Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Because thats obi wans style. Remember, he uses form soresu. Thats why.
If Anakin is so full of "stupid moves" in which Obi Wan can take advantage of each and every time, I wonder why their fight lasted so long. I wonder why Obi Wan took advantage of Anakin's stupid moves only after gaining the high ground. Why would Obi Wan want to purposely tire himself out like that?
Originally posted by DARTH POWERI don't understand how these two examples sum up the fact that anakins the better duelist. It just explains that obi wan was struggling at a point in the duel. The reason why I dont believe this sums it up is because if we look at some of obi wans other duels, he seems to struggle sometimes - for example in TCW where he struggles at times against grevious, however that didnt sum up the fact that grevious was a better duelist... You know what I mean?
What?? So a Padawan occasionally losing his Lightsaber = An obvious future dumbass Jedi Knight who will clearly make a dumb and needless suicide jump??Ashoka lost her Lightsaber in the episode "Lightsaber Lost" so I guess she's also obviously a dumbass who would make the same move??
And FYI it was Padme's decision to go try and save Obi-Wan in AOTC. So I guess Padme's also a clear dumb ass who would also make a needless suicide jump?!
The Clone Wars is the only series that properly shows Anakin as a Jedi Knight. And it's shown Skywalker fighting alongside Obi-Wan and other Masters like Mace Windu. And you know what? Skywalker's been shown to be smarter than any of them almost every time.
I believe he was referring to this:
Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.....A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into the wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned.
If that doesn't show Anakin was clearly the superior combatant then I really don't know what does!!
I dont think anyone can actually state that any duelist is clearly superior to another unless it clearly shown. Imo that's not a good enough example, seeing that obi wan suffered no casaulties and ended the duel himself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIt is true, anakin has been very smart in many of TCW episodes, but I also believe he has been reckless at times. A perfect example is when he ignored his master and went to immediately attack dooku in AOTC, resulting in him being hit by force lightning.
Without that "recklessness" he never would have defeated Admiral Trench.There's a difference between what the Jedi consider reckless and what's clearly a dumb move. It's definitely not normal for him to make such a dumb move. In fact he's actually probably smarter than Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Lord LucienIf we took that into account, we could pretty much come up with an excuse for every single lightsaber duel's outcome. e.g anakin HAD TO kill dooku otherwise he wouldnt have become sids apprentice.
To these guys, PIS doesn't exist, Sids.
So based on that, I could argue that Dooku was always a superior duelist than anakin, which you'd probably think is ridiculous. Hence the reason I believe Anakin being superior to obi wan is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Lord LucienNo, because being a smart engineer an expert pilot has nothing to do with his aggressive fighting style.
As a child slave he was a mechanical prodigy and expert pilot. The EU has given us enough examples of his intellect to override his retardation in Ep. II and III. He's a smart guy and a very capable, clever combatant. But the plot needed him to lose to Obi-Wan, so... dumb that f*cker up for a sec.
To attempt to sum this thread up, I believe its fair to say that there are no clear or obvious sources that actually state who is the better combatant out of the two. However it is totally reasonable for people to have their own opinions. And my OPINION, given the duel on mustafar through the vision of the film, Kenobi is the better duelist.
You are welcome to argue my opinion, but please dont disrespect it. that.
Your opinion is moot next to canon. Again, just because you refuse to accept canon or even bother to read the novel, which states explicitly from Obi-Wan's viewpoint, that Anakin, once fallen to the Dark Side (Vader) is BETTER than him, doesn't make you right. Stop putting ignoring that and stop saying that it is only opinion. IT IS NOT.
Originally posted by Lord LucienLook buddy, maybe i dont know what PIS is, but what I do know is that you actually havnt even attempted to come up with one source that proves anakin being the better duelist. Its not that I refuse to read the novel, its just that I dont have one, and im not going to search and read a whole book just to look for the statements that prove anakin being the better duelist. And you dont know me, so dont make assumptions like that. What canon? when did you give me a source to accept?
Look buddy, I know you don't understand what PIS is. And I know you don't get what we're talking about. I also know you refuse to read the novel and accept canon. So... no point discussing anything with you.I also know you've not spotted the edit button.
Originally posted by Lord LucienWhat are you smoking mate!? IT IS MY OPINION! whether I am wrong or right. And my opinion is not moot, if i can say straight away that its backed up by the fact that it was obi wan that was left standing in the duel, not anakin. And its SO ironic how you have said many, many times that the novel explicitly states that anakin is better, yet you have not come up with a single example backing that statement.
Your opinion is moot next to canon. Again, just because you refuse to accept canon or even bother to [b]read the novel, which states explicitly from Obi-Wan's viewpoint, that Anakin, once fallen to the Dark Side (Vader) is BETTER than him, doesn't make you right. Stop putting ignoring that and stop saying that it is only opinion. IT IS NOT. [/B]
Like ive being trying to say all along, im not stating that im right, only that its my opinion, but you however seem to think you hold all the cards, in which you dont.
Apparently your memory has been destroyed, because I stated a short while ago that I refuse to quote the novels. I've hand-typed out whole passages from the books on two separate occasions years past that prove what I'm arguing, and I refuse to do it a third time. I've already posted (twice) the link to a website where you can download a PDF of every Star Wars EU novel, so you can read the book yourself. Here it is for a third and final time. If you still refuse to read the novel, fell free to buy a novelty dunce hat.
And stop operating under the assumption that your opinion is equivalent to canon. It's not.
Originally posted by Lord LucienFirst of all, I do remember you stating that. I have only recently been on this forum, so thats why I didnt know of your passages. But if you think about it, it doesnt make sense to make a statement and not back it up, regardless of the fact that you have already explaned it in other threads. And secondly, how many times do I have to get it through your head that im not trying to make my opinion equivalent to canon. When did I ever say that!? Im only trying to back up my opinions with examples, not so that they are correct! Do you even know what an opinion is?
Apparently your memory has been destroyed, because I stated a short while ago that I refuse to quote the novels. I've hand-typed out whole passages from the books on two separate occasions years past that prove what I'm arguing, and I refuse to do it a third time. I've already posted (twice) the link to a website where you can download a PDF of every Star Wars EU novel, so you can read the book yourself. Here it is for a third and final time. If you still refuse to read the novel, fell free to buy a novelty dunce hat.And stop operating under the assumption that your opinion is equivalent to canon. It's not.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the Clone Wars which you keep referencing that shows Anakin is so tactical and smart.. is the very movie he makes another stupid move in the highest form of canon. Very much like the one he made agaisnt dooku.. He tried to attack Dooku by himsefl when Kenobi already told him not to and they must do it together... The very time period you reference has he making another stupid bold move. As Neph says... this is a CONSTANT theme throughout ALL the movies and even books. How some of you can argue that it's not in character for him to make bold.. rash.. arrogant moves is beyond me.
You seem to be conveniently forgetting one minor detail. Which was against the same opponent in ROTS Obi-Wan says "Together this time.."
to which Anakin replies "I was juust about to say that.."
And he says this despite being multiple times more powerful than he was in AOTC.
So do you get it yet? It was not in character at all for Jedi Knight Anakin to make a needlessly dumb suicide move.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As far as your quote goes.. I pray you're using good sarcasm.
Whatever. That passage clearly showed Anakin was overpowering Obi-Wan the whole fight. Even the script says a couple of times "Anakin FORCES Obi-Wan back."
Originally posted by Nephthys
When the character has a history of such stupidity, it's CIS.
Where exactly does Jedi Knight Anakin have a history of such stupidity??
I'm still not seeing that. As if Sidious would want such a complete dumb ass as an apprentice.
Originally posted by mnat801
I don't understand how these two examples sum up the fact that anakins the better duelist.
They clearly show he was the superior combatant.
Originally posted by mnat801
It is true, anakin has been very smart in many of TCW episodes, but I also believe he has been reckless at times. A perfect example is when he ignored his master and went to immediately attack dooku in AOTC, resulting in him being hit by force lightning.
Answered above. Jedi Knight Anakin, hero of the CW was not stupid at all. Even when he was reckless he was always very smart the way he went about it.
I'm still waiting for ANY NARRATION during ROTS novelization that states Anakin was the superior duelist. ANY Narration... You guys keep clamoring about such narration.. when none exists. The narration DP posted said NO SUCH THING. It falls in line with Kenobi fighting his defensive style NOT that Anakin was his superior in swordplay.
You guys can scream PIS all you want but that doesn't change the fact that it's more to do with being IN CHARACTER than anything else. There was no PIS. Anakin is prone to making bold rash ARROGANT moves. he felt he was superior to Kenobi and could beat him with ease. He stated as mcuh at the start of the fight. When he believes this... he can be reckless and rash. that is EXACTLY what happened and very much in character for Anakin. That isn't not PIS. You guys need to look up the definition of PIS on this board.
You guys act like Kenobi was terrible outmatched and only one because of the stupid move Kenobi makes. Not true, Kenobi survied longer than Dooku did before the stupid move.. So clearly, Kenobi was very much in the fight.. WAITING FOR HIS OPPORTUNITY.. ya know.. just like his style is MADE TO DO. He got one.. and took advantage. Period. If Kenobi was so concerned why would Yoda trust him and BELIEVE he would kill Anakin. Why did Kenobi state.. I will do what I must... SAYING HE MUST KILL ANAKIN EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T want to. Seems like he and Yoda certainly believed he could compete with and even beat Anakin... Guess what.. they were RIGHT
KT no one's saying Obi-Wan can't compete with Anakin and that he would stomp him any day of the week.
I give Kenobi full credit for lasting so long against Anakin. Much longer than Count Dooku lasted.
And yes Kenobi does usually use good tactics to get the better of his opponents.
All we're arguing is if the duel took place on more even ground, then Anakin would have eventually tired Obi-Wan down and battered through his defenses.
We're also saying that even on UnEven ground, Jedi Knight Anakin would be much much less likely to make dumb moves and even fall for such tactics in the first place.
And I should note that you started this thread and specifically made it "Zone Anakin" as the combatant. That was Anakin with "Pristine Clarity." If you think someone with Pristine Clarity of thought would make such a move then you and I have a very different definition of what Pristine Clarity is.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiYou couldn't have put it any clearer. 😄
I'm still waiting for ANY NARRATION during ROTS novelization that states Anakin was the superior duelist. ANY Narration... You guys keep clamoring about such narration.. when none exists. The narration DP posted said NO SUCH THING. It falls in line with Kenobi fighting his defensive style NOT that Anakin was his superior in swordplay.You guys can scream PIS all you want but that doesn't change the fact that it's more to do with being IN CHARACTER than anything else. There was no PIS. Anakin is prone to making bold rash ARROGANT moves. he felt he was superior to Kenobi and could beat him with ease. He stated as mcuh at the start of the fight. When he believes this... he can be reckless and rash. that is EXACTLY what happened and very much in character for Anakin. That isn't not PIS. You guys need to look up the definition of PIS on this board.
You guys act like Kenobi was terrible outmatched and only one because of the stupid move Kenobi makes. Not true, Kenobi survied longer than Dooku did before the stupid move.. So clearly, Kenobi was very much in the fight.. WAITING FOR HIS OPPORTUNITY.. ya know.. just like his style is MADE TO DO. He got one.. and took advantage. Period. If Kenobi was so concerned why would Yoda trust him and BELIEVE he would kill Anakin. Why did Kenobi state.. I will do what I must... SAYING HE MUST KILL ANAKIN EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T want to. Seems like he and Yoda certainly believed he could compete with and even beat Anakin... Guess what.. they were RIGHT
Originally posted by DARTH POWERYes, on even ground its possible for jedi knight anakin to defeat kenobi, I agree with that. But I also believe that Obi wan could also defeat anakin on flat ground. However, given the fact that kenobi took advantage of the uneven ground on mustafar, anakin/vader as a very skiiled combatant should have also used that to his advantage as well.
KT no one's saying Obi-Wan can't compete with Anakin and that he would stomp him any day of the week.I give Kenobi full credit for lasting so long against Anakin. Much longer than Count Dooku lasted.
And yes Kenobi does usually use good tactics to get the better of his opponents.
All we're arguing is if the duel took place on more even ground, then Anakin would have eventually tired Obi-Wan down and battered through his defenses.
We're also saying that even on UnEven ground, [b]Jedi Knight
Anakin would be much much less likely to make dumb moves and even fall for such tactics in the first place.And I should note that you started this thread and specifically made it "Zone Anakin" as the combatant. That was Anakin with "Pristine Clarity." If you think someone with Pristine Clarity of thought would make such a move then you and I have a very different definition of what Pristine Clarity is. [/B]
Also, based on what you've just said, i've been given the wrong impression of what you guys were actually arguing. But according to lucien, he was stating that anakin/vader IS a superior duelist to kenobi period. Which I immediately disagree with.
Originally posted by mnat801
But according to lucien, he was stating that anakin/vader IS a superior duelist to kenobi period. Which I immediately disagree with.
Anakin clearly is a more Powerful duelist than Kenobi. That's why it was Anakin who kept Forcing Obi-Wan backwards and not the other way around.
And don't give me that crap that it was his style. Because the script makes it clear he was beong FORCED Backwards. He didn't move backwards out of his own accord.
Anakin also kicked him a lot. And those kicks put Obi-Wan on the floor a few times. Whilst I don't remember it happeneing vice versa.