing two droids.
Remember they were battling many droids before they even reached Dooku and Palpatine.
Originally posted by Arhael
His superior stamina is due to larger Force reserves, yet, exessive use of strength requires heavier Force use wasting those reserves faster.It's common sence really. Defensive fighting makes you last longer. Who gonna get tired first: boxer punching or trainer blocking punches with pads?If Soresu doesn't make it easier to
outlast opponent, then how could Kenobi last so much longer than Dooku? Dooku was getting drained in a matter of seconds, Kenobi can't be so much more powerful.
I agree if they had equal strength and equal reserves that Kenobi would obviously outlast Skywalker due to his defensive nature.
However Skywalker has specifically been noted to have ridiculous reserves. And has only ever been noted as getting stronger.
I admit Kenobi's own reserves and defensive nature will help him to last a long time, (as he did in ROTS) but I see no reason to believe that the difference in styles used will fully compensate for the enormous difference in Force Reserves especially when the Script has specifically noted Kenobi to tire before Skywalker, which you chose to ignore because it doesn't make sense to you.
Well it doesn't make sense to me how Kenobi could get tossed around so easily if he wasn't at least tiring.
Also I think you maybe overestimating how easily a Djem So user tires. Djem So also uses an opponents strength against them then follows up with their own strength to continue. It has Soresu incorporated as it's foundation. Kind of like how Shien delfects blaster bolts back to it's source.
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't remember Kit Fisto ever being tired either.
He was tiring out against Ventress wasn't he??
In any case we've not really seen much of Fisto in action especially not in a prolonged duel.
Originally posted by Arhael
Luke never got Force exhausted prior to Yuuzhan Vong war books, however, in later books he was getting exhausted more and more often.
Could it be that Luke tired more easily as he aged??
Getting exhausted for the first time in a huge battle like that is pretty impressive.
And btw, Anakin most likely had even greater force reserves that Luke.
Originally posted by Arhael
So why should I prove it at all? You made the claim that his reserves are infinite, so go ahead and give canon evidence for that, lack of evidence doesn't make your assumption true.
Urmm maybe because the script notes Kenobi tiring?? Whilst Anakin was only getting stronger. Look I admit Kenobi's reserves and style aids him in lasting a very long time, something Skywalker does naturally. But I'm afraid the evidence suggests Kenobi would get tired first.
Remember Skywalker has more reserves than anyone. That includes Yoda, Sidious, Windu and likely even Luke.
I find it rather amusing that people are claiming ROTS Anakin is more powerful in offensive force powers... yet COULDN'T for the life of him.. push Kenobi back or can the force advantage.. It ended ina force stalemate... Yet people are clamoring about how better in TK Anakin is.. LULZ.
I'm also glad Darth Power.. finally conceded Kenobi BEAT ANAKIN IN A SWORDS.. It only took a few pages.. but he finally conceded this point. Kenobi PROVED to be superior in sword play... Period.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I find it rather amusing that people are claiming ROTS Anakin is more powerful in offensive force powers... yet COULDN'T for the life of him.. push Kenobi back or can the force advantage.. It ended ina force stalemate... Yet people are clamoring about how better in TK Anakin is.. LULZ.
He can obviously tank Force TK hits better than Dooku can. Hence why Count Dooku consistently struggles to defeat Anakin even though he can take Obi-Wan out pretty easily with the Force.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm also glad Darth Power.. finally conceded Kenobi BEAT ANAKIN IN A SWORDS.. It only took a few pages.. but he finally conceded this point. Kenobi PROVED to be superior in sword play... Period.
Hey? When did I concede that? Kenobi is not superior in swordplay. They're dead even in Saber "Skills" as the novel makes clear.
Anakin's cyborg arm and enormous force reserves however make him stronger and give him a better stamina. However Obi-Wan's defensive style does help in negating those advantages of Skywalker's.
But all those advantages do make Skywalker the more powerful Jedi than Kenobi and the and more dangerous foe for other opponents. Just ask Asajj Ventress or Count Dooku.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He can obviously tank Force TK hits better than Dooku can. Hence why Count Dooku consistently struggles to defeat Anakin even though he can take Obi-Wan out pretty easily with the Force.Hey? When did I concede that? Kenobi is not superior in swordplay. They're dead even in Saber "Skills" as the novel makes clear.
Anakin's cyborg arm and enormous force reserves however make him stronger and give him a better stamina. However Obi-Wan's defensive style does help in negating those advantages of Skywalker's.
But all those advantages do make Skywalker the more powerful Jedi than Kenobi and the and more dangerous foe for other opponents. Just ask Asajj Ventress or Count Dooku.
Point is, for all this talk about how superios Anakin is with the force and how much stronger his force powers are.. In the HIGHEST form of canon.. he was unable to can any force power advantage.. and actually it ended in a stalemate. So that is what I'm referring to with my post. Anakin didn't prove to be superior in force powers in ROTS. Period. Now, one might say he's supeiro in defending against the force.. but that is all conjecture... I don't remember dooku ever trying a force move on Anakin.. so if he didn't.. how do we know he's even superior in that regard?
Ummm actually you did... You first claimed Kenobi didn't beat Anakin in swordplay... you went on and on about how it was something other than sword play. When in fact, it was EXACTLY sword play and there is no getting around that. Anakin made an offensive move to close the distance.. swung his saber at kenobi... kenobi promptly the strike and countered with his own dismembering Anakin. That is nothing other than sword play.
That's no excuse for not being able to attack well. We know very well he is at least proficient at Ataro, possibly even a master of the style.
Yeah except it was clearly more than just his style. Because Dooku is specifically astonished at just how powerful Skywalker's blows are.That doesn't prove anything. Kenobi stalemated both Maul and Opress together in one Saber Lock. You don't honestly think that means Kenobi is as strong as both of them together??
Ventress has also been in a direct saber lock with Opress. That also doesn't mean she's just as strong as him.
But when Skywalker is forcing Dooku/Kenobi backwards so much and Dooku specifically notes he's really struggling handling Skywalker's strength, then that should be more than enough evidence that Skywalker is considerably stronger.
I know your going to say it's just Kenobi's style to give ground. Well I think your putting to much emphasis on styles there. Kenobi doesn't usually give That Much Ground. Which the script specifically notes due to him being Forced Backwards by Skywalker.
Your putting too much emphasis on that one scene, where Anakin had no idea who he was fighting. It is pretty difficult to break out of a hold like that. Your saying it as if it was an arm wrestle Obi-Wan beat him in or something.
Skywalker not only has a Cyborg Arm which can go toe to toe with an IG-88 Assassin droid in strength, but he has ridiculous force reserves which only make him stronger as the fight goes on.
And he was also getting driven back by Skywalker for the majority of the fight, even before Anakin unleashed his full rage.I've already explained how Jedi/Sith can stalemate a Saber lock now and again against a Stronger Opponent. But if Kenobi was almost as Strong as Skywalker he wouldn't have needed to back off to the extent he was doing the enitre fight.
You can tell when they're talking. Obi-Wan is puffing and panting while he's talking. Whilst Anakin is talking a lot more calmly. It seems clear to me Kenobi was more tired. Anakin not as much. Although he was getting frustrated.
Second, breathing doesn't necessary mean that Kenobi is close to being Force exhausted. Heavy breathing is effect of physical exercise, which Force users can calm with use of Force, if they want. It may well be that he just chose not to use Force and let his breathing calm naturally as he is not fighting anyway.
Remember they were battling many droids before they even reached Dooku and Palpatine.
I agree if they had equal strength and equal reserves that Kenobi would obviously outlast Skywalker due to his defensive nature.However Skywalker has specifically been noted to have ridiculous reserves. And has only ever been noted as getting stronger.
I admit Kenobi's own reserves and defensive nature will help him to last a long time, (as he did in ROTS) but I see no reason to believe that the difference in styles used will fully compensate for the enormous difference in Force Reserves especially when the Script has specifically noted Kenobi to tire before Skywalker, which you chose to ignore because it doesn't make sense to you.Well it doesn't make sense to me how Kenobi could get tossed around so easily if he wasn't at least tiring.
Also I think you maybe overestimating how easily a Djem So user tires. Djem So also uses an opponents strength against them then follows up with their own strength to continue. It has Soresu incorporated as it's foundation. Kind of like how Shien delfects blaster bolts back to it's source.
Could it be that Luke tired more easily as he aged??Getting exhausted for the first time in a huge battle like that is pretty impressive.
And btw, Anakin most likely had even greater force reserves that Luke.
Also, I don't think that Anakin's reserves were as large as Luke's or even Marek's because he never strained his limits like them. For example, in the middle of Yuuzhan Vong war Luke produced illusion of Mara's ship and it strained him so much that his face wrinkled like Palpatine's. During swarm war he replicated this feat with much less problems.
Urmm maybe because the script notes Kenobi tiring??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do you guys honestly think Kenobi losing to Dooku was just a result of a clash of styles??
No buddy, we've been over this before as well. I believe Kenobi would beat Dooku in a sabers only fight but obviously lose in a force powers fight. What I was referring to when I made said statement was that Kenobi is better suited to deal with Anakin than a weakened dooku. Shit even better than a normal dooku. That is what I meant by that.
What I was referring to when I made said statement was that Kenobi is better suited to deal with Anakin than a weakened dooku. Shit even better than a normal dooku. That is what I meant by that.
Dooku with his style gets tired much faster. However, his style is designed to outskill, which gives him much better chance to win than to Kenobi before he gets tired.
So no, the whole credit goes to Kenobi because he was skilled enough to counter every single attack of Anakin. Also, defensive styles are much harder to master than offensive.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point is, for all this talk about how superios Anakin is with the force and how much stronger his force powers are.. In the HIGHEST form of canon.. he was unable to can any force power advantage.. and actually it ended in a stalemate. So that is what I'm referring to with my post. Anakin didn't prove to be superior in force powers in ROTS. Period. Now, one might say he's supeiro in defending against the force.. but that is all conjecture... I don't remember dooku ever trying a force move on Anakin.. so if he didn't.. how do we know he's even superior in that regard?
Force attacks and natural force defenses are not the same thing. Just because Anakin's force push equaled Obi-Wan's does not mean Obi-Wan can tank force attacks as well as Anakin can.
Hence why Count Dooku has never been able to dispose of Anakin easily with the Force.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm actually you did... You first claimed Kenobi didn't beat Anakin in swordplay... you went on and on about how it was something other than sword play. When in fact, it was EXACTLY sword play and there is no getting around that. Anakin made an offensive move to close the distance.. swung his saber at kenobi... kenobi promptly the strike and countered with his own dismembering Anakin. That is nothing other than sword play.
They're equal in sword fighting skills. That's a canon fact.
We've been over this. That jump was nothing to do with sword fighting. Was that a Djem So or a Soresu move?? Neither actually. It was a tactically stupid and out of character move. Hell Obi-Wan himself says "Don't make such a stupid move!"
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No buddy, we've been over this before as well. I believe Kenobi would beat Dooku in a sabers only fight but obviously lose in a force powers fight.
And what about in an all out??
Because Anakin beat Dooku in an all out.
Originally posted by ArhaelYes, I choose to ignore that Kenobi could get tired after killing few droids and doing few weak attacks on Dooku. Kenobi's prolonged fight with Anakin tramps whatever effort he put against those droids
We know very well Jedi can get tired and then revitalize themselves. We don't even know how long Anakin and Obi-Wan were fighting for before they encountered Dooku. There are deleted scenes from that part of the movie.
But the fact is Obi-Wan and Anakin had both been fighting for just as long. And yet the script specifically notes as the fight with Dooku begins it's Obi-Wan who tires while simultaneously Anakin who gets more powerful.
Originally posted by Arhael
and he was still able to anticipate and stalemate Anakin's TK. To me it makes sense that Dooku was tossing Kenobi around. Dooku handled and disarmed Ventress with TK and she herself has feats of Force handling Anakin and Kenobi. It makes total sense that Dooku's TK IS THAT good.
You know very well (because you've argued it before) that Dooku's Force TK really couldn't do squat to Anakin in "Crisis on Naboo.."
The only possible explanation is Anakin's Force Reserves allow him to tank TK hits far better than Obi-Wan can.
Anakin gets more powerful season by season and he holds back with Kenobi there, so I wouldn't count too much on what an enraged Ventress did to them both with Force TK when they could have easily killed or stabbed her but gave her a chance to surrender.
Heck she was disarmed in the first place because Obi-Wan force pushed her.
Originally posted by Arhael
Scripts states that Kenobi is tired as "the battle proceeds", which mean he got tired during fight with Dooku. There is no way those few probing strikes at Dooku would get him tired. Film overwrites that script part like in many other cases.
See above. They were fighting before they met Dooku. Plus Kenobi probably could have still revitalized himself a few times. But point is he got tired before Anakin did.
There's no contradiction with the film. That scene from the script is exactly the same as what happens in the film. And the prolonged fight between them is also in the script.
Originally posted by ArhaelSo no, the whole credit goes to Kenobi because he was skilled enough to counter every single attack of Anakin. Also, defensive styles are much harder to master than offensive.
It was the same the other way around. Kenobi couldn't get past Anakin's defenses either in a straight up sword fight.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now, one might say he's supeiro in defending against the force.. but that is all conjecture... I don't remember dooku ever trying a force move on Anakin.. so if he didn't.. how do we know he's even superior in that regard?
Missed this point the first time. Dooku does hit Anakin with the Force not only many times in the CW series, but also in the CW movie, which is an actual Star Wars movie (believe it or not), so almost just as canon as ROTS.
ROTS doesn't even contradict the CW fight so there's actually no reason at all to ignore it.
I've noticed the Obi-Wan camp here are ignoring all of Anakin's Clone War fights against Dooku and ignoring the fact that Anakin was Dooku's superior in an all out, whilst Dooku was Obi-Wan's superior in an all out.
Some people are putting that down to a clash of styles, but I don't see how Force Throwing Obi-Wan has anything to do with their respective combat styles.
Other people are putting it down to Dooku being tired. Well he wasn't tired in the CW Movie and was still struggling to defeat Anakin.
Also his tiring is noted in the novel at least to be all down to Anakin anyway, and having very little to do with Obi-Wan.
The Obi-Wan camp need to address the above points without ignoring them. Because it seems every time we reach this point of the debate the Obi-Wan camp go back to the beginning and we go around in circles.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Force attacks and natural force defenses are not the same thing. Just because Anakin's force push equaled Obi-Wan's does not mean Obi-Wan can tank force attacks as well as Anakin can.Hence why Count Dooku has never been able to dispose of Anakin easily with the Force.
They're equal in sword fighting skills. That's a canon fact.
We've been over this. That jump was nothing to do with sword fighting. Was that a Djem So or a Soresu move?? Neither actually. It was a tactically stupid and out of character move. Hell Obi-Wan himself says "Don't make such a stupid move!"
And what about in an all out??
Because Anakin beat Dooku in an all out.
This is the problem though... WHEN in the highest form of canon did Dooku TRY any offensive force powers on Anakin? It didn't exist.. he ONLY tried them on Kenobi. So.. that isi what I mean by conjecture that he could handle them better as in the highest form of canon he doesn't even try any force powers on Anakin.
Now in the CW series... which scenes are you referring to which Anakin deal with Dooku's force powers and has no trouble dealing with them?
Here we go again.. The jump doesn't matter.. He could've closed the distance on foot before strking. Yet, we don't go.. well he ran to Kenobi to strike him.. thus that wasn't swordplay... NO... It's still swordplay. The jump doesn't matter. He JUMPED TO CLOSE THE DISTANCE TO STRIKE KENOBI DOWN WITH HIS SWORD. You might have a point.. and even then it would be on shaky ground... IF Anakin didn't even swing his saber and just got cut in half jumping. Yet, that isn't the case. He tried to strike kenobi down.. swung his saber.. WAS BLOCKED and COUNTERED. That is the definition of swordplay. Still waiting for a concession that Aankin lost in swordplay....
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Missed this point the first time. Dooku does hit Anakin with the Force not only many times in the CW series, but also in the CW movie, which is an actual Star Wars movie (believe it or not), so almost just as canon as ROTS.ROTS doesn't even contradict the CW fight so there's actually no reason at all to ignore it.
I've noticed the Obi-Wan camp here are ignoring all of Anakin's Clone War fights against Dooku and ignoring the fact that Anakin was Dooku's superior in an all out, whilst Dooku was Obi-Wan's superior in an all out.
Some people are putting that down to a clash of styles, but I don't see how Force Throwing Obi-Wan has anything to do with their respective combat styles.
Other people are putting it down to Dooku being tired. Well he wasn't tired in the CW Movie and was still struggling to defeat Anakin.
Also his tiring is noted in the novel at least to be all down to Anakin anyway, and having very little to do with Obi-Wan.
The Obi-Wan camp need to address the above points without ignoring them. Because it seems every time we reach this point of the debate the Obi-Wan camp go back to the beginning and we go around in circles.
You just documented how it's possible to be a style vs. style thing...
If Kenobi is in fact inferior to Anakin in defense against force powers.. Than Dooku would have a much easier time all out against Kenobi than Anakin. On the contrary... Anakin's force powers aren't as good as dooku's and are about on par with Kenobi's at that point in their careers. So Anakin can't gain the same advantage on Kenobi that Dooku could.. he instead must cut him down with his saber.. Yet, being that kenobi is so adept at swordplay.. this is no easy task and why style's and abilities makes fights. Okay that one was answered... next
You keep acting like Anakin beat Dooku in the CW series.. HE DIDN'T. At NO point did he beat Dooku in the CW series.. So... I have no clue what your point is here. Because Anakin should a better resisitance to force powers.. Okay... See above.. style makes fights... Just because Anakin can do better agaisnt Dooku doesn't mean he can beat Kenobi. Just cause JMM can wtf pac.. doesn't mean Money May can WTF Pac.. or conversely... just because JMM can beat Pac.. doesn't mean he can beat May.. style style style... Next...
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do you guys honestly think Kenobi losing to Dooku was just a result of a clash of styles??
Hmm hard to say. Soresu is much better suited against Djem So than Makashi as far as "weathering the storm" goes, which is a principle tactic of Soresu, whereas Makashi has a weakness to explosive swordplay, which is what Djem So is all about. Makashi is overall superior 10n1 duelling form to Soresu and it possesses no weakness to it. So we have situation of Makashi>Soresu~Djem So~Makashi.
However, when Dooku overpowered Obi-Wan it was through use of the Force during saber battle, he maybe straight overpowered him, maybe he set up the force attack with strikes, but it wasnt just with sabers. Plus, he overpowered both of them at the same time, and chose to remove Obi-Wan from the contest first, he could have very easily done the same to Anakin probably if he attacked him first instead. Anakin and Obi-Wan are roughyl at smae level in force powers, as hence form their force staelmate during their battle in RotS.
Plus, there is very real possibility that Dooku was going easy on Anakin, hence as it seems that he was overall better than Anakin maybe and Sidious was using the encounter to turn Anakin to the darkside.