ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

I don't see how Zoneakin doesn't dominate this match up.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't see how Zoneakin doesn't dominate this match up.

Originally posted by mnat801
No, no he didnt.

You need glasses.

Originally posted by mnat801
just like how you didnt see obi wan defeat him on mustafar.

1. Skywalker was a superior combatant to Obi-Wan on Mustafar
2. His judgement was clouded, as was his decision making.
3. Zoneakin>Darth Vader in any form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT I'll get back to your other post later. Don't have time to address it all right now.

During the Dooku fight it's stated in the ROTS Novel and in the ROTS Script that Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. The novel explains it as being due to his seemingly unlimited force reserves.

Whilst the novel clearly states how Dooku was getting tired, the Script states both Obi-Wan and Dooku were getting tired.

To add to this the end of the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight when they're talking, Obi-Wan is seen to be panting whilst Anakin looks like he just took a stroll.

In terms of skill they're on a very similar level. But I'd give Obi-Wan the edge.

But Anakin's Force reserves make him stronger and able to last longer. Not only that but he gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Fair enough DP and I appreciate the narration and where you were coming from in that regard.

DP, your reasoning isn't good enough to make it clear that anakin is the superior fighter.

Your say that the stalemated force push effected anakin a lot less than obi wan. If you watch it again you'll see that anakin was the first person to collide with the wall out of the two. Hmm.. does that mean obi wan's force push is better than anakins? Possibly. And that also explains why anakin was up first.

You can't conclude the fact that anakin was the superior fighter just because he got more kicks in and forced him backwards. It only shows anakins aggressve fighting, and obi wans defensive style of fighting. Now you can't say that it WASNT his style of fighting, otherwise you would see obi wan using his ataru, so it would be a totally different story.

The choke. Well, what else was he supposed to do? He waited until he was almost lying down, and then kicked him. No conflict there. Lucas was saying he was FORCED backwards, not that he was the superior duelist.

It is very clear throughout the movies AND TCW series that anakin does at times makes some silly decisions - in and out of combat. I dont know why this still isnt clear to you. And it beyond me how you could even think of anakin being smarter than obi wan. For me, thats like saying 1+1=3. I'd be suprised if you could even think of one example that proves this.

Its funny how you talk about jedi anakin like he is a totally seperate being from corrupt anakin/vader. Yes, his mind was twisted, and he was corrupt, but remember, its the same person. It is DEFINITELEY in his character to make a stupid move like at the end of the mustafar duel, and so thats probably what obi wan was waiting for. And looking at that result alone, defines the fact that obi wan being the superior combatant.

And its not that were ignoring secondary canon, because we have taken it into account, but we are saying that the secondary canon you've shown isn't good enough to make it clear that anakin is better.

And you can argue that obi wan almost got killed, unfortunately though, he didn't get killed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You need glasses.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Skywalker was a superior combatant to Obi-Wan on Mustafar
2. His judgement was clouded, as was his decision making.
3. Zoneakin>Darth Vader in any form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The script specifically notes Anakin FORCING Obi-Wan backwards. So he wasn't just falling back as part of his strategy or because it was his style. In this case he kept falling back, kept moving away from Anakin because Anakin was overpowering him.

Just because Obi-Wan was surviving doesn't mean they were equal. There was only so long he could keep up his defense and his backing off.

And S66 is right. The defensive fighter shouldn't be the one tiring. The purpose of keeping on the defense is to tire the opponent. Like when Muhammad Ali kept taking hits from George Foreman until all it took was a couple of hits to put Foreman down because HE was the one who was too tired from taking the offensive.

Hold on, what are you trying to get out of the ali vs foreman fight? Because as far as im concerned, this is very similiar to the mustafar duel being in obi wans favour. foreman was on the offensive, ali was on the defensive and waited until the end to finsh foreman off.

I think it would still be close. It would be interesting to see how the fight would turn out on flat ground without hazards.

Originally posted by mnat801
1. explain to me how that is, when it was obi wan left standing.
2. Yes, but your not taking into account obi wan and how he is reluctant to kill his once best friend and padawan, hence why he was always on the defensive.
3. Same person, plus it looked to me like he was really set on killing obi wan, even more so that he did with dooku.
4. Anything else?

Dude, Kenobi taught Anakin everything he knows, he knew the ins and outs of his fighting style. We saw how Zoneakin handled Dooku in seconds, he is in a different league than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dude, Kenobi taught Anakin everything he knows, he knew the ins and outs of his fighting style. We saw how Zoneakin handled Dooku in seconds, he is in a different league than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by mnat801
Yeah, so what? and that logic doesn't work, especially when we have the anakin vs obi wan duel to refer to.

Did you just ignore everything he wrote??

He just brought up a point. That Obi-Wan taught Anakin from Day1 so knows his strengths and weaknesses better than anyone. But in terms of power there's no contest (which he's probably gathered from their respective fights against Count Dooku).

And all you can respond to that is "but they already fought and we saw what happened"

Jeez get an education or something.

Originally posted by mnat801
DP, your reasoning isn't good enough to make it clear that anakin is the superior fighter.

Your say that the stalemated force push effected anakin a lot less than obi wan. If you watch it again you'll see that anakin was the first person to collide with the wall out of the two. Hmm.. does that mean obi wan's force push is better than anakins? Possibly. And that also explains why anakin was up first.

We've seen Anakin flat out tank all of Dooku's force attacks when Obi-Wan clearly can't.

So if you still think Obi-Wan tanked their stalemated Force push as well as Anakin then that would only prove Anakin wasn't fighting to the best of his ability.

If his Force defenses were suddenly that much weaker than they were against Count Dooku then what else was weaker with this Sith Anakin as compared to Jedi Anakin?? And how can you possibly say Jedi Anakin and Sith Anakin were equally powerful??

Originally posted by mnat801
You can't conclude the fact that anakin was the superior fighter just because he got more kicks in and forced him backwards. It only shows anakins aggressve fighting, and obi wans defensive style of fighting. Now you can't say that it WASNT his style of fighting, otherwise you would see obi wan using his ataru, so it would be a totally different story.

If Anakin's kicking and choking him then he's obviously got past Obi-Wan's defense on more than one occasion. Moreso than Obi-Wan got past Anakin's defenses in fact.

If you don't believe kicks are a sign of getting past someone's Saber defenses then why the heck were you arguing that Obi-Wan was superior to CW Maul in Saber combat??

After all Obi-Wan did was land a couple of kicks on him, and I'd say those kicks effected Maul a lot less than Anakin's kick to the face effected Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by mnat801
The choke. Well, what else was he supposed to do? He waited until he was almost lying down, and then kicked him. No conflict there. Lucas was saying he was FORCED backwards, not that he was the superior duelist.

Why was he getting Choked in the first place? Obviously because Anakin got past his Saber defense and right onto his body. A choke is no mere kick either. He very almost killed Obi-Wan right there.

As for your second point if they're fighting equally but one if Forcing the other back, then clearly the one doing the forcing is the Stronger duelist.

The fact that he gets tired less easily during the fight as well also proves he's superior in an all out sword fight on even ground.

Originally posted by mnat801
It is very clear throughout the movies AND TCW series that anakin does at times makes some silly decisions - in and out of combat. I dont know why this still isnt clear to you. And it beyond me how you could even think of anakin being smarter than obi wan. For me, thats like saying 1+1=3. I'd be suprised if you could even think of one example that proves this.

Anakin outsmarted Military genius Admiral Trench when Obi-Wan was telling him "No don't fight him, you can't win."

So clearly his so called reckless decisions are not neccesarily dumb ones at all. Whilst Obi-Wan would have been defeated by Admiral Trench for not taking the initiative that Anakin did, and never being able to prove if he could outsmart him under similar circumstances.

Now it's your turn. Give me one example during the CW series or from any source which depicts Anakin as a Jedi Knight which clearly shows Anakin making a blatantly dumb and stupid combat move.

I'm going to be waiting for this from you. In fact I'm not addressing any of your other points until you give me this. I also want evidence that Obi-Wan's smarter than Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We've seen Anakin flat out tank all of Dooku's force attacks when Obi-Wan clearly can't.

So if you still think Obi-Wan tanked their stalemated Force push as well as Anakin then that would only prove Anakin wasn't fighting to the best of his ability.

If his Force defenses were suddenly that much weaker than they were against Count Dooku then what else was weaker with this Sith Anakin as compared to Jedi Anakin?? And how can you possibly say Jedi Anakin and Sith Anakin were equally powerful??

If Anakin's kicking and choking him then he's obviously got past Obi-Wan's defense on more than one occasion. Moreso than Obi-Wan got past Anakin's defenses in fact.

If you don't believe kicks are a sign of getting past someone's Saber defenses then why the heck were you arguing that Obi-Wan was superior to CW Maul in Saber combat??

After all Obi-Wan did was land a couple of kicks on him, and I'd say those kicks effected Maul a lot less than Anakin's kick to the face effected Obi-Wan.

Why was he getting Choked in the first place? Obviously because Anakin got past his Saber defense and right onto his body. A choke is no mere kick either. He very almost killed Obi-Wan right there.

As for your second point if they're fighting equally but one if Forcing the other back, then clearly the one doing the forcing is the Stronger duelist.

The fact that he gets tired less easily during the fight as well also proves he's superior in an all out sword fight on even ground.

Anakin outsmarted Military genius Admiral Trench when Obi-Wan was telling him "No don't fight him, you can't win."

So clearly his so called reckless decisions are not neccesarily dumb ones at all. Whilst Obi-Wan would have been defeated by Admiral Trench for not taking the initiative that Anakin did, and never being able to prove if he could outsmart him under similar circumstances.

Now it's your turn. Give me one example during the CW series or from any source which depicts Anakin as a Jedi Knight which clearly shows Anakin making a blatantly dumb and stupid combat move.

I'm going to be waiting for this from you. In fact I'm not addressing any of your other points until you give me this. I also want evidence that Obi-Wan's smarter than Anakin.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^ This was very well thought out, IMO. But the thing is, usually in boxing or UFC, the defensive fighter will store his energy while the more aggressive fighter will expend his. However, if the defensive fighter is constantly forced against the ropes, and if his defensive style is not getting him anywhere other than not getting KOed, he will likely lose the fight. With Obi Wan and Anakin, Obi Wan was using up his energy just to last as long as he did, while there was no indications that Anakin was even beginning to get tired, despite the fact that Anakin was being more aggressive and launching most of the attacks. Anakin's force reserves exceeds Obi Wan's by miles. If it weren't for Obi Wan's high ground and Anakin's stupid move, Obi Wan would have most likely been tired out and killed.

Look I have no doubt that ROTS Kenobi can put down ROTS Vader. His entire time as a Sith Lord he is a mental wreck and not at his best. That's not what this thread is about though. This is about Zone Anakin, who is bar Yoda and Luke the greatest duelist in the mythos at least in raw sabers.

In terms of people saying how Anakin is always dumb and reckless and Obi-Wan is much smarter. That's obviously not true at all.

But I will say this.. Obi-Wan keeps his cool during intense situations. Anakin not so much. But that doesn't mean it's normal for him to do a dumb suicide move. Not at all.

Anakin is a tactical and mechanical genius. ROTS Darth Vader however has proved that he is an idiot. He redeems himself strategically somewhat after he gets put in the suit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We've seen Anakin flat out tank all of Dooku's force attacks when Obi-Wan clearly can't.

Give example please.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So if you still think Obi-Wan tanked their stalemated Force push as well as Anakin then that would only prove Anakin wasn't fighting to the best of his ability.

Hahahaha you can't just say he wasn't fighting to the best of his ability. Otherwise I could just say obi wan wasn't either. Plus it is clear that he was putting everything out against obi wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If his Force defenses were suddenly that much weaker than they were against Count Dooku then what else was weaker with this Sith Anakin as compared to Jedi Anakin?? And how can you possibly say Jedi Anakin and Sith Anakin were equally powerful??

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Anakin's kicking and choking him then he's obviously got past Obi-Wan's defense on more than one occasion. Moreso than Obi-Wan got past Anakin's defenses in fact.

OK i'll give you that. But that still does't make him superior, because we see in TCW that asajj forced choked both obi wan and anakin, so in your logic that means shes superior to both of them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you don't believe kicks are a sign of getting past someone's Saber defenses then why the heck were you arguing that Obi-Wan was superior to CW Maul in Saber combat??

I never said that!?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
After all Obi-Wan did was land a couple of kicks on him, and I'd say those kicks effected Maul a lot less than Anakin's kick to the face effected Obi-Wan.

I'm not arguing who did the harder kick.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why was he getting Choked in the first place? Obviously because Anakin got past his Saber defense and right onto his body. A choke is no mere kick either. He very almost killed Obi-Wan right there.

Yes that's correct, but he didn't kill him, as we see obi wan's counter to the force choke.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for your second point if they're fighting equally but one if Forcing the other back, then clearly the one doing the forcing is the Stronger duelist.

Again, you are wrong. Anakin/Vader has an offensive style of fighting, and obi wan has a defensive style of fighting. It's not in obi wan's character to use offensive against anakin like the ataru he used against maul, especially when he is reluctant to kill him. Refer to the Ali vs Foreman fight, foreman was forcing ali back at times, but in the end ali was the better fighter. This immediately proves that your statement of "someone forcing their opponent back clearly means they are superior" is wrong. If you were in fact right, anakin would have eventually killed obi wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that he gets tired less easily during the fight as well also proves he's superior in an all out sword fight on even ground.

Someone being more tired than the other doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin outsmarted Military genius Admiral Trench when Obi-Wan was telling him "No don't fight him, you can't win."

So clearly his so called reckless decisions are not neccesarily dumb ones at all. Whilst Obi-Wan would have been defeated by Admiral Trench for not taking the initiative that Anakin did, and never being able to prove if he could outsmart him under similar circumstances.

Now it's your turn. Give me one example during the CW series or from any source which depicts Anakin as a Jedi Knight which clearly shows Anakin making a blatantly dumb and stupid combat move.

I'm going to be waiting for this from you. In fact I'm not addressing any of your other points until you give me this. I also want evidence that Obi-Wan's smarter than Anakin.

Ok. I can give you many examples off the top of my head:

A major one is the stupid decision he made to become a sith.

Choosing to kill all those tusken raiders to avenge his mother.

In TCW series, season 2 ep 13, anakin recklessly kills the senator.

Running at dooku in AOTC.

Killing Dooku when unarmed.

These are not all combat specific, but are still reckless decisions. Now im not, saying he is always reckless, because in other situations he is very smart. What im arguing is how he is no way near as smart as obi wan - Who imo is the smartest jedi in the Rise of the empire era.