ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why am I suppose to be overly impressed by Anakin not getting KO'd but managing to fight on against dooku yet STILL NOT WIN?

He actually looked like was going to win in "Crisis on Naboo," but Dooku ran away.

In the fight before that he failed to defeat Dooku who had the aid of 4 Magnaguards!

Anyway the reason it should impress you is because consistently stalemating Count Dooku in an all out is clearly beyond Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why... just becaues he wasn't KO'd like the one time Kenobi was? I'm sorry I'm just not as impressed by this as you. Kenobi has also shown not to be taken out by the force in the CW series as well... how does that factor in?

When has Kenobi shown Not to be taken out by the Force?? Most recently Maul KO'd him with the Force. And Dooku's above Maul in use of the Force.

Point is Dooku hit Anakin with the Force several times but wasn't able to take him out. He even gave him a full on Force TK plus Force Lightning Blow, and Even That didn't KO him (although that one came close).

It just 2 Force TK hits from Dooku to KO Obi-Wan and that was while fighting off another opponent.

So yes you should be a heck of a lot more impressed by Anakin's fights against Count Dooku as compared to Obi-Wan's attempts.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It wasn't just Yoda fighting that way.. it's a common theme throughout Jedi fights.... Maul was shown jumping around in his fights with Obi and Qui-Gon.. Shit Qui-Gon is even shown doing to jumping in his first meeting with maul... Shit the first move the Emperor makes to slay the 3 masters WAS A JUMP!! This is a common occurance in many jedi fights throughout the mythos.. let's not pretend that a jump means it's not swordplay. Jumping and striking is a common occurance and IS SWORDPLAY. Anakin jumped.. closed the distance... struck Kenobi... Kenobi blocked the strike and countered with his own. PERIOD. I'm still waiting for a concession on this point. You act like a jump during a sword fight means it negates it being a sword fight... That is some desperate reaching on your part. Still waiting on that....

Why would I conceded on a point that Obi-Wan himself agrees on. A jump to a higher ground was a suicide move as Obi-Wan Pointed out himself!

Why the heck would I concede to a point that Obi-Wan himself agrees with!

Even when Yoda made a jump from one platform to another specifically to close the distance he was quickly disarmed by Sidious. And no one leaps as much as Yoda does.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Err you forgot to mention that Kenobi was doing JUST FINE against Maul in swordplay... He actually partially DISARMED maul in swordplay. Maul wasn't getting the better of Kenobi in swords and only got the advantage he did VIA THE FORCE. Seems like a common theme eh? So where are you getting this notion that Maul was so superior to kenobi in swordplay? It wasn't shown at all in fact. He was superior in the force.. that is all that was shown.

Rigggghhhht. So all this time you go on about how Anakin didn't beat Dooku in a fair fight because he was so tired from fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan together for like 10+ seconds, but when MAUL WAS FIGHTING 2 JEDI SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR MINUTES ON END then you decide to just ignore what happened previously.

No I'm sorry KT, I'm not letting you get away with that one.

Dooku fought them both for seconds, then Skywalker took him out in a straight up one on one duel and didn't even give him a chance to use his superior force powers on him.

Maul was matching both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together for a good few minutes, then fought Qui-Gon one one one because he temporarily disposed of Obi-Wan (Obi-Wan would have clearly been dead on his own at that point) then he fights an Enraged Obi-Wan who had been out of the fight for a good while. Fought him one on one and the Enraged Obi-Wan still couldn't defeat him in a straight up fight! And still ended up disarmed of his weapon and thrown down a shaft. He had to surprise him with Qui-Gon's weapon.

That's the second time in the fight it was clear that if Qui-Gon wasn't there then Obi-Wan would have been DEAD!

So of course TPM Maul was >>> TPM Obi-Wan.

Again KT, if Obi-Wan was a superior swordsman to Anakin he would have beat him in the straight up sword fight. Just like Anakin beat Dooku, like Mace beat Sidious and like Maul beat Qui-Gon.

The whole high ground thing against Anakin and Surprise Lightsaber attack against Maul was to show us Obi-Wan couldn't beat those opponents in a straight up fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again... because Kenobi keeps his cool and is level headed throughout fights you act like this isn't an advantage that could get his victories.. that is EXACTLY what it was shown to do in the highest form of canon. He keep his cool head against Maul and Anakin and both times he overcame them.. Yet that is a big advantage... I would say even bigger then I'm better at tanking force attacks (anakin) that you keep going on and on about.

This I agree with. Obi-Wan does keep his cool and that does benefit him in fights.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again... Kenobi has been shown to be ventress superior in the CW series as well. Why do you keep forgetting this point? You act like Anakin is the only one who does good against Ventress and that just isn't true. The fact remains that Kenobi has MORE IMPRESSIVE victories than Anakin has. Kenobi has been Maul, The General, Anakin, Ventress, Savage/Opress etc... This is more than Anakin record reflects.

Ventress has KO'd Kenobi once. She's never beaten Skywalker.

Beating Opress was impressive, but it's nothing that puts him above Skywalker. It also doesn't help Kenobi's case that Opress has beaten him in the past. Whilst Skywalker consistently stalemates Count Dooku.

And Count Dooku is much more powerful than Ventress, Maul or Opress anyway.

So Anakin's feats are far superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He actually looked like was going to win in "Crisis on Naboo," but Dooku ran away.

In the fight before that he failed to defeat Dooku who had the aid of 4 Magnaguards!

Anyway the reason it should impress you is because consistently stalemating Count Dooku in an all out is clearly beyond Kenobi.

When has Kenobi shown Not to be taken out by the Force?? Most recently Maul KO'd him with the Force. And Dooku's above Maul in use of the Force.

Point is Dooku hit Anakin with the Force several times but wasn't able to take him out. He even gave him a full on Force TK plus Force Lightning Blow, and Even That didn't KO him (although that one came close).

It just 2 Force TK hits from Dooku to KO Obi-Wan and that was while fighting off another opponent.

So yes you should be a heck of a lot more impressed by Anakin's fights against Count Dooku as compared to Obi-Wan's attempts.

Why would I conceded on a point that Obi-Wan himself agrees on. A jump to a higher ground was a suicide move as Obi-Wan Pointed out himself!

Why the heck would I concede to a point that Obi-Wan himself agrees with!

Even when Yoda made a jump from one platform to another specifically to close the distance he was quickly disarmed by Sidious. And no one leaps as much as Yoda does.

Rigggghhhht. So all this time you go on about how Anakin didn't beat Dooku in a fair fight because he was so tired from fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan together for like 10+ seconds, but when MAUL WAS FIGHTING 2 JEDI SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR MINUTES ON END then you decide to just ignore what happened previously.

No I'm sorry KT, I'm not letting you get away with that one.

Dooku fought them both for seconds, then Skywalker took him out in a straight up one on one duel and didn't even give him a chance to use his superior force powers on him.

Maul was matching both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together for a good few minutes, then fought Qui-Gon one one one because he temporarily disposed of Obi-Wan (Obi-Wan would have clearly been dead on his own at that point) then he fights an Enraged Obi-Wan who had been out of the fight for a good while. Fought him one on one and the Enraged Obi-Wan still couldn't defeat him in a straight up fight! And still ended up disarmed of his weapon and thrown down a shaft. He had to surprise him with Qui-Gon's weapon.

That's the second time in the fight it was clear that if Qui-Gon wasn't there then Obi-Wan would have been DEAD!

So of course TPM Maul was >>> TPM Obi-Wan.

Again KT, if Obi-Wan was a superior swordsman to Anakin he would have beat him in the straight up sword fight. Just like Anakin beat Dooku, like Mace beat Sidious and like Maul beat Qui-Gon.

The whole high ground thing against Anakin and Surprise Lightsaber attack against Maul was to show us Obi-Wan couldn't beat those opponents in a straight up fight.

This I agree with. Obi-Wan does keep his cool and that does benefit him in fights.

Ventress has KO'd Kenobi once. She's never beaten Skywalker.

Beating Opress was impressive, but it's nothing that puts him above Skywalker. It also doesn't help Kenobi's case that Opress has beaten him in the past. Whilst Skywalker consistently stalemates Count Dooku.

And Count Dooku is much more powerful than Ventress, Maul or Opress anyway.

So Anakin's feats are far superior.

Thing is... Dooku has hit kenobi with force attacks that haven't KO'd him as well. Also, it wasn't just a TK attack that KO'd kenobi.. he has a landing dropped on him.. Kinda think that would've KO'd Anakin as well. Either way, I agree Anakin prob has better TK resistance... problem is... that wouldn't matter against Kenobi as he won't try it or use that to beat Anakin anyways.

Point me to the line where Kenobi denies it's swordplay? It doesn't exist, so I'm not sure your point here. The argument ISN'T was that a stupid move on Anakin's part... The argument IS... Did Kenobi beat Anakin in swordplay.. and THIS is the point you need to concede. A SABER strike was thrown... blocked... and countered with a strike from Kenobi... IS THAT SWORDPLAY or not. Just because there was a jump to close the distance doesn't mean it wasn't swordplay. Jumps ROUTINELY happen in saber combat.. BY YOUR THEORY.. that means it's not swordplay the minute somebody jumps during a fight.. Are you still holding on to this laughable and reaching theory or will you concede the point now? Yoda uses jumps all the time... So has Dooku.. So has Anakin.. So has Maul.. So has Kenobi.. so has Sids... This HAPPENS ALL THE TIME AND DOESN'T MEAN it's not swordplay.

YOu point about yoda being disarmed, is well, pointless. The jump had nothing to do with him being disarmed or point to the narration that says this. He could've been disarmed the same one if he was on the ground.. The lighting struck the saber out of his hand.. period.. nothing about that means it could only happen during a jump.

You keep bringing up Maul and Kenobi as if he lost.. He in fact WON. He also looked very good in the swords portion of the fight.. IN FACT HE DISARMED PART OF MAUL'S WEAPON DURING THE SABER BATTLE. You act like Maul only lost becaue he was arrogant. Not true.. yes that played a part.. but Kenobi was doing very well in that fight regardless of the end of the fight. Okay.. so you concede that Dooku was weakened THE ONLY TIME Anakin beat him and I'll concede Maul was weakened when Kenobi did. Problem is, one has canon narration saying Dooku was tired from fighting both.. the other.. there is NO narration stating Dooku was tired.

How on God's green earth would you say Anakin has the more impressive wins... Kenobi has Mau with contextl, The General, Anakin, Opress and Ventress? Anakin has Dooku wth context... So where do you get this notion that Anakin has superior feats.. that is totally and completly false.. In fact, Kenobi has the better combat feats.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Not really, Anakin just made a dumb mistake, he could've beaten Obi-Wan.

Just stop.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He can.

You don't provide convincing rebuttals, so what did you expect?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah. Someone's mother being murdered tends to put a man in a state they wouldn't normally be in.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually it's you who can't think out of the box. Kenobi's plan would have helped the survivors for another day. By not taking advantage of such an opportunity in hand (cloaked ship in the hands of the Order's best pilot) it was really Kenobi who was putting all those lives at risk.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker was a frustrated Padawan at the time. And there was the possibility that Padme had just been killed by Dooku's forces

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But as a Knight under more normal circumstances what does Anakin respond to Obi-Wan's remark in ROTS: "Together this time.."

Oh that's right.. He very calmy says "I was just about to say so.."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you can't give me even one example of Kenobi clearly being smarter than JEDI KNIGHT Anakin. Because there are none.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Note I said JEDI KNIGHT Anakin. Not Padawan Anakin or Sith Anakin, but Jedi Knight Anakin!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You clearly don't know much about Skywalker then.

I'm not even denying Obi-Wan's smart. He is supposedly the smartest Master on the Council. But if you weren't so biased and knew more about Anakin you would know he even smarter than Kenobi.

I know enough about both to realise that Obi Wan is more intelligent.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How did you get Obi-Wan is superior from what I said 😕

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does being stronger make someone Inferior?? It can only be an advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who can Obi-Wan beat that Anakin can't??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's 2 opponents right there that Anakin consistently performs better against than Obi-Wan. When does it happen the other way around.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even if I agree that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equals when fighting each other, the fact is one of those equals can beat powerhouses like Count Dooku. The other one can't. So which of the 2 is superior??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[BIt's the guy who consistently beats everyone who is superior. Just like in sports. Just because Bangladesh has been known to beat Pakistan and England has been known to beat Australia (cricket) does not make Bangladesh and England better than Pakistan and Australia.

It's the teams who consistently match or defeat the most number of teams who are the superior teams. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You don't provide convincing rebuttals, so what did you expect?

And you're the one who refuses to accept the novel's statements as canon, so why should I bother giving details?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Thing is... Dooku has hit kenobi with force attacks that haven't KO'd him as well. Also, it wasn't just a TK attack that KO'd kenobi.. he has a landing dropped on him.. Kinda think that would've KO'd Anakin as well.

Kenobi was KO'd before the landing was dropped on him. And he was being levitated while disarmed and choked so was easily defeated. And it was only Dooku's second attack on him. His first force attack on him that your saying didn't KO him floored him easily.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Either way, I agree Anakin prob has better TK resistance... problem is... that wouldn't matter against Kenobi as he won't try it or use that to beat Anakin anyways.

I've agreed Anakin has a harder time against Kenobi. I believe the "clash of styles" is between Anakin and Kenobi. They seem to be pretty even when fighting each other because they are equally skilled, and Kenobi's defensive style seems to somewhat neagte Anakin's Power advantage.

But the fact is Anakin IS more powerful. He is stronger, has greater force reserves and can tank force attacks better. Which is why he can take opponents Kenobi never could and why he IS a superior combatant to Kenobi regardless of them seeming to be equals when fighting each other.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point me to the line where Kenobi denies it's swordplay? It doesn't exist, so I'm not sure your point here. The argument ISN'T was that a stupid move on Anakin's part... The argument IS... Did Kenobi beat Anakin in swordplay.. and THIS is the point you need to concede. A SABER strike was thrown... blocked... and countered with a strike from Kenobi... IS THAT SWORDPLAY or not. Just because there was a jump to close the distance doesn't mean it wasn't swordplay. Jumps ROUTINELY happen in saber combat.. BY YOUR THEORY.. that means it's not swordplay the minute somebody jumps during a fight.. Are you still holding on to this laughable and reaching theory or will you concede the point now? Yoda uses jumps all the time... So has Dooku.. So has Anakin.. So has Maul.. So has Kenobi.. so has Sids... This HAPPENS ALL THE TIME AND DOESN'T MEAN it's not swordplay.

Jumps happen routinely. But not stupid suicide jumps. Kenobi said it himself that it's not a jump he can make. I don't see why your disagreeing with Obi-Wan himself. It was a tactically stupid move to make. That's all. It had nothing to do with Kenobi being superior at using a Saber. Heck he's not even superior at jumping.

Like I said if Lucas wanted to show Kenobi beating Anakin in a straight up sword fight, then that's exactly what Lucas would have done. Just like he showed Mace beating Sidious, Maul beating Qui-Gon and Anakin beating Dooku. ALL IN A STRAIGHT UP SOWRD FIGHT. No need at all to show one of them being surprised that the other has a weapon, or one of them having to make a stupid suicide leap to lose.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOu point about yoda being disarmed, is well, pointless. The jump had nothing to do with him being disarmed or point to the narration that says this. He could've been disarmed the same one if he was on the ground.. The lighting struck the saber out of his hand.. period.. nothing about that means it could only happen during a jump.

Yeah because it's so easy to disarm Yoda right? Jeez I wonder why the Emperor didn't just do that in the first place??

Yoda can easily deflect Force Lightning with his Saber. Heck he can even deflect it with his hands.

The point is Yoda jumps a lot, but the one time he had to make a large leap from one platform to another just to close the distance he was disarmed quite easily.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep bringing up Maul and Kenobi as if he lost.. He in fact WON. He also looked very good in the swords portion of the fight.. IN FACT HE DISARMED PART OF MAUL'S WEAPON DURING THE SABER BATTLE.

Yeah let's just ignore that Maul kicked Obi-Wan 3 stories down completely disarming him of his weapon. But lucky for Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon was there to save his butt.

Oh but Obi-Wan PARTIALLY disarmed Maul after Maul had fought both of them disposed of Obi-Wan from the fight then killed Obi-Wan's Master. Yeah great.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You act like Maul only lost becaue he was arrogant. Not true.. yes that played a part.. but Kenobi was doing very well in that fight regardless of the end of the fight.

Yeah of course he was. That's why he let his Master die. 😕

Obi-Wan Coudln't help Qui-Gon because he COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH THE FIGHT.

Also just the fact that the final move involved Qui-Gon's weapon is enough proof he could not have won without Qui-Gon being there.

That and the fact that Maul disposed of Obi-Wan much earlier on in the fight, and NEEDED Qui-Gon to fight on for him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay.. so you concede that Dooku was weakened THE ONLY TIME Anakin beat him and I'll concede Maul was weakened when Kenobi did.

LOL Maul should have been substantially more weakened looking at the lengths of the fights. Not that it matters because A WEAKER Anakin consistently stalemates Count Dooku in the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Problem is, one has canon narration saying Dooku was tired from fighting both.. the other.. there is NO narration stating Dooku was tired.

Just so you know the canon narration for TPM makes it perfectly clear that Maul was easily a match for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined, possibly superior to both combined!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How on God's green earth would you say Anakin has the more impressive wins... Kenobi has Mau with contextl, The General, Anakin, Opress and Ventress? Anakin has Dooku wth context... So where do you get this notion that Anakin has superior feats.. that is totally and completly false.. In fact, Kenobi has the better combat feats.

😕

Ventress and Opress have both also defeated Obi-Wan. He didn't defeat Maul on his own. He required Qui-Gon to be there.

Anakin has never lost to Ventress. The General is lame now. Skywalker would destroy him.

None of these compare though to consistently stalemating Count Dooku, who disposes of Kenobi with total ease.

I'm afraid overall when looking at all their fights, Skywalker is Superior to Kenobi. And by a significant margin.

Originally posted by mnat801
Depends. Not everyone would do what Anakin did.

Doesn't really matter how different people react to the mother's being murdered. Point is that's not under normal circumstances.

And for GOD's SAKE "That was PADAWAN ANAKIN!

Originally posted by mnat801
Kenobi never put their lives at risk! The cloaked ship was meant to ship supplies to the planet undetected, so the only person putting their lives at risk was Anakin, due to the fact that if he failed, there would be chance of shipping supplies.

Actually he did. Those supplies only would have lasted a short while. But the system would have remained under the Confederacy.

Originally posted by mnat801
Well whether he was frustated at the time or not, he still makes silly choices.

Was a Padawan at the time. What don't you understand?!

Originally posted by mnat801
Yeah Obi Wan STILL needs to remind him.

That was the point. He didn't.

Originally posted by mnat801
You obviously missed a couple of examples I gave you then. plus there's so many examples, I just don't have the time. Its just in Kenobi's nature to be smarter than Anakin, this should be obvious in the films and the clone wars series. But obviously even these wouldn't convince you.

You've not given ANY Examples proving Kenobi to be smarter than Jedi Knight Skywalker.

And you can't provide any. It's not because you can't be bothered. It's simply because they don't exist.

I on the other hand have shown mutiple examples of Skywalker being smarter. The Clone Wars is fukk of examples.

Originally posted by mnat801
Wow so your telling me any examples to do with padawan or sith anakin doesn't count. That's pathetic, you need to realise status doesn't change the fact that its the same person.

Oh so I guess we should use 9 year old Anakin from TPM to judge how Darth Vader would act right?? Because end of the day THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON!

Don't be dense! People can change tremendously throughout their lives. And someone whose just changed his whole life mission and philosophy from Knight to Sith will obviously behave completely differently.

I mean jeez your acting as if there's no difference mentally between a Padawan and a Knight! What Star Wars have you been watching all this time?

Originally posted by mnat801
I'm not denying that Anakin's smart.

I know enough about both to realise that Obi Wan is more intelligent.

Anakin's smarter. But if you accept Anakin's smart then you should accept it wasn't normal for Anakin to make a dumb suicide move.

Originally posted by mnat801
You have a point here, but what im trying to get across is that if you face someone yourself, its irrelevent of what's happened elsewhere, but what counts is beating that opponent.

I've already admitted Skywalker has a harder time against Kenobi than other opponents. But still overall looking at who they can beat Skywalker is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by mnat801
Consistently? Obi Wan was only able to take on Dooku twice, compared to Anakin's 7 or 8 times.

7 or 8 times?! Do you have trouble counting??

5 times they've fought by my count. And THE ONLY TIME Dooku beat Skywalker without help was when Anakin was a Padawan.

And saying Obi-Wan only fought Dooku twice is such a lame excuse for getting completely stomped by him both times. Skywalker did far far better against Dooku in their 2nd fight in the Clone War movie.

Originally posted by mnat801
And are you forgetting Obi Wan vs Ventress in th CW movie?! Obi Wan was playing with her.

But then she knocked him out quickly in "Nightsisters."

Originally posted by mnat801
Every other time, its been with Anakin, and they both had similiar difficulty with her. Its like one small ko (which i'd debate) that Ventress does to Kenobi, and automatically Anakin CONSISTENTLY does better than Obi Wan against Ventress.

Of course he does. Anakin's NEVER been KO'd by Ventress. He's never Lost to Ventress. Every time they fight Anakin's winning.

Originally posted by mnat801
The fact that Obi Wan defeats Sith Anakin cancels that out, at the minimum. Otherwise I would agree with you.

It all comes down to that One Stupid Plot Induces Suicide jump that Anakin made. Jedi Anakin wouldn't do that. And EVERYONE except you and KT knows it.

Originally posted by mnat801
Every sport is different, e.g the boxing example. Plus since we havn't any knowledge of Kenobi and Skywalker dueling each other all the time, we can't assume that's the case.

They spar in the comic Obsession. They seem pretty even. The ROTS novel itself says "Blade for blade they were identical. Like two halves of the same warrior"

In pretty much all sports the superior team/individual is the one who performs consistently against the best opponents.

Nothing will change that Anakin is superior Dooku and at least a match for Kenobi. And Anakin never loses to Ventress.

Whilst Kenobi can do well against Anakin but he is no match for Dooku and can lose to Ventress.

So clearly Anakin is the overall superior combatant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was KO'd before the landing was dropped on him. And he was being levitated while disarmed and choked so was easily defeated. And it was only Dooku's second attack on him. His first force attack on him that your saying didn't KO him floored him easily.

I've agreed Anakin has a harder time against Kenobi. I believe the "clash of styles" is between Anakin and Kenobi. They seem to be pretty even when fighting each other because they are equally skilled, and Kenobi's defensive style seems to somewhat neagte Anakin's Power advantage.

But the fact is Anakin IS more powerful. He is stronger, has greater force reserves and can tank force attacks better. Which is why he can take opponents Kenobi never could and why he IS a superior combatant to Kenobi regardless of them seeming to be equals when fighting each other.

Jumps happen routinely. But not stupid suicide jumps. Kenobi said it himself that it's not a jump he can make. I don't see why your disagreeing with Obi-Wan himself. It was a tactically stupid move to make. That's all. It had nothing to do with Kenobi being superior at using a Saber. Heck he's not even superior at jumping.

Like I said if Lucas wanted to show Kenobi beating Anakin in a straight up sword fight, then that's exactly what Lucas would have done. Just like he showed Mace beating Sidious, Maul beating Qui-Gon and Anakin beating Dooku. ALL IN A STRAIGHT UP SOWRD FIGHT. No need at all to show one of them being surprised that the other has a weapon, or one of them having to make a stupid suicide leap to lose.

Yeah because it's so easy to disarm Yoda right? Jeez I wonder why the Emperor didn't just do that in the first place??

Yoda can easily deflect Force Lightning with his Saber. Heck he can even deflect it with his hands.

The point is Yoda jumps a lot, but the one time he had to make a large leap from one platform to another just to close the distance he was disarmed quite easily.

Yeah let's just ignore that Maul kicked Obi-Wan 3 stories down completely disarming him of his weapon. But lucky for Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon was there to save his butt.

Oh but Obi-Wan PARTIALLY disarmed Maul after Maul had fought both of them disposed of Obi-Wan from the fight then killed Obi-Wan's Master. Yeah great.

Yeah of course he was. That's why he let his Master die. 😕

Obi-Wan Coudln't help Qui-Gon because he COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH THE FIGHT.

Also just the fact that the final move involved Qui-Gon's weapon is enough proof he could not have won without Qui-Gon being there.

That and the fact that Maul disposed of Obi-Wan much earlier on in the fight, and NEEDED Qui-Gon to fight on for him.

LOL Maul should have been substantially more weakened looking at the lengths of the fights. Not that it matters because A WEAKER Anakin consistently stalemates Count Dooku in the Clone Wars.

Just so you know the canon narration for TPM makes it perfectly clear that Maul was easily a match for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined, possibly superior to both combined!

😕

Ventress and Opress have both also defeated Obi-Wan. He didn't defeat Maul on his own. He required Qui-Gon to be there.

Anakin has never lost to Ventress. The General is lame now. Skywalker would destroy him.

None of these compare though to consistently stalemating Count Dooku, who disposes of Kenobi with total ease.

I'm afraid overall when looking at all their fights, Skywalker is Superior to Kenobi. And by a significant margin.

So what if it floored him..... Dooku Force Attacks have floored Anakin as well... So Dooku took out Kenobi with the force once.. YIPPY!!

You just sat there and listed things Anakin is superior in as if that means he's superior. The listing of attributes doesn't mean the whole is greater than the sum of parts. I could just as easily list that Kenobi is mentally stable, better defensively, calm under pressure, wiiser than Anakin etc etc.. Those don't mean he's better than Anakin.. just like the specific things you listed don't mean Anakin is better or will beat Kenobi.

I'm not disagreeing with Kenobi at all.. I'm waiting for a concession that Kenobi killed Anakin in swordplay. THAT is the concession I'm STILL waiting for. You can add whatever disclaimer you want about it being a stupid move blah blah blah.. but as long as you admit that when Kenobi strick down Anakin it was during swordplay.. then I'm fine with that.

What is confusing though.. is you can't see that scene for exactly what is was.... Kenobi BAITING Anakin to make that jump.. DARING him to make that jump.. Knowing full well Anakin doesn't like his power questioned and goading him to try something that most wouldn't normally try. how on earth you can't see that seen for what it is is beyond me. You act like Kenobi had an issue with killing Anakin.. He didn't.. that is why he was there.. to kill Anakin. You act like him baiting Anakin to make that jump means he didn't want him to.. no it means the exact opposite. He caused the opening to kill anakin by steering him into making a mistake. Using his arrogance against him ya kno, knowing him in and out like he does. This is an advantage that would reer it's ugly head EACH and every time they fight. You admit Anakin is known for making bold and rash moves.. but you justify it by saying.. he look it works out. Well... this time it didn't JUST LIKE IT HAS NUMEROUS TIMES BEFORE THERE. Ya know, when the movies and novels were making it clear over and over that Anakin is prone to makign such moves.. Guess what, he did so again... and did so.. thanks to Kenobi baiting him.

There are more than one way to skin a cat... There isn't only one way to win a fight. Just because lucas has some fights go this way.. doesn't mean if they don't go that way it means there was no superiority shown. Where on earth do you get that ham-handed line of thinking from? Yoda is Dooku's superior in swords.. yet he wasn't able to beat dooku in swords in the given amount of time. So under your theory that means he isn't supeiror cause if lucas wanted to show us that he would? NO that isn't what that means. You could be superior in swordplay and use a kick to KO your opponent.. what does that mean you're not superior in swordplay cause you used a kick.. WELCOME TO MOVIES AND PLOTS... One isn't mutually inclusive of the other.

The point you can't get around is that Kenobi was DOING JUST FINE IN SABER COMBAT ONE V ONE AGAINST MAUL. You act like he was dominated and it was lucky that he won. No, he was doing just fine and also won in the end. Things like arrogance... rash moves... insecurity... anger... all can play roles in your demise... Just like Anakin.. these things played a role in Kenobi gaining the upperhand and beating maul.. just like he did Anakin. That is why mental strength is just as important as physical tool... Ya know, the thing kenobi has in spades and both Maul and ANakin can't hold a candle to him in this regard.

The general isn't lame now.... despite him being watered down some... it has been made perfectly clear how dangerous a foe The General is.. Ya know, yet another victim of Kenobi.. ya know.. another victim that adds to a bigger and more extensive list of names Kenobi has beaten that Anakin hasn't. I have no clue how you can say Anakin has more impressive wins.. when really.. they aren't even close in this regard. Kenobi has beaten far better opposition.. INCLUDING ANAKIN HIMSELF. Yet somehow, Anakin has superior feats... WTF

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And you're the one who refuses to accept the novel's statements as canon, so why should I bother giving details?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So what if it floored him..... Dooku Force Attacks have floored Anakin as well... So Dooku took out Kenobi with the force once.. YIPPY!!

What?! He hit him Twice with the Force. The first time he got completely floored and the second time completely humiliated. I can't for the life of me see how you think that's not a big deal.

Fact that you and mnat801 find hard dealing with is that Obi-Wan was clearly outclassed by Dooku in an all out. Whilst Anakin was not.

The reason being is that Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You just sat there and listed things Anakin is superior in as if that means he's superior. The listing of attributes doesn't mean the whole is greater than the sum of parts. I could just as easily list that Kenobi is mentally stable, better defensively, calm under pressure, wiiser than Anakin etc etc.. Those don't mean he's better than Anakin.. just like the specific things you listed don't mean Anakin is better or will beat Kenobi.

Look they were fighting evenly (except that Anakin was stronger forcing Obi-Wan backwards). But the fact is against other opponents Anakin has proven he's superior.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm not disagreeing with Kenobi at all.. I'm waiting for a concession that Kenobi killed Anakin in swordplay. THAT is the concession I'm STILL waiting for. You can add whatever disclaimer you want about it being a stupid move blah blah blah.. but as long as you admit that when Kenobi strick down Anakin it was during swordplay.. then I'm fine with that.

If swordplay to you means they were both holding swords, then fine I'll concede if it gets you off this point.

But to me swordplay means direct Saber combat on even ground. Obi-Wan is not a superior swordsman to Anakin. And did not win due to superior swordplay.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What is confusing though.. is you can't see that scene for exactly what is was.... Kenobi BAITING Anakin to make that jump.. DARING him to make that jump.. Knowing full well Anakin doesn't like his power questioned and goading him to try something that most wouldn't normally try. how on earth you can't see that seen for what it is is beyond me. You act like Kenobi had an issue with killing Anakin.. He didn't.. that is why he was there.. to kill Anakin. You act like him baiting Anakin to make that jump means he didn't want him to.. no it means the exact opposite. He caused the opening to kill anakin by steering him into making a mistake. Using his arrogance against him ya kno, knowing him in and out like he does. This is an advantage that would reer it's ugly head EACH and every time they fight. You admit Anakin is known for making bold and rash moves.. but you justify it by saying.. he look it works out. Well... this time it didn't JUST LIKE IT HAS NUMEROUS TIMES BEFORE THERE. Ya know, when the movies and novels were making it clear over and over that Anakin is prone to makign such moves.. Guess what, he did so again... and did so.. thanks to Kenobi baiting him.

Give me just 1 Example of Anakin making such a move as a Jedi Knight.

And no Obi-Wan didn't want Anakin to make the jump. He begged him not to.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There are more than one way to skin a cat... There isn't only one way to win a fight. Just because lucas has some fights go this way.. doesn't mean if they don't go that way it means there was no superiority shown. Where on earth do you get that ham-handed line of thinking from? Yoda is Dooku's superior in swords.. yet he wasn't able to beat dooku in swords in the given amount of time. So under your theory that means he isn't supeiror cause if lucas wanted to show us that he would? NO that isn't what that means. You could be superior in swordplay and use a kick to KO your opponent.. what does that mean you're not superior in swordplay cause you used a kick.. WELCOME TO MOVIES AND PLOTS... One isn't mutually inclusive of the other.

Dooku ran away. That says a lot. Maul didn't run away from Obi-Wan. Nor did Anakin.

So again if they wanted to show Obi-Wan was straight up superior in a sword fight, then that's exactly what they would have done.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The point you can't get around is that Kenobi was DOING JUST FINE IN SABER COMBAT ONE V ONE AGAINST MAUL. You act like he was dominated and it was lucky that he won. No, he was doing just fine and also won in the end.

I thought you had conceded that Maul must have been tiring by that end fight with Obi-Wan?? And yet Obi-Wan still couldn't outfight him.

Doing just fine?? What are you talking about, he couldn't keep up with the fight. Hows that doing just fine. Without Qui-Gon there he'd be dead. And the fact that he used Qui-Gon's weapon to win in the end just makes that point even more clear.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The general isn't lame now.... despite him being watered down some... it has been made perfectly clear how dangerous a foe The General is.. Ya know, yet another victim of Kenobi.. ya know.. another victim that adds to a bigger and more extensive list of names Kenobi has beaten that Anakin hasn't. I have no clue how you can say Anakin has more impressive wins.. when really.. they aren't even close in this regard. Kenobi has beaten far better opposition.. INCLUDING ANAKIN HIMSELF. Yet somehow, Anakin has superior feats... WTF

You are kidding me right? I can think of 2 Jedi and One Sith Apprentice off the top off my head who have defeated the General and none of them are on Skywalker's level.

Heck Ashoka was stalemating the General recently.

Defeating Count Dooku (heck even consistently stalemating him) is above anyone Kenobi has ever defeated. What puts the Icing on the cake is Kenobi failed attempts at the Count.

Anakin history against Ventress is also superior to Kenobi's.

So basically the opponents they've both fought shows Anakin to be superior. Anakin can defeat anyone Obi-Wan can but the same can not be said Vice Versa. The reason is because Anakin is just as skilled a swordsman as Obi-Wan but he is CLEARLY MORE POWERFUL.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't really matter how different people react to the mother's being murdered. Point is that's not under normal circumstances.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And for GOD's SAKE "That was PADAWAN ANAKIN!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually he did. Those supplies only would have lasted a short while. But the system would have remained under the Confederacy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Was a Padawan at the time. What don't you understand?!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was the point. He didn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've not given ANY Examples proving Kenobi to be smarter than Jedi Knight Skywalker.

And you can't provide any. It's not because you can't be bothered. It's simply because they don't exist.

I on the other hand have shown mutiple examples of Skywalker being smarter. The Clone Wars is fukk of examples.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh so I guess we should use 9 year old Anakin from TPM to judge how Darth Vader would act right?? Because end of the day THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON!

Don't be dense! People can change tremendously throughout their lives. And someone whose just changed his whole life mission and philosophy from Knight to Sith will obviously behave completely differently.

I mean jeez your acting as if there's no difference mentally between a Padawan and a Knight! What Star Wars have you been watching all this time?[/B][/QUOTE] My examples from padawan Anakin are within a year from him becoming a knight. Yeah. Anakin changed tremendously. He went from jedi knight to Sith Lord. WHAT STAR WARS HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING!?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin's smarter. But if you accept Anakin's smart then you should accept it wasn't normal for Anakin to make a dumb suicide move.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've already admitted Skywalker has a harder time against Kenobi than other opponents. But still overall looking at who they can beat Skywalker is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
7 or 8 times?! Do you have trouble counting??

5 times they've fought by my count. And THE ONLY TIME Dooku beat Skywalker without help was when Anakin was a Padawan.

And saying Obi-Wan only fought Dooku twice is such a lame excuse for getting completely stomped by him both times. Skywalker did far far better against Dooku in their 2nd fight in the Clone War movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But then she knocked him out quickly in "Nightsisters."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course he does. Anakin's NEVER been KO'd by Ventress. He's never Lost to Ventress. Every time they fight Anakin's winning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It all comes down to that One Stupid Plot Induces Suicide jump that Anakin made. Jedi Anakin wouldn't do that. And EVERYONE except you and KT knows it.

And actually, theres many other people not using this site that could agree with me and KT.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They spar in the comic Obsession. They seem pretty even. The ROTS novel itself says "Blade for blade they were identical. Like two halves of the same warrior"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In pretty much all sports the superior team/individual is the one who performs consistently against the best opponents.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nothing will change that Anakin is superior Dooku and at least a match for Kenobi. And Anakin never loses to Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst Kenobi can do well against Anakin but he is no match for Dooku and can lose to Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So clearly Anakin is the overall superior combatant.

But I don't mind ending this debate with the conclusion that they are both evenly superior, and just make our opinions that either one is superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?! He hit him Twice with the Force. The first time he got completely floored and the second time completely humiliated. I can't for the life of me see how you think that's not a big deal.

Fact that you and mnat801 find hard dealing with is that Obi-Wan was clearly outclassed by Dooku in an all out. Whilst Anakin was not.

The reason being is that Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi.

Look they were fighting evenly (except that Anakin was stronger forcing Obi-Wan backwards). But the fact is against other opponents Anakin has proven he's superior.

If swordplay to you means they were both holding swords, then fine I'll concede if it gets you off this point.

But to me swordplay means direct Saber combat on even ground. Obi-Wan is not a superior swordsman to Anakin. And did not win due to superior swordplay.

Give me just 1 Example of Anakin making such a move as a Jedi Knight.

And no Obi-Wan didn't want Anakin to make the jump. He begged him not to.

Dooku ran away. That says a lot. Maul didn't run away from Obi-Wan. Nor did Anakin.

So again if they wanted to show Obi-Wan was straight up superior in a sword fight, then that's exactly what they would have done.

I thought you had conceded that Maul must have been tiring by that end fight with Obi-Wan?? And yet Obi-Wan still couldn't outfight him.

Doing just fine?? What are you talking about, he couldn't keep up with the fight. Hows that doing just fine. Without Qui-Gon there he'd be dead. And the fact that he used Qui-Gon's weapon to win in the end just makes that point even more clear.

You are kidding me right? I can think of 2 Jedi and One Sith Apprentice off the top off my head who have defeated the General and none of them are on Skywalker's level.

Heck Ashoka was stalemating the General recently.

Defeating Count Dooku (heck even consistently stalemating him) is above anyone Kenobi has ever defeated. What puts the Icing on the cake is Kenobi failed attempts at the Count.

Anakin history against Ventress is also superior to Kenobi's.

So basically the opponents they've both fought shows Anakin to be superior. Anakin can defeat anyone Obi-Wan can but the same can not be said Vice Versa. The reason is because Anakin is just as skilled a swordsman as Obi-Wan but he is CLEARLY MORE POWERFUL.

It's a matter of style's making fights as I stated... Because JMM has a good style to beat Pac.. doesn't mean he can beat Money May.. That is exactly what is going on with Dooku/Obi/Anakin... That is the point you're missing and keep plugging your ears going.. Anakin is more powerful!!! No... Anakin's style is better suited to do better against Kenobi. Simple.

Ummm no, that is a very narrow version of swordplay and not what most would agree with as the definition of swordplay. They were just HOLDING SWORDS... There was a stirke.. a block.. and a counter strike... THAT IS SWORDPLAY.

This silly notion that just beause someting isn't shown means something is one of the biggest fallacies I've seen you use. That is like saying... Rocky couldn't have KO'd Drago before the last round... If he could.. it wouldn't been shown. That is like saying.. BJ Penn submitted Joe. S. but he didn't KO him.. thus if he could've KO'd he would've.. WTF kinda ass backwards assuming your conclusion is this. That makes absolutly no sense in real life and EVEN LESS sense in movies.. where things are driven by plot and effects and Drama. Just because someone doesn't do something and chooses to do something else doesn't mean they could've have gone about it another way and still won. I hope you concede this laughable theory.

The next problem with your line of thinking is that Kenobi didn't want ANakin to make the jump... WTF... Why on God's Green Earth would he not want him to make the jump? The ONLY reason he wouldn't want him to make the jump is because he didn't want to kill him. Yet we know that is the exact opposite of his mission. So that dismisses this point. So what we are left with is... Kenobi BAITING.. EVEN DARING Anakin to make that move.. knowing full well it would give him an opporunity to win. Guess what, kenobi's cunning, intelligence, level head once again got him the victory. He knew Anakin would take the bait and that is exactly what happpened. For the life of me I can't understand how you can't see that scene for exactly what it was.

As stated above... Anakin being dumb enough and bold enough to turn to the darkside is about a dumb a move as possible for a jedi. It doesn't get much dumber than that. but further.. it's well documented that Jedi Knight Anakin makes bold brash moves.. Just because they don't work out changes nothing. They are still bold rash moves that might have cost his side victory... Them working out doesn't change their nature.

You keep acting like the CW series has watered down The General.. is that really your stance? You know full well that before the CW series.. The General was viewed as a Jedi Killer and somebody nobody wanted to face. You know full well what I'm talking about and know how he was viewed when the highest form of canon (the movie) was released. Since then, his stock has went down thanks to the show, but tha tdoesn't change how he was viewed when Kenobi beat him.

Should I used your flawed logic with Kenobi and Maul.. If Lucas wanted to show Maul was superior to Kenobi in swords he would've shown him beating him in sabers.. Since he didn't.. well clearly Maul isn't better than Kenobi.. Do you see how lame that is... The fact is, Kenobi partially disarmed Maul during their sword encounter. The ONLY time maul gained an advantage was using the force. So really, going by the movie... Kenobi proved superior in partially disarming Maul using his sword.. while the only time Maul could gain an advantage was using the force. Pretty simple then isn't it?

Anakin can do better against anybody he wants.. but when he faces his master.. he gets pwned.. Pretty simple. That is even if I go along with yoru theory (which I don't) that Anakin is superior against the same foes. When in fact, that isn't true... Kenobi has beaten Ventress... Anakin never has. Just like the one victory you're holding in so much esteem.. didn't happen without Dooku being tired already fighting both of them and not going for the kill. Sorry buddy but you'll have to do better than that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's a matter of style's making fights as I stated... Because JMM has a good style to beat Pac.. doesn't mean he can beat Money May.. That is exactly what is going on with Dooku/Obi/Anakin... That is the point you're missing and keep plugging your ears going.. Anakin is more powerful!!! No... Anakin's style is better suited to do better against Kenobi. Simple.

Wow so your actually denying that Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi??

Do you agree he's stronger? Do you agree he has greater force reserves? Do you agree they are equally skilled?

blade for blade they were identical

If they were equally skilled but Anakin has greater reserves, is stronger, and can tank force attacks better then I don't for the life of me see how you can deny Anakin was more powerful.

Doesn't matter if they fought each other equally, Anakin Is clearly More Powerful.

And this Dooku/Obi/Anakin A>B>C>A that your claiming I'm ignoring.. I've asked you this before, but you skip the point. Do you honestly think Obi-Wan only lost to Dooku due to a clash of styles?? I mean he was completely stomped! Twice!

If anything the clash of styles is between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm no, that is a very narrow version of swordplay and not what most would agree with as the definition of swordplay. They were just HOLDING SWORDS... There was a stirke.. a block.. and a counter strike... THAT IS SWORDPLAY.

KT seriously if 2 Jedi swordsmen are fighting in on a completely uneven terrain, jumping from platform to platform, then seriously the fight can go either way. There's absolutely no guarantee of the superior swordsman winning.

In fact the chances are it will be the Inferior swordsman who will try to keeping moving to different level terrains in an attempt to even the odds, or find a way to defeat the superior opponent, which is exactly what Obi-Wan did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The next problem with your line of thinking is that Kenobi didn't want ANakin to make the jump... WTF...

LOL This is something you've made up! Kenobi's face expression and vocals and Line made it perfectly clear he DIDN'T want Anakin to make a stupid suicide jump. He wasn't even expecting it! "It's Over Anakin. I have the High Ground".. "You underestimate my power", Obi-Wan looks shocked that Anakin is even considering the jump: "Dont' do it!"

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why on God's Green Earth would he not want him to make the jump?

Because even though he was willing to kill Anakin he really didn't want to chop up his brother. "I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you."

"You were my brother Anakin!"

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As stated above... Anakin being dumb enough and bold enough to turn to the darkside is about a dumb a move as possible for a jedi.

So any Jedi who truns to the Dark side is dumb??!

So I guess Dooku was a dumb ass too right?? So Obi-Wan got stomped twice by a complete dumb ass??

I think your confusing Intelligence with Ethics.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep acting like the CW series has watered down The General.. is that really your stance? You know full well that before the CW series.. The General was viewed as a Jedi Killer and somebody nobody wanted to face. You know full well what I'm talking about and know how he was viewed when the highest form of canon (the movie) was released. Since then, his stock has went down thanks to the show, but tha tdoesn't change how he was viewed when Kenobi beat him.

The general was never a threat to someone of Anakin's level.

Kenobi stomped him in Sabers in ROTS. Kit Fisto has also bested him in Sabers. Dooku was clearly his superior in Sabers, Ventress is also his superior in Sabers.

Anakin is above all those Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith in Sabers and at least Kenobi's equal, so there's absolutely no reason at all to think beating Grievous puts Kenobi's feats above Anakin's beating Dooku. That feat doesn't even compare.

The highest form of canon your talking about has Grievous in 1 fight where he gets stomped and has Mace telling Palpatine that Grievous is "a Coward and will do what he always does. Hide and Run.."

So actually it was the highest form of canon you refer to that was the first medium to water Grievous down. The T-Canon show is very much in line with the Movies.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Should I used your flawed logic with Kenobi and Maul.. If Lucas wanted to show Maul was superior to Kenobi in swords he would've shown him beating him in sabers.. Since he didn't.. well clearly Maul isn't better than Kenobi.. Do you see how lame that is... The fact is, Kenobi partially disarmed Maul during their sword encounter. The ONLY time maul gained an advantage was using the force. So really, going by the movie... Kenobi proved superior in partially disarming Maul using his sword.. while the only time Maul could gain an advantage was using the force. Pretty simple then isn't it?

Urmm Lucas did show Maul did defeat Kenobi in Sabers, when he kicked him out of the fight and disarmed him of his weapon. Lucky for Kenobi Qui-Gon was there to save him.

Obi-Wan's winning move on Maul was with Qui-Gon's Saber (more proof he couldn't have won on his own).

Plus you've already conceded that Maul MUST HAVE been tiring by that final fight, whilst Obi-Wan was fresh, revitalized and powered up by his rage.

So Maul not besting him in Sabers in that final fight means squat. It's not like Kenobi best him either.

And for the Love of GOD Kenobi couldn't even defeat him with help!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin can do better against anybody he wants.. but when he faces his master.. he gets pwned.. Pretty simple. That is even if I go along with yoru theory (which I don't) that Anakin is superior against the same foes. When in fact, that isn't true...

How can you deny that after he trounced Dooku who first trounced Kenobi??! It's like your just in denial of this fact.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi has beaten Ventress... Anakin never has.

Anakin's beaten Ventress Twice off the top of my head. Once in a Clone War comic. and once in the CW mini cartoon. The one time they fought one on one in the new animation she ran from him. So I think that counts as a third.

In fact every time they fight he has her on the defense whether he's alone or if he's with Kenobi.

Anakin's never lost to Ventress whilst Kenobi has lost to her TWICE. Once with stupid ease in the episode "Nightsisters" and once in the novel Cestus Deception.

So Like I said before very turthfully and very accurately, Skywalker consistently performs better against Ventress than Kenobi does.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just like the one victory you're holding in so much esteem.. didn't happen without Dooku being tired already fighting both of them

This is funny how you keep making excuses for Dooku being Tired after a few seconds of fighting 2 opponents, yet go on about how Obi-Wan PARTIALLY Disarmed Maul even though that was after Maul was fighting 2 opponents for minutes, then had 2 one on ones.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and not going for the kill.

You keep forgetting that Anakin initially defeated Dooku without killing him.

You also keep ignoring that Anakin has performed much better against a fresh Dooku on multiple occasions in the Clone Wars than Obi-Wan ever has.

It doesn't matter that he didn't win on those occasions, because fact is neither did Dooku. That puts Skywalker's performances far far ahead of Kenobi's. Oh and Dooku clearly was going for the kill in the Clone War movie.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sorry buddy but you'll have to do better than that.

I'm afraid you will. You seem to keep ignoring the main points like Anakin consistently outperforming Kenobi against Powerhouses like Count Dooku, and other opponents like Ventress.

Your also using double standards in your arguments with the
"Dooku being tired but there are no excuses for Maul" thing.

You also seem to be acting like the suicide move Anakin made clearly makes Kenobi the better swordsman?? But:

1) It's a lot less likely Jedi Anakin would make that move.
2) Jumping from platform to platform makes the fight too unpredictable. Anyone can win or lose in a scenario like that. Which is why Yoda failed to defeat Sidious even though the evidence suggests he was actually a superior combatant to Sidious.
3) You should acknowledge that Anakin was at least Obi-Wan's equal when up against him and stop putting everything on that last jump which was very scenario specific.

You'll have to up your game.

This is the problem... you view power as only having the variables of strength and force reserves.. and you've also thrown in being able to tank force attacks. Yet, in the star wars universe the mind often times is viewed as the most powerful weapon... being tactical... wise... being calm under pressure... stability etc etc.. In this area Kenobi has Anakin t by miles. So while you would like to pigeon hole power to equating force reserves and strength.. I know better buddy, and so do you.

As for your questions... I do believe Anakin is relatively stronger.. I say relatively.. because when they locked up in swords.. Anakin didn't overpower Kenobi. If he was considerably stronger.. he would've easily. More force reserves.. I would agree he has the edge in tis regard as well. While you already agreed that Kenobi has the mental advantage... do you think that advantage is just as strong as the ones Anakin has?

It depends on how you define clash of styles... I call it that because since Dooku has very good offensive force powers and Kenobi's defense agaisnt force powers isn't very good... It gives Dooku the advantage each and every time they fight. It's like San Fran against Baltimore... San Fran can stop Baltimore running game (their strength and what sets everything else up) So, they have that stylistic advantage each and every time. Yet, if they play Green bay.. a team that doesn't rely on the run to set anything up or run much.. they advantage they have against teams like baltimore is non existent and they have a better chance to beat the niners. Understand now?

Something I've made up.. HUH????? Question was Kenobi there to kill Anakin? Then once you've answered that.. then please tell me why he not want Anakin to jump.. Please explain the total lapse in logic between those two things. How you can even think that is really truly beyond me. For God's sake Kenobi was standing over a downed Anakin and tried to strike him down with no weapon. So that disproves the theory that he wanted to win fair and square. You didn't make up that theory with NO backing what so ever.. but just in case you present it.. I want to nip that theory in the bud now. So now explain the total lapse in your logic here.

Of course it's a dumb move... Are you claiming it's not? Or simply using more fallacies like begging the question. It's made TOTALLY clear that in the star wwar universe there is good and evil.. right and wrong... That is stuffed down our throats ad nauseum throught the movies and books. So yes, somebody who was fighting for the good side.. suddenly kills a friend and companion who was just about to ride the universe of evil... Yup it doesn't get much dumber than that. You disagree?

You didn't answer my question AGAIN... Has the CW series watered down The General at all. We've seen numerous people on here state that very thing. You disagree? How can you when MOST of the losses you refer to HAPPEN IN THE CW SERIES fro God's sake.

Where did it shown Maul superior to kenobi in SABERS... This coming for a guy who says jumping in a sword fight means it's not a sabers fight... Even when there is s strike.. a block and a counter stirke. Yet, maul didn't even use his saber to get the advantage over Kenobi he used kicks as you said. yet THIS is a saber fight and proving superior? LULZ a big LULZ. At first I thought you concede your laughable assuming your conclusion when talking about what is shown and if something isn't shown in means this. You didn't quote my numerous examples of how that doesn't make sense and the biggest fallacy you used so far. So.. I thought you were conceding this point.. ARE YOU IN FACT NOT? So you believe that Bj Penn can't KO Joe S.. because he submitted him.. and if he could've KO'd him he would've.. Do you know how laughable that is.. It's even more laughable when applied ot movies driven by plot and effects. So... are you conceding this point or not?

You keep going on about how Anakin has done okay against a fresh dooku.. Yet fail to see that when he actually defeated him... he wasn't fresh.. which could be THE reason he was actually able to defeat him. Why does this point allude you? It's all sound and very logical. Anakin can only stalemate or be on the losing end if Dooku is fresh.. if he isn't fresh and dooku isn't going for the kill. he's won. Yup seems pretty damn logical to me.

The fact remains and this is just something you can't get around. Kenobi has more impressive victories than Anakin. Shit he's even beat Anakin one v one.. That proves who is superior between the two. YOu can go on and on about how Anakin has done better against Dooku or Ventress.. yet when he faces his daddy... he gets turned into a half robot. That is just something you'll need to accept as a fact, since ya know, it's one. Kenobi will always have the advantage over Anakin and it will be his fight to lose each time they fight. How Anakin does against others has shit all to do with how he does against his Master.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is the problem... you view power as only having the variables of strength and force reserves.. and you've also thrown in being able to tank force attacks. Yet, in the star wars universe the mind often times is viewed as the most powerful weapon... being tactical... wise... being calm under pressure... stability etc etc.. In this area Kenobi has Anakin t by miles. So while you would like to pigeon hole power to equating force reserves and strength.. I know better buddy, and so do you.

Well yeah I'm talking about power in terms of physical and force powers and skills. Of course I'm not including mental powers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As for your questions... I do believe Anakin is relatively stronger.. I say relatively.. because when they locked up in swords.. Anakin didn't overpower Kenobi. If he was considerably stronger.. he would've easily. More force reserves.. I would agree he has the edge in tis regard as well. While you already agreed that Kenobi has the mental advantage... do you think that advantage is just as strong as the ones Anakin has?

You can't say just because they got into Saber locks that they are almost as strong as each other. Dooku and Yoda got into Saber locks. Does that mean Dooku is as Strong as Yoda??

But the script makes it clear that Anakin was FORCING Kenobi backwards. That's obviously due to either strength, speed or both. My guess would be it's mainly strength.

And he didn't overpower Kenobi easily because of Kenobi's defensive style being designed to handle that. The whole point of a defensive style is to defend against power blows.

So you see it's Anakin vs Obi-Wan where the clash of styles comes in.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It depends on how you define clash of styles... I call it that because since Dooku has very good offensive force powers and Kenobi's defense agaisnt force powers isn't very good... It gives Dooku the advantage each and every time they fight. It's like San Fran against Baltimore... San Fran can stop Baltimore running game (their strength and what sets everything else up) So, they have that stylistic advantage each and every time. Yet, if they play Green bay.. a team that doesn't rely on the run to set anything up or run much.. they advantage they have against teams like baltimore is non existent and they have a better chance to beat the niners. Understand now?

It's not that Obi-Wan's inherently weak against Force attacks. He's just a lot weaker in the force than Dooku. Whilst Anakin's force reserves and physical endurance aid him in tanking Dooku's force attacks much better. Which is why I say the clash of styles is between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Not between Anakin and Dooku, and not between Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Something I've made up.. HUH????? Question was Kenobi there to kill Anakin? Then once you've answered that.. then please tell me why he not want Anakin to jump.. Please explain the total lapse in logic between those two things. How you can even think that is really truly beyond me. For God's sake Kenobi was standing over a downed Anakin and tried to strike him down with no weapon. So that disproves the theory that he wanted to win fair and square. You didn't make up that theory with NO backing what so ever.. but just in case you present it.. I want to nip that theory in the bud now. So now explain the total lapse in your logic here.

I don't care enough about this point to argue it. Just pointing out your the first person I've heard make this claim.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course it's a dumb move... Are you claiming it's not? Or simply using more fallacies like begging the question. It's made TOTALLY clear that in the star wwar universe there is good and evil.. right and wrong... That is stuffed down our throats ad nauseum throught the movies and books. So yes, somebody who was fighting for the good side.. suddenly kills a friend and companion who was just about to ride the universe of evil... Yup it doesn't get much dumber than that. You disagree?

What are you talking about?! Dooku was extremely smart as was Vader.

It's a life choice, an ethically bad choice. Nothing to do with being dumb.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You didn't answer my question AGAIN... Has the CW series watered down The General at all. We've seen numerous people on here state that very thing. You disagree? How can you when MOST of the losses you refer to HAPPEN IN THE CW SERIES fro God's sake.

The Clone War series is T-Canon. That's higher canon than the comics, books and original mini-series where Grievous was a beast. So what you see as being watered down is actually the official canon version.

I personally think he was watered down in ROTS.

Where did it shown Maul superior to kenobi in SABERS... This coming for a guy who says jumping in a sword fight means it's not a sabers fight... Even when there is s strike.. a block and a counter stirke. Yet, maul didn't even use his saber to get the advantage over Kenobi he used kicks as you said. yet THIS is a saber fight and proving superior? LULZ a big LULZ. At first I thought you concede your laughable assuming your conclusion when talking about what is shown and if something isn't shown in means this. You didn't quote my numerous examples of how that doesn't make sense and the biggest fallacy you used so far. So.. I thought you were conceding this point.. ARE YOU IN FACT NOT? So you believe that Bj Penn can't KO Joe S.. because he submitted him.. and if he could've KO'd him he would've.. Do you know how laughable that is.. It's even more laughable when applied ot movies driven by plot and effects. So... are you conceding this point or not?

You keep going on about how Anakin has done okay against a fresh dooku.. Yet fail to see that when he actually defeated him... he wasn't fresh.. which could be THE reason he was actually able to defeat him. Why does this point allude you? It's all sound and very logical. Anakin can only stalemate or be on the losing end if Dooku is fresh.. if he isn't fresh and dooku isn't going for the kill. he's won. Yup seems pretty damn logical to me.

The fact remains and this is just something you can't get around. Kenobi has more impressive victories than Anakin. Shit he's even beat Anakin one v one.. That proves who is superior between the two. YOu can go on and on about how Anakin has done better against Dooku or Ventress.. yet when he faces his daddy... he gets turned into a half robot. That is just something you'll need to accept as a fact, since ya know, it's one. Kenobi will always have the advantage over Anakin and it will be his fight to lose each time they fight. How Anakin does against others has shit all to do with how he does against his Master. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you quoting my last part because of how good it was and wanted to highlight that?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Where did it shown Maul superior to kenobi in SABERS... This coming for a guy who says jumping in a sword fight means it's not a sabers fight... Even when there is s strike.. a block and a counter stirke. Yet, maul didn't even use his saber to get the advantage over Kenobi he used kicks as you said. yet THIS is a saber fight and proving superior? LULZ a big LULZ. At first I thought you concede your laughable assuming your conclusion when talking about what is shown and if something isn't shown in means this. You didn't quote my numerous examples of how that doesn't make sense and the biggest fallacy you used so far. So.. I thought you were conceding this point.. ARE YOU IN FACT NOT? So you believe that Bj Penn can't KO Joe S.. because he submitted him.. and if he could've KO'd him he would've.. Do you know how laughable that is.. It's even more laughable when applied ot movies driven by plot and effects. So... are you conceding this point or not?

What?? Of course kicks are a part of the saber combat. That's how Mace defeated Sidious.. Or Mace defeating Sidious not a legitimate Saber defeat for you because of the kick??

After Maul kicked Obi-Wan's lights out and disarmed him of his weapon, he would have Stabbed him with HIS LIGHTSABER. Is that more clear for you? BUt lucky for Kenobi right after that kick Qui-Gon knocked Maul down.

What's laughable?? The jumping thing is fine in a straight up fight. Maul jumped around a lot himself. What I'm talking about is jumping aound an uneven terrain.

If you don't think the terrain and high ground makes a difference in a fight then I don't know what else to say to you.

Yoda failed to defeat Sidious due to the terrain, not because he was inferior combat wise in any way.

Jumping around an uneven terrain like that completely throws away the odds of whose going to win. There's abosolutely no guarantee in that scenario that the superior swordsman will win.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep going on about how Anakin has done okay against a fresh dooku..

He's done more than OK KT. He's consistently stalemated him. Even had him on the run in their last fight in Crisis on Naboo.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yet fail to see that when he actually defeated him... he wasn't fresh.. which could be THE reason he was actually able to defeat him. Why does this point allude you? It's all sound and very logical.

And you fail to see that Kenobi was alongside Anakin, yet was COMPLETELY USELESS against Dooku EVEN IN HIS TIRED STATE.

Whilst Anakin STOMPED HIM in that state. Ergo Anakin was the far superior combatant against Dooku.

And again your carrying on this Double Standard point, where Anakin's win over Dooku doesn't count because he fought 2 Jedi for a few seconds, and yet Obi-Wan just PARTIALLY disarming Maul and yet still failing to outfight him is supposed to be something Uber when MAUL WAS FIGHTING 2 OPPONENTS FOR A MUCH LONGER TIME! Like more than 10 times LONGER!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin can only stalemate or be on the losing end if Dooku is fresh..

He's NEVER been on the losing end since he was a Padawan apart from when DOOKU HAD HELP.

And I don't get why you keep failing to see that EVEN STALEMATING COUNT FRIGGING DOOKU puts Anakin well beyond Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact remains and this is just something you can't get around. Kenobi has more impressive victories than Anakin.

HOW IN THE NAME OF LUCAS is beating Grievous superior to Stalemating Count frigging Dooku?!

Are you high while writing this shit KT??

And you've also completely ignored Anakin's far superior showings against Ventress.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Shit he's even beat Anakin one v one.. That proves who is superior between the two. YOu can go on and on about how Anakin has done better against Dooku or Ventress.. yet when he faces his daddy... he gets turned into a half robot. That is just something you'll need to accept as a fact, since ya know, it's one. Kenobi will always have the advantage over Anakin and it will be his fight to lose each time they fight. How Anakin does against others has shit all to do with how he does against his Master.

Ok from that 1 fight where the terrain was the main factor in Kenobi winning, and it was only due to Anakin making a seriously stupid move that he likely wouldn't do as a Jedi... How on Earth do you get from that one Jump that Obi-Wan would win EVERY TIME??!

That's just nuts KT. For a guy who would WIN EVERY TIME he sure took long enough to make that win. And if he's just plain out superior why did he HAVE TO take advantage of the terrain to win.

Why couldn't he just plain out outfight him, like Mace did to Sidious??

But I do agree with you that Anakin will always have trouble against Kenobi. But best case scenario for Kenobi is they fight as equals.

And Anakin will always show he's superior to Kenobi against other opponents- Dooku, Ventress e.t.c.