ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

Started by Arhael27 pages
Arhael Devoid of reality

True but it's all very speculative about how much and when Obi-Wan may or may not hold back.

The point about Anakin's rage is that we know as a fact from the novel and script that it directly increases his power, and according to Dooku he actually has a natural gift for using it.


Well. There is clear difference in performance, when he fights Maul only and when he fights both brothers. He didn't even try to do anything to Maul, he was simply defending himself as always. But in fight with both of them he kicks them as well as giving some overwhelming saber combos. Before Force choke Opress was pretty much done crauching to the floor.

In normal circumstances Kenobi never becomes lethal. For example, when teamed up with Ventress, he could easily kill Maul. But instead of stabbing him into back he just reclaimed his lightsaber and Force pushed him into boxes. Would a Sith be so kind, if a Jedi presented his back to him?

And the way he disarmed Ventress twice. It would be much easier to chop off her arm but both times he did it hard way.

No one can guarantee Anakin would have made the same jump as a Jedi.

No one can guaranty that Anakin wouldn't get a kick into his face that without rage would likely knock him down. 😄

DARTH POWER Senior Member
Originally posted by Arhael
Well. There is clear difference in performance, when he fights Maul only and when he fights both brothers. He didn't even try to do anything to Maul, he was simply defending himself as always. But in fight with both of them he kicks them as well as giving some overwhelming saber combos. Before Force choke Opress was pretty much done crauching to the floor.

That's not about holding back, that's just about tactics.

I have the novel of his fight with Maul and Opress and he decides his best bet to survive would be to go on the offensive.

But that's obviously not his usual tactic.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael

In normal circumstances Kenobi never becomes lethal. For example, when teamed up with Ventress, he could easily kill Maul. But instead of stabbing him into back he just reclaimed his lightsaber and Force pushed him into boxes. Would a Sith be so kind, if a Jedi presented his back to him?

He didn't finish Maul then because he took the opportunity to watch out for Ventress. He saw she was disarmed and close to being killed.

So yeah his holding back in that instant was due to compassion. But not compassion towards Maul. If he had that he never would have chopped him in 2 Lol.

Originally posted by Arhael

And the way he disarmed Ventress twice. It would be much easier to chop off her arm but both times he did it hard way.

I don't know about that. Ventress disarmed Kenobi but didn't chop his arm off.

I don't think it's a matter of hitting them wherever they want, but taking advantage of specific openings in specific spots.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Obi-Wan also wasn't able to defeat Anakin before that jump.
Well duh, that's the whole point of soresu. To wait until the opponent slips, which is what happened, therefore Obi Wan DID end up defeating him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So it's again all coming down to that jump.
Because your argument is that the jump was Anakin's fault, not Obi Wan's right? Well Obi Wan's use of soresu has therefore been successful, as he has waited for Anakin to slip. e.g THE WHOLE POINT OF SORESU.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan is shown to be a better tactician there with Anakin in that mental state. Nothing to do with sword fighting skills though.

So it's again all coming down to that jump before which Obi-Wan was unable to penetrate Anakin's defenses..

Your still not getting it. Obi Wan broke Anakin's defences when he jumped and did not defend himself well enough while doing so. What part of that is not penetrating someone's defence?

And it WAS to do with sword fighting skills! Anakin went in for the attack, and Obi Wan used the mou kei finishing move. Look it up if you don't believe me. So technically it did have something to do with swordplay.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Speculation. And if we look at the Clone War episodes it's very clear that it's not normal for Anakin to be tactically dumb.

But we've been over this. No point in going around in circles.

But in terms of you not believing Anakin's mental state was an issue, I'll just leave you with this thought since it's a point I've not brought up yet:

How did Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson?

Do you really think Buster Douglas was a better boxer than Mike Tyson just because he won that one time they fought? Which happened to coincide with Mike Tyson's personal life being in complete disarray, much like Anakin's was when he fought Kenobi.

Yet we know Mike Tyson was the better boxer due to his other wins against more formidable opponents. Which is similar to why most people here believe Anakin is the superior/more powerful combatant to Kenobi based on his win over Count Dooku.

Well if i'm speculating, so are you. I look at the clone wars AND the films and it is clear to me that Anakin makes heaps of stupid decisions. Even as jedi knight.

Buster Douglas won because he was the superior combatant at that time.

Rookwood Restricted

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

How did Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson?

Do you really think Buster Douglas was a better boxer than Mike Tyson just because he won that one time they fought? Which happened to coincide with Mike Tyson's personal life being in complete disarray, much like Anakin's was when he fought Kenobi.

Yet we know Mike Tyson was the better boxer due to his other wins against more formidable opponents. Which is similar to why most people here believe Anakin is the superior/more powerful combatant to Kenobi based on his win over Count Dooku.

👆

Originally posted by mnat801

Buster Douglas won because he was the superior combatant at that time.

I agree with DP's astute point up there. If Douglas won just because Tyson's life was in complete disarray and he was physically and mentally thrown off his game, then that means Douglas wasn't the superior fighter - he just got lucky.

But yeah, Obi-wan essentially got lucky here, as well.

Zonakin would have taken Obi-wan out pretty quickly, and even a Dark side Anakin who had not been engulfed in great inner turmoil, would have de-boned Obi-wan with his lightsaber like a fish.

Obi-wan didn't win because he was the better fighter/superior combatant - he survived for as long as he did, because he was exceptionally-skilled - but he ended up winning, because his opponent was completely thrown off his game and divided amongst himself - which was very lucky to Obi-wan.

As said before, if this were a normal focused Anakin - not mentally-gimped like later - he would have raped Obi-wan.

In my experience, there is no such thing as luck. - Ben Kenobi, ANH

The running gag Lucas inserted into the series, whereupon Obi-wan wins the majority of his fights through luck - and then claims much later that phenomenon isn't real.

Very funny, and very clever. 😄

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by mnat801
Well duh, that's the whole point of soresu. To wait until the opponent slips, which is what happened, therefore Obi Wan DID end up defeating him.

Because your argument is that the jump was Anakin's fault, not Obi Wan's right? Well Obi Wan's use of soresu has therefore been successful, as he has waited for Anakin to slip. e.g THE WHOLE POINT OF SORESU.

This is actually one of your better points. And I agree with you that Kenobi beat Sith Anakin fair and square.

He used Soresu to defend until an opportunity came to take advantage of a stupid move of Anakin's.

Originally posted by mnat801
Your still not getting it. Obi Wan broke Anakin's defences when he jumped and did not defend himself well enough while doing so. What part of that is not penetrating someone's defence?

I get all your points crystal clear. Unfortunately your not hearing mine.

Obi-Wan was looking for opportunities to break Anakin's defenses the whole fight. But he could not penetrate them. Heck he even had Anakin lying on the floor at one point, and he STILL couldn't penetrate Anakin's own Saber defenses.

(In case you didn't know Djem So and Shien both stem from Soresu so also have a very advanced level of defense incorporated into them.)

But if we look at when he finally did chop up Anakin, the opportunity which presented itself was very Scenario specific.

It required Anakin to make a dumb tactical move (out of character for an accomplished Jedi and Hero of the Clone Wars, but in character for a Newbe Sith to think "I'm all powerful now so I can forget tactics"😉.

It required different level terrains, and a lethal pit to fall into. (If not for the Lava, Anakin could have simply walked across).

And even still, this rare and scenario specific opportunity only came very very late into the fight, when it was clear to both combatants that the fight was reaching it's closure: "I have failed you Anakin," "This is the end for you now my Master."

So given all that what really are the chances of Kenobi finding an opportunity to defeat Jedi Knight Anakin in a Geonosia arena, on a Tatooine Desert or on the Invisible Hand?

Pretty rare I'd say personally.

9 times out of 10 it's going to come down to who Tires first. And my bet would be on that being Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
And it WAS to do with sword fighting skills! Anakin went in for the attack, and Obi Wan used the mou kei finishing move. Look it up if you don't believe me. So technically it did have something to do with swordplay.

Nah. As I've tried explaining to KT when 2 opponents are just jumping around from terrain to terrain then the odds just go out of the window. The superior swordsman could easily lose. Which is why it's usually the inferior combatant who resorts to such tactics.

Just like Yoda failed to defeat the Emperor just because it was in a scenario where he had to leap from Pod to Pod to close the distance. And in the end Yoda fell the hardest even though he was winning the Force fight.

Does that make Sidious more powerful than Yoda in a straight up fight? Of course not. But perhaps Sidious is the better tactician to gain the most advantageous position. (But then that was of no use to him in the earlier scenario where he fought Mace. And Mace is a clear no.2 to Yoda).

Maybe Obi-Wan's better at finding the advantageous position than Anakin is. (But then let's not forget he had the advantageous position when Anakin was lying on the floor and still couldn't penetrate his Saber defenses.)

So these tactical smarts are certainly plus's but can only be relied on to win fights in very specific scenario's which probably don't come into play in the majority of Saber fights.

Originally posted by mnat801
Well if i'm speculating, so are you. I look at the clone wars AND the films and it is clear to me that Anakin makes heaps of stupid decisions. Even as jedi knight.

Not this again!
You keep claiming this and yet you've not even given me one example. Whilst I've given tons and tons of examples of the opposite being true.
Stupid Ethical decisions? Yeah probably. Stupid Tactical decision? Nah. He doesn't do that at all.

Originally posted by mnat801
Buster Douglas won because he was the superior combatant at that time.

In that specific fight? Yeah. But it was 100% due to circumstance and nothing to do with A>B>C>A.

Mike Tyson at his peak would have stomped Douglas in a first or second round knockout. Everyone knows that.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by Rookwood
I agree with DP's astute point up there. If Douglas won just because Tyson's life was in complete disarray and he was physically and mentally thrown off his game, then that means Douglas wasn't the superior fighter - he just got lucky.
If you know anything about boxing, you'll know when your going to go up against a beast like Tyson, it doesn't just come down to luck. Whatever state their lives where in, they still train for months before a fight, so its more likely that it came down to who trained the hardest.

Originally posted by Rookwood
But yeah, Obi-wan essentially got lucky here, as well.
My argument with Obi Wan and Anakin is that if Anakin is clearly the superior out of the two, it shouldn't be likely for Obi Wan to last that long, let alone defeat him. So for me, it wasn't about being lucky.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Zonakin would have taken Obi-wan out pretty quickly, and even a Dark side Anakin who had not been engulfed in great inner turmoil, would have de-boned Obi-wan with his lightsaber like a fish.
It should be clear that Obi Wan wouldn't have been taken out very quickly, as of his Soresu form and his experience with Anakin.

Well the dark side Anakin depicted in ROTS couldn't de-bone Kenobi like a fish...

Originally posted by Rookwood
Obi-wan didn't win because he was the better fighter/superior combatant - he survived for as long as he did, because he was exceptionally-skilled - but he ended up winning, because his opponent was completely thrown off his game and divided amongst himself - which was very lucky to Obi-wan.
My view on this is that at that point in time, Kenobi was the superior fighter, due to the fact that he wasn't the one making the bad decisions - as well as his soresu technique, which demanded an extended duel to force the opponent to make a silly move. That's just how I stand on Anakin's fall on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Rookwood
As said before, if this were a normal focused Anakin - not mentally-gimped like later - he would have raped Obi-wan.
Speculation. Possible, but not 100 fact that it would occur. And like I said earlier on this thread, where Anakin was held back due to his mental state, Obi Wan, in the particular duel on Mustafar, was held back due to the fact that killing Anakin would be his last resort (hence trying to talk Anakin out of the duel).

In my experience, there is no such thing as luck. - Ben Kenobi, ANH

The running gag Lucas inserted into the series, whereupon Obi-wan wins the majority of his fights through luck - and then claims much later that phenomenon isn't real.

Very funny, and very clever. 😄 [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, what's funny in the Clone Wars series, both Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi say they don't believe in luck, to later contractict themselves in the same episode. But anyway..

My depiction of Obi Wans victories:

Maul's loss = Maul's cockiness and Kenobi's confidence not luck.
Grevious' loss = Obi Wan simply the better opponent so nothing to do with luck here
Anakin's fall = Anakin has to resort to silly move - partially due to Anakin's state of mind and partially to do with Obi Wan's command of soresu

Rookwood Restricted
Originally posted by mnat801
If you know anything about boxing, you'll know when your going to go up against a beast like Tyson, it doesn't just come down to luck. Whatever state their lives where in, they still train for months before a fight, so its more likely that it came down to who trained the hardest.

Nah - their mental-states were still a main factor.

Fighting is 90% mental, 10% physical. Having a mental edge over an opponent, or having that opponent mentally destroyed or damaged into submission by something, normally means their defeat is inevitable.

And if Tyson was badly emotionally-damaged during that stage in his life, then yes, against a beast like Tyson, Douglas did indeed, get lucky.

Originally posted by mnat801

My argument with Obi Wan and Anakin is that if Anakin is clearly the superior out of the two, it shouldn't be likely for Obi Wan to last that long, let alone defeat him. So for me, it wasn't about being lucky.

Sure, if Obi-wan had not been a master of a defensive form.

But he was, so that explained why he would last a while, anyway.

Originally posted by mnat801

It should be clear that Obi Wan wouldn't have been taken out very quickly, as of his Soresu form and his experience with Anakin.

Well the dark side Anakin depicted in ROTS couldn't de-bone Kenobi like a fish...

He could, if he had not been in a damaged mental-state - and quicklier than he took out Dooku, as well.

Originally posted by mnat801

My view on this is that at that point in time, Kenobi was the superior fighter, due to the fact that he wasn't the one making the bad decisions - as well as his soresu technique, which demanded an extended duel to force the opponent to make a silly move. That's just how I stand on Anakin's fall on Mustafar.

Anakin's unusual state balanced the fight out between the two, and allowed Obi-wan to gain the upper hand - meaning Obi-wan just got lucky.

Without those circumstances, Anakin would be thinking clearly and be ready to prune Obi-wan like a Bonsai tree.

Originally posted by mnat801

Speculation. Possible, but not 100 fact that it would occur. And like I said earlier on this thread, where Anakin was held back due to his mental state, Obi Wan, in the particular duel on Mustafar, was held back due to the fact that killing Anakin would be his last resort (hence trying to talk Anakin out of the duel).

Doesn't matter, Anakin would still rape him.

Originally posted by mnat801

Actually, what's funny in the Clone Wars series, both Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi say they don't believe in luck, to later contractict themselves in the same episode. But anyway..

Clone Wars is seemingly written for the intended audience of viewers with an IQ-level of 10 or below.

Originally posted by mnat801

My depiction of Obi Wans victories:

Maul's loss = Maul's cockiness and Kenobi's confidence not luck.

The pit; Maul's aggression being able to be taken advantage of, and Qui Gon's lightsaber being available, and not kicked into the pit, were all symbolic of lucky opportunities for Obi-wan.

Originally posted by mnat801

Grevious' loss = Obi Wan simply the better opponent so nothing to do with luck here

You obviously didn't catch the last part of the fight, where Obi-wan was knocked over the side of a platform, and Grievous was about to stomp his hands loose, until Obi-wan was able to make use of one of Grievous' blasters - that was luckily nearby.

Either that, or you have very crappy plot-comprehension.

Originally posted by mnat801

Anakin's fall = Anakin has to resort to silly move - partially due to Anakin's state of mind and partially to do with Obi Wan's command of soresu

Anakin's resorting to a silly move has everything to do with his unusual mental state - and the advantage of uneven terrain available - just when Obi-wan needs it. Almost reminiscent of Obi-wan's battle with Maul.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Lucas said it himself on some talk show about the Obi-Wan not believing in luck thing being ironic after we see the prequels.

Against Maul the way I see it was he won with the aid of Qui-Gon. He clearly would have been out of his depth if he went up against a completely fresh Maul on his own. Heck he even used Qui-Gon's Saber in the finishing move further proving without Qui-Gon there he would have been screwed.

Anakin's suicide move was very scenario specific and very late in the fight meaning in a rematch Obi-Wan can't just depend on Anakin making a mistake. If we're talking about Jedi Anakin (with his head in the right place) the likelihood of him making a mistake dramatically reduces.

Having said all that, I give Kenobi full credit for continuously defending against Sith Anakin's full rage and power and also for keeping his cool and his smarts every time the odds were against him.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is actually one of your better points. And I agree with you that Kenobi beat Sith Anakin fair and square.

He used Soresu to defend until an opportunity came to take advantage of a stupid move of Anakin's.

Thanks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I get all your points crystal clear. Unfortunately your not hearing mine.
I do hear you, its just we have different views.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was looking for opportunities to break Anakin's defenses the whole fight. But he could not penetrate them. Heck he even had Anakin lying on the floor at one point, and he STILL couldn't penetrate Anakin's own Saber defenses.
Well he wasn't able to then, but he managed to in the end. SO what's the point? Vice versa argument, yet Anakin never ended up breaking Kenobi's defense, heck he didn't even have a scratch.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(In case you didn't know Djem So and Shien both stem from Soresu so also have a very advanced level of defense incorporated into them.)
Sure helped him on that last jump!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But if we look at when he finally did chop up Anakin, the opportunity which presented itself was very Scenario specific.
Like it is scenario specific for Yoda to be unable to defeat Sidious due to the prophecy stating that only the chosen one can restore balance to the force? or Mace Windu almost defeating Sidious until Anakin comes?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It required Anakin to make a dumb tactical move (out of character for an accomplished Jedi and Hero of the Clone Wars, but in character for a Newbe Sith to think "I'm all powerful now so I can forget tactics"😉.
Yes, I agree that a Jedi Anakin will be less likely to stuff up like a Sith Anakin. But where Jedi Anakin gains in controlled state of mind, he will lose some of the agression that Sith Anakin possessed. This could mean that Obi Wan may be able to implement some offensive techniques like Ataru and such.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It required different level terrains, and a lethal pit to fall into. (If not for the Lava, Anakin could have simply walked across).
But the question remains: Why didn't Anakin use terrain to get the advantage in the first place?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And even still, this rare and scenario specific opportunity only came very very late into the fight, when it was clear to both combatants that the fight was reaching it's closure: "I have failed you Anakin," "This is the end for you now my Master."
Again, this is due to Soresu's demand of lengthy duels, and Anakin's ignorance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So given all that what really are the chances of Kenobi finding an opportunity to defeat Jedi Knight Anakin in a Geonosia arena, on a Tatooine Desert or on the Invisible Hand?

Pretty rare I'd say personally.

The point is, Obi Wan was able to acknowledge his surroundings, which Sith Anakin clearly fails to do. Even with Jedi Anakin, i'm pretty sure Obi Wan will use his surroundings effectively. Remember being superior doesn't just come down to who's more powerful or skilled with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
9 times out of 10 it's going to come down to who Tires first. And my bet would be on that being Kenobi.
Even though Obi Wan was looking tired on Mustafar, it never went to the point where he was SO tired that in any second he would get his head chopped off. 9 times out of 10 Anakin's frustration with not being able to penetrate Kenobi's defenses will get the better of him faster than Kenobi getting tired.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. As I've tried explaining to KT when 2 opponents are just jumping around from terrain to terrain then the odds just go out of the window. The superior swordsman could easily lose. Which is why it's usually the inferior combatant who resorts to such tactics.
The superior combatant should know that jumping from terrain to terrain will have their odds of winning thrown out the window. If Anakin truly is superior, then why is he taking chances?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just like Yoda failed to defeat the Emperor just because it was in a scenario where he had to leap from Pod to Pod to close the distance. And in the end Yoda fell the hardest even though he was winning the Force fight.
Well Sids was smart enough to get to the higher advantage point in the first place. Its not like he was handed the advantage. Why didn't Yoda use that advantage instead? Surely we won't have to argue over terrain anymore.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does that make Sidious more powerful than Yoda in a straight up fight? Of course not. But perhaps Sidious is the better tactician to gain the most advantageous position. (But then that was of no use to him in the earlier scenario where he fought Mace. And Mace is a clear no.2 to Yoda).
Pretty much. Perhaps Sidious being the better tactician makes him the superior opponent out of the two, seeing its clear that both their command of the force and lightsaber prowess are very even. But for me, a Sidious vs Yoda match is a 50/50 bet. And as with Mace, I believe his lightsaber form would do better against Sidious than it would with Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe Obi-Wan's better at finding the advantageous position than Anakin is. (But then let's not forget he had the advantageous position when Anakin was lying on the floor and still couldn't penetrate his Saber defenses.)
Well if he gets an opening, should he not take the opportunity?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So these tactical smarts are certainly plus's but can only be relied on to win fights in very specific scenario's which probably don't come into play in the majority of Saber fights.
It would most certainly be important in duels were both opponents are very even.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not this again!
You keep claiming this and yet you've not even given me one example. Whilst I've given tons and tons of examples of the opposite being true.
Stupid Ethical decisions? Yeah probably. Stupid Tactical decision? Nah. He doesn't do that at all.
Cutting of Mace Windu's arm when he couldv'e just blocked his lightsaber. Many times in the clone wars he disobeys orders from his master. As well as all the other examples as sith and padawan which you choose to ignore. These may not be tactical decisions but they are decisions in general. Kenobi was tempted to the dark side by Dooku but he was able to refuse. He also would never attack another jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In that specific fight? Yeah. But it was 100% due to circumstance and nothing to do with A>B>C>A.

Mike Tyson at his peak would have stomped Douglas in a first or second round knockout. Everyone knows that.

Every one knows Tyson is superior to Douglas, but not everyone is certain that Anakin is superior to Obi Wan. Hense the reason we're arguing the topic.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas said it himself on some talk show about the Obi-Wan not believing in luck thing being ironic after we see the prequels.
Really.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Against Maul the way I see it was he won with the aid of Qui-Gon. He clearly would have been out of his depth if he went up against a completely fresh Maul on his own. Heck he even used Qui-Gon's Saber in the finishing move further proving without Qui-Gon there he would have been screwed.
Yes. TPM Maul will defeat TPM Kenobi in a 1 on 1, I have no argument here. Still, after Qui Gon was out, he did pretty well against Maul, only to be thrown back by a force push.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin's suicide move was very scenario specific and very late in the fight meaning in a rematch Obi-Wan can't just depend on Anakin making a mistake. If we're talking about Jedi Anakin (with his head in the right place) the likelihood of him making a mistake dramatically reduces.
It means he can. The length of the fight on Mustafar shows that Anakin will be frustrated and resort to stupid moves. Therefore Obi Wan just needs to use Soresu against him again. With jedi Anakin, he will have a cooler head and a cooler fighting style as well, which gives Kenobi the opportunity to use offensive techniques against him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Having said all that, I give Kenobi full credit for continuously defending against Sith Anakin's full rage and power and also for keeping his cool and his smarts every time the odds were against him.
And I do agree beating Dooku and having a clearer mind definitely has something going for Anakin.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

It comes down to this.. All the excuses in the world for Anakin doesn't change what we actually saw. We saw Kenobi using his style EXACTLY as he does.. and we saw him fnially get his opening and take advantage of it. Kenobi played Anakin like a fiddle and would do so for a majority of fights. There is really nothing that changes those facts, no, not even excuses for Anakin.

DARTH POWER Senior Member
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It comes down to this.. All the excuses in the world for Anakin doesn't change what we actually saw. We saw Kenobi using his style EXACTLY as he does.. and we saw him fnially get his opening and take advantage of it. Kenobi played Anakin like a fiddle and would do so for a majority of fights. There is really nothing that changes those facts, no, not even excuses for Anakin.

And like wise there's no excuses at all for Kenobi doing so poorly against Count Dooku compared to Anakin's far better performance(s).

You can go on about how tired Dooku was. But then he was equally tired for Kenobi who still got easily tooled.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

because his resistance to force attacks aren't as good as Anakin's?

Arhael Devoid of reality

Guys are you utilizing Vaapad or something? I swear I read all that before.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And like wise there's no excuses at all for Kenobi doing so poorly against Count Dooku compared to Anakin's far better performance(s).
They were both defeated by the Count in AoTC. At that time, I legitimately agree that Anakin performed better against Dooku in regards to lightsaber prowess, however in an all out, Obi Wan would have lasted longer than padawan Anakin.

Also, on the Invisible Hand, it is obvious that Dooku did not want to give Obi Wan a fair fight.

DARTH POWER Senior Member
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
because his resistance to force attacks aren't as good as Anakin's?

No Excuses like you said.

Anakin must have performed far better because he was simply more powerful than Obi-Wan (which having better force defenses would imply anyway).

Originally posted by mnat801

Also, on the Invisible Hand, it is obvious that Dooku did not want to give Obi Wan a fair fight.

How was it not a fair fight? If anything it was unfair on Dooku being 2 on 1.

Originally posted by Arhael
Guys are you utilizing Vaapad or something? I swear I read all that before.

Yes this thread is stuck in a superconducting loop!

But I actually like these guys. 22 pages of a superconducting loop and I don't remember these guys getting all personal in their responses.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

And even though I don't completely agree with them, I admit they have brought some good points to my attention.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How was it not a fair fight? If anything it was unfair on Dooku being 2 on 1.
Agreed, I just mean how Dooku went to the full depths of trying to get rid of Kenobi by not only force pushing him 2 times within the first seconds of the fight, but also throwing a huge deck on him so he could not move.

My point being Kenobi wasn't able to show if he had improved since AOTC like Anakin did.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Anakin stomps in seconds.