ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

Originally posted by mnat801
Give example please.

CW movie and CW Episode "Crisis on Naboo". Dooku's attacks Anakin with the Force plenty of times but can not take him out.

With Obi-Wan on the other hand, it just takes a mere flick of the wrist for Dooku to destroy him with the Force.

So now you tell me, who can tank Force attacks better, Obi-Wan or Anakin?

Originally posted by mnat801
Hahahaha you can't just say he wasn't fighting to the best of his ability. Otherwise I could just say obi wan wasn't either. Plus it is clear that he was putting everything out against obi wan.

I'm saying IF YOUR CLAIMING that they both took the force push just as well then Obviously Anakin wasn't tanking force attacks as well as he usually can, so obviously Anakin wasn't as powerful as he usually is.

And going all out does not necessarily mean he was able to "Focus" all his power while going all out.

Originally posted by mnat801
OK i'll give you that. But that still does't make him superior, because we see in TCW that asajj forced choked both obi wan and anakin, so in your logic that means shes superior to both of them.

Yes, in that fight, in that situation and in that scenario Ventress was the superior combatant.

Originally posted by mnat801
I never said that!?

I'm not arguing who did the harder kick.

Ah right that wasn't you. Your the one who claimed Obi-Wan could macth Maul in the FORCE!

Originally posted by mnat801
Yes that's correct, but he didn't kill him, as we see obi wan's counter to the force choke.

It was hardly a planned counter Lol. Anakin almost killed Obi-Wan. He almost choked him to death. What did Obi-Wan do that was anywhere near as damaging to Anakin at that point? Nothing. So Anakin was winning the fight. But he just hadn't WON yet.

Originally posted by mnat801
Again, you are wrong. Anakin/Vader has an offensive style of fighting, and obi wan has a defensive style of fighting. It's not in obi wan's character to use offensive against anakin like the ataru he used against maul, especially when he is reluctant to kill him. Refer to the Ali vs Foreman fight, foreman was forcing ali back at times, but in the end ali was the better fighter. This immediately proves that your statement of "someone forcing their opponent back clearly means they are superior" is wrong. If you were in fact right, anakin would have eventually killed obi wan.

No I've got the script to back me up. Your the one making stuff up.

And don't try and use my example against me FOOL!

Ali took hits from Foreman ON PURPOSE! And then it was Foreman who was SO TIRED that Ali easily knocked him out.

Yes Obi-Wan is a defensive fighter and would give ground anyway, but in our example it was Anakin who was FORCING Obi-Wan backwards. He wasn't just voluntarily giving ground due to his style. He had no choice. And then it was Obi-Wan who was getting tired. Anakin wasn't tired at all and was probably only getting stronger.

Plus the kick to the face and the choke show Anakin coming much closer to taking Obi-Wan out than Vice Versa.

So Obi-Wan needed to get outside where the terrain was all over the place. He was never going to win the fight on flat ground.

Originally posted by mnat801
These are not all combat specific,

Bingo!

Apart from rushing at Dooku when he was a PADAWAN, none of the examples you gave were combat specific.

So you have given Zero examples of JEDI KNIGHT Anakin making dumb combat moves as I knew you would. Whereas I've given you an example of Anakin's Rashness proving superior to Obi-Wan's more "sensible" approach in combat, and in the same exmaple Anakin outsmarted the enemy where Obi-Wan apparently could not.

Obi-Wan certainly keeps a Cooler head which is certainly beneficial in combat and intense scenarios.

But that doesn't make him smarter than Anakin. I've shown you how smart Anakin can be evn in his rashness.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin is a tactical and mechanical genius. ROTS Darth Vader however has proved that he is an idiot. He redeems himself strategically somewhat after he gets put in the suit.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
He leads several successful campaigns like when he was a general in the Clone Wars. He knows warfare and is not afraid to do daring things.

After he gets into the suit. Skywalker is a strategical genius. But ROTS Vader is a strategical fool.

The angrier Anakin gets, the stronger and more reckless he becomes. In CW Anakin shows his recklessness in last fight with Dooku walking onto him and not even attempting to resist or dodge Force attacks. In RotS Anakin same way was walking onto Dooku but that time Dooku didn't try to drive him back with Force and as result died. Fighting Kenobi Anakin became even angrier and while he gave better combat performance comparing to fight with Dooku, his recklessness reached top level, so Kenobi could expose that.

If it is Zone Anakin, then Kenobi has easier time defending against him, however, Anakin is not as likely to make foolish moves. So Kenobi at some point will get exhausted and thus lose.

Originally posted by Arhael
The angrier Anakin gets, the stronger and more reckless he becomes. In CW Anakin shows his recklessness in last fight with Dooku walking onto him and not even attempting to resist or dodge Force attacks. In RotS Anakin same way was walking onto Dooku but that time Dooku didn't try to drive him back with Force and as result died. Fighting Kenobi Anakin became even angrier and while he gave better combat performance comparing to fight with Dooku, his recklessness reached top level, so Kenobi could expose that.

This I can agree with. That the madder Anakin gets the more powerful he gets, but then likely more prone to reckless decisions as well.

And though Sith Anakin was probably unleashing the most power through his anger, he was also clearly the most reckless persona of Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael
If it is Zone Anakin, then Kenobi has easier time defending against him, however, Anakin is not as likely to make foolish moves. So Kenobi at some point will get exhausted and thus lose.

Again this I agree with. But I wouldn't call it Zone Anakin, just simply Jedi Anakin, who holds back on his rage but thinks more clearly and who would eventually defeat Obi-Wan with better stamina.

Zone Anakin however is supposed to be the perfect Anakin persona where he actually unleashes his full rage but keeps/achieves pristine clarity of mind while doing so. It was clearly a rare state for him though.

Zone Anakin however is supposed to be the perfect Anakin persona where he actually unleashes his full rage but keeps/achieves pristine clarity of mind while doing so. It was clearly a rare state for him though. [/B]

Originally posted by Arhael
To be honest such thing seems impossible. Either he completely succumbs to his rage and does silly things or holds back and thinks.
In book his pristine clarity was about realization that all he wants is to defeat Dooku and that he doesn't need to restrain himself. I don't see anything that would define him as perfect Anakin in that moment. Whoever invented that term"Zone Anakin"? Perfect Anakin is Anakin that lets go of his anger completely and draws power from other emotions like desire to save others.

Hmm.. I'll have to read the passage on pristine clarity again.

Like in the film (before the limb loss), Anakin rapes Kenobi. The guy who think Kenobi is better than Anakin needs help.

What happened DP... forget about my post.. Here it is again

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I like you DP but you seem to have an issue with making concessions on stuff. So let's try this again. You made the claim that Anakin's strikes (kicks punches) were effecting Kenobi more than vice versa. Yet is that really true. So answer this very basic question...

1. Did Kenob's strike in fact keep Anakin on the ground longer than ANY strike Anakin landed on Kenobi? This clearly makes your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting Kenobi more as not really true.

Then you go... Anakin is clearly a superior fighter because Kenobi had him in a vulnerable position and couldn't finish him.. Ummm okay.. But did you forget this part..

2. DId Anakin have Kenobi in a very similar position with him in the stronger position with more leverage and not able to finish the job. See by your premise and conclusion.. kenobi is clearly the stronger fighter since Anakin couldn't finish the job in such an advantagous position. I would submit, that this is a faulty premise and conclusion, but if you still want to peddle it, we can do so and Kenobi is then superior to Anakin based on him fighting of Anakin is such a vulnerable position. Or we can go.. yeah one is indicative of the other and that isn't proof of being superior.

Next question which I still haven't got a admission or concession on...

3. Are you claiming that there is NO evidence to Anakin making rash bold arrogant moves throughout the mythos? To me there is clear evidence to this and it has nothing to do with uneven ground. Making bold rash moves can happen on any ground and at any time. So is it your claim that such an opening would never present itself to Kenobi?

4. Do you concede that being forced back doesn't equate to losing or going to lose in all situations. It can be, but it also doesn't just as easily. True or no?

5. You also mention that Anakin is far smarter than Kenobi and go out of your way to through around titles like genius etc etc. Did anakin not state that Kenobi is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as windu? Wouldn't being as wise as yoda be a clear form of intelligence and clarity and thus make you very intelligent in your own right?

Let's start there and see where we end up.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I like you DP but you seem to have an issue with making concessions on stuff. So let's try this again. You made the claim that Anakin's strikes (kicks punches) were effecting Kenobi more than vice versa. Yet is that really true.

Yes. He Choked HIM! Almost to death! And he kicked him in the face.

And according to the Script he Forced him back and even almost Trapped him on more than one occasion.

So it's clear Anakin was getting the more lethal licks and controlling the fight for the most part. And it was taking everything for Kenobi to just survive Anakin's onslaught.

Dark Side Anakin completely giving into his Rage is much stronger than Kenobi. Heck he's too strong for Count Dooku.

And in terms of Skill they seemed pretty evenly matched in the movie and novel "Blade for blade they were Idenitcal. Like two halves of the same warrior."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So answer this very basic question...

1. Did Kenob's strike in fact keep Anakin on the ground longer than ANY strike Anakin landed on Kenobi? This clearly makes your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting Kenobi more as not really true.

Well that was actually unarmed combat. Although Anakin actually disarmed Kenobi without a Lightsaber himself. Kenobi never disarmed Anakin as far as we know. It seems Anakin let go of his Lightsaber to Choke Obi-Wan, and try and force his own Lightsaber back on him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Then you go... Anakin is clearly a superior fighter because Kenobi had him in a vulnerable position and couldn't finish him.. Ummm okay.. But did you forget this part..

2. DId Anakin have Kenobi in a very similar position with him in the stronger position with more leverage and not able to finish the job. See by your premise and conclusion.. kenobi is clearly the stronger fighter since Anakin couldn't finish the job in such an advantagous position. I would submit, that this is a faulty premise and conclusion, but if you still want to peddle it, we can do so and Kenobi is then superior to Anakin based on him fighting of Anakin is such a vulnerable position. Or we can go.. yeah one is indicative of the other and that isn't proof of being superior.

Not really. Point is Anakin got the much more lethal licks in. Choking Kenobi almost to death is >> than Kenobi grappling Skywalker to the floor.

And in actual Saber duelling for Obi-Wan not to be able to outduel an Anakin who is lying on the Floor, fending off Obi-Wan's 2 Handed strike with just one hand, clearly shows Obi-Wan was not the superior duelist.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next question which I still haven't got a admission or concession on...

3. Are you claiming that there is NO evidence to Anakin making rash bold arrogant moves throughout the mythos? To me there is clear evidence to this and it has nothing to do with uneven ground. Making bold rash moves can happen on any ground and at any time. So is it your claim that such an opening would never present itself to Kenobi?

I keep saying Bold, Rash movements is not the same thing as Plain out Dumb Combat moves.

Where is all the evidence of Jedi Knight Anakin making Blatantly Dumb and arrogant Combat moves?? I asked mnat to give it to me and he couldn't. Your welcome to find me the evidence.

On the contrary the evidence throughout the CW shows that Skywalker is likely the more Intelligent combat tactician.

It may have been in character for Enraged/Sith Anakin to make such an arrogantly dumb move. But it certainly would not be in character for Jedi Knight Anakin to do such a thing.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. Do you concede that being forced back doesn't equate to losing or going to lose in all situations. It can be, but it also doesn't just as easily. True or no?

It is Kenobi's form to give ground. I've never denied that. But when he does it voluntarily he takes the fight to where he wants to take it.

Being Forced back is different though. That's Anakin controlling the fight moving the fight where he wants to. The script notes on more than one occasion that Anakin has Obi-Wan trapped.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. You also mention that Anakin is far smarter than Kenobi and go out of your way to through around titles like genius etc etc. Did anakin not state that Kenobi is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as windu? Wouldn't being as wise as yoda be a clear form of intelligence and clarity and thus make you very intelligent in your own right?

Padawan Anakin (though still smart) was a frustrated Padawan. What he says is not evidence of anything really. Fact is AOTC Obi-Wan was no where near as Powerful as Mace Windu, or as Wise as Yoda.

But yes I agree Obi-Wan was certainly much Wiser than Anakin. But that has no relevance to combat smarts.

What is relevant though is that Obi-Wan tends to keep the cooler head in battle. This is much more so when comparing him to an enraged Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes. He Choked HIM! Almost to death! And he kicked him in the face.

And according to the Script he Forced him back and even almost Trapped him on more than one occasion.

So it's clear Anakin was getting the more lethal licks and controlling the fight for the most part. And it was taking everything for Kenobi to just survive Anakin's onslaught.

Dark Side Anakin completely giving into his Rage is much stronger than Kenobi. Heck he's too strong for Count Dooku.

And in terms of Skill they seemed pretty evenly matched in the movie and novel "Blade for blade they were Idenitcal. Like two halves of the same warrior."

Well that was actually unarmed combat. Although Anakin actually disarmed Kenobi without a Lightsaber himself. Kenobi never disarmed Anakin as far as we know. It seems Anakin let go of his Lightsaber to Choke Obi-Wan, and try and force his own Lightsaber back on him.

Not really. Point is Anakin got the much more lethal licks in. Choking Kenobi almost to death is >> than Kenobi grappling Skywalker to the floor.

And in actual Saber duelling for Obi-Wan not to be able to outduel an Anakin who is lying on the Floor, fending off Obi-Wan's 2 Handed strike with just one hand, clearly shows Obi-Wan was not [b]the superior duelist.

I keep saying Bold, Rash movements is not the same thing as Plain out Dumb Combat moves.

Where is all the evidence of Jedi Knight Anakin making Blatantly Dumb and arrogant Combat moves?? I asked mnat to give it to me and he couldn't. Your welcome to find me the evidence.

On the contrary the evidence throughout the CW shows that Skywalker is likely the more Intelligent combat tactician.

It may have been in character for Enraged/Sith Anakin to make such an arrogantly dumb move. But it certainly would not be in character for Jedi Knight Anakin to do such a thing.

It is Kenobi's form to give ground. I've never denied that. But when he does it voluntarily he takes the fight to where he wants to take it.

Being Forced back is different though. That's Anakin controlling the fight moving the fight where he wants to. The script notes on more than one occasion that Anakin has Obi-Wan trapped.

Padawan Anakin (though still smart) was a frustrated Padawan. What he says is not evidence of anything really. Fact is AOTC Obi-Wan was no where near as Powerful as Mace Windu, or as Wise as Yoda.

But yes I agree Obi-Wan was certainly much Wiser than Anakin. But that has no relevance to combat smarts.

What is relevant though is that Obi-Wan tends to keep the cooler head in battle. This is much more so when comparing him to an enraged Anakin. [/B]

DP are you moving the goal posts on me.. Bad DP bad DP.

YOU made the claim that Anakin's STRIKES WERE DOING MORE DAMAGE AND MORE POWERFUL THAN KENOBI's .. You made no distinction about armed or unarmed or the nature of the strikes. That was your claim. I DISPROVED said claim. By the way don't think I didn't notice said concession on this as well.. I'll ask again..

1. DID Kenobi's strike put down Anakin for longer than ANY let me repeat ANY strike anakin landed on Kenobi. We all can see it.. we all know it's true.. So, hopefully this time you'll concede and stop moving the goalposts.

More goalpost moving eh... You made the claim that Anakin was superior because he got out of a postion where Kenobi clear had the advantage. That was your claim.. I put in question the validity of said premise and conclusion by pointing out how faulty that logic is. I will ask the question you skirted around again...

2. Did Anakin put Kenobi in a very bad position and escape said position? Did he? The answer is unquestionably yes he did. So does that mean Kenobi is superior because Anakin couldn't fisnish kenobi in such an advantagous position?

So now you're claiming that CANON NARRATION isn't really true and you're ASSUMPTIONS trump canon narration? Surely you jest DP. Anakin said it... Clearly Yoda and Mace feel Obi is quite powerful as he's moved through the ranks rather quickly. We'll just go ahead and take canon narration over your assumptions that Anakin didn't really mean what he said cause he was frustrated. Surely you don't believe that trumps what was said...

You act like he hasn't... He attack on Dooku was rash bold and arrogant and he got dealt with casually and with ease. He losing his lightsaber apparently OVER AND OVER AGAIN isn't something I would call good judgment on his part. Especially with how important a lightsaber is to a jedi. Him even going along with Padame plan to go rescue Kenobi was a lapse in judgement and I submit as arrogant to even think he could do it alone. Again.. He lost his saber. Him killing all the ____ to avenge his mothers death was again a lapse in judgment and a bold move. For God's sake they don't even make Anakin a master or don't want to train him PERIOD because of his metal issues. How you can sit here and go.. Anakin has no issues as a Jedi is beyond me. In the highest form of canon we're beaten over the head with the fact that Anakin has mental issues and make his judgment not sound. You're truly being disingenuous

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DP are you moving the goal posts on me.. Bad DP bad DP.

Nah I'm not bad at all. I'm the "nice" guy who girls claim they want.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOU made the claim that Anakin's STRIKES WERE DOING MORE DAMAGE AND MORE POWERFUL THAN KENOBI's .. You made no distinction about armed or unarmed or the nature of the strikes. That was your claim. I DISPROVED said claim. By the way don't think I didn't notice said concession on this as well.. I'll ask again..

1. DID Kenobi's strike put down Anakin for longer than ANY let me repeat ANY strike anakin landed on Kenobi. We all can see it.. we all know it's true.. So, hopefully this time you'll concede and stop moving the goalposts.

Ok. Anakin was on the floor. I don't think Kenobi was ever lying down. But that doesn't mean Kenobi's licks were as harmful to Anakin as vice versa.

In fact the Choke and the Kick to the face looked like the most hurtful and harmful attacks in that fight (before the chopped arms and legs).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
More goalpost moving eh... You made the claim that Anakin was superior because he got out of a postion where Kenobi clear had the advantage. That was your claim.. I put in question the validity of said premise and conclusion by pointing out how faulty that logic is. I will ask the question you skirted around again...

At this point I was definitely referring to their dueling prowess. The fact that Obi-Wan couldn't out duel an Anakin who was lying down on the floor parrying Obi-Wan's 2 handed strike with one hand, really says a lot.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Did Anakin put Kenobi in a very bad position and escape said position? Did he? The answer is unquestionably yes he did. So does that mean Kenobi is superior because Anakin couldn't fisnish kenobi in such an advantagous position?

It actually wasn't an advantageous position. The advantage Anakin had was that he was the one laying in the licks. The lick being the Choke in this case.

We saw Obi-Wan got out of that by kicking him. There was nothing about his position that was stopping Kenobi hitting him back.

But like I keep saying Anakin was the one who clearly got the more lethal licks in (while the fight was on even ground).

Anakin was the one who kept Forcing Obi-Wan backwards (according to the script), and therby controlling the fight (while it was taking place on even ground).

And Anakin's the one who almost trapped Kenobi twice according to the script (again this was while the fight was taking place on even ground).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So now you're claiming that CANON NARRATION isn't really true and you're ASSUMPTIONS trump canon narration? Surely you jest DP. Anakin said it... Clearly Yoda and Mace feel Obi is quite powerful as he's moved through the ranks rather quickly. We'll just go ahead and take canon narration over your assumptions that Anakin didn't really mean what he said cause he was frustrated. Surely you don't believe that trumps what was said...

It's not my assumption. It's padawan Anakin's assumption. You know the guy you keep saying was so dumb. Why do you want to believe that now he knows all.

Character's opinion are not taken as fact at all. Dooku says to Yoda "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force.." So are we to believe that Dooku and Yoda were equal in the Force because Dooku says so?? Of course not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You act like he hasn't... He attack on Dooku was rash bold and arrogant and he got dealt with casually and with ease. He losing his lightsaber apparently OVER AND OVER AGAIN isn't something I would call good judgment on his part. Especially with how important a lightsaber is to a jedi. Him even going along with Padame plan to go rescue Kenobi was a lapse in judgement and I submit as arrogant to even think he could do it alone. Again.. He lost his saber. Him killing all the ____ to avenge his mothers death was again a lapse in judgment and a bold move. For God's sake they don't even make Anakin a master or don't want to train him PERIOD because of his metal issues. How you can sit here and go.. Anakin has no issues as a Jedi is beyond me. In the highest form of canon we're beaten over the head with the fact that Anakin has mental issues and make his judgment not sound. You're truly being disingenuous

I've addressed all these points. They were all when he was a padawan. And most of them don't relate to being dense in combat.

I had a Phantom Menace comic strip which showed Obi-wan broke his lightsaber when they landed on Naboo, which was why he was running from a droid which Qui-Gon then destroyed.

Qui-Gon gave Obi-Wan the same lecture that Obi-Wan gave to Anakin. Doesn't mean Obi-Wan was destined to be a dumb ass Knight.

There was a whole episode on how Ashoka very clumsily lost her lightsaber, doesn't mean she will be a dumb ass Knight.

Rescuing Obi-Wan from Geonosia was Padme's choice not Anakin's. Doesn't mean Padme would do a dumb suicide jump.

And Anakin was still too young and impatient to be a Master. That has nothing to do with Combat Smarts.

Now let me ask you something KT. If you don't think ROTS Angry Anakin is a superior and/or more powerful duelist to Obi-Wan, then why is it that Obi-Wan stood no chance against Count Dooku whilst Anakin soundly defeated him??

And if it's so easy to take advantage of Angry Anakin's recklessness then why wasn't the very smart Count Dooku able to do a thing to stop Anakin killing him??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah I'm not bad at all. I'm the "nice" guy who girls claim they want.

Ok. Anakin was on the floor. I don't think Kenobi was ever lying down. But that doesn't mean Kenobi's licks were as harmful to Anakin as vice versa.

In fact the Choke and the Kick to the face looked like the most hurtful and harmful attacks in that fight (before the chopped arms and legs).

At this point I was definitely referring to their dueling prowess. The fact that Obi-Wan couldn't out duel an Anakin who was lying down on the floor parrying Obi-Wan's 2 handed strike with one hand, really says a lot.

It actually wasn't an advantageous position. The advantage Anakin had was that he was the one laying in the licks. The lick being the Choke in this case.

We saw Obi-Wan got out of that by kicking him. There was nothing about his position that was stopping Kenobi hitting him back.

But like I keep saying Anakin was the one who clearly got the more lethal licks in (while the fight was on even ground).

Anakin was the one who kept Forcing Obi-Wan backwards (according to the script), and therby controlling the fight (while it was taking place on even ground).

And Anakin's the one who almost trapped Kenobi twice according to the script (again this was while the fight was taking place on even ground).

It's not my assumption. It's padawan Anakin's assumption. You know the guy you keep saying was so dumb. Why do you want to believe that now he knows all.

Character's opinion are not taken as fact at all. Dooku says to Yoda "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force.." So are we to believe that Dooku and Yoda were equal in the Force because Dooku says so?? Of course not.

I've addressed all these points. They were all when he was a padawan. And most of them don't relate to being dense in combat.

I had a Phantom Menace comic strip which showed Obi-wan broke his lightsaber when they landed on Naboo, which was why he was running from a droid which Qui-Gon then destroyed.

Qui-Gon gave Obi-Wan the same lecture that Obi-Wan gave to Anakin. Doesn't mean Obi-Wan was destined to be a dumb ass Knight.

There was a whole episode on how Ashoka very clumsily lost her lightsaber, doesn't mean she will be a dumb ass Knight.

Rescuing Obi-Wan from Geonosia was Padme's choice not Anakin's. Doesn't mean Padme would do a dumb suicide jump.

And Anakin was still too young and impatient to be a Master. That has nothing to do with Combat Smarts.

Now let me ask you something KT. If you don't think ROTS Angry Anakin is a superior and/or more powerful duelist to Obi-Wan, then why is it that Obi-Wan stood no chance against Count Dooku whilst Anakin soundly defeated him??

And if it's so easy to take advantage of Angry Anakin's recklessness then why wasn't the very smart Count Dooku able to do a thing to stop Anakin killing him??

Well the first part was partly a concession.. but then you tried to submit something illogical in place of logic. If one UFC puts another on the ground with a strike for a significant amount of time and longer than any other strike during the fight.. Would I then go.. well it looked like this other strikes did more damage? Of course not, that would be illogical and going against the plain presentation of the movie. Flash Fact: Kenobi in fact landed the most harmself strike of the fight NOT anakin like you claimed.

Next, you act like they were having a full on sword fight with anakin on his back and Kenobi above him. They weren't. It was a block and then kicking kenobi away very quickly. That proves very little and certainly not the same as having a full fledge fight off his back. Point is, both had the other in a dangerous and advantagous position and neither was able to get the job done. However, I submit that neither situation proved either was superior.

Characters opition are taken as fact unless proven otherwise through other facts in evidence. Come on buddy, this is basic movie watching or comic reading stuff. If we didn't take people's statements as facts.. there would be no plot.. there would be no facts.. there would be NOTHING. We absolutly take them as fact unless contradicted by other facts. So, it's a fact that Anakin (who you claim is so smart and genius.. see what I did there?) did state Kenobi is as wise as yoda and as powerful as Mace. He in fact probably believed that and could feel that.. being a genius and more force sensitive than most others. Coupled with the fact that Kenobi moved through the ranks seemingly faster than most, if not all others, speaks to Anakin being pretty close to spot on. Maybe a little hyperbole, but mostly facts.

You keep saying it was HER choice... It wasn't HER choice.. he was there to protect her, and in the end, had the authority and power to say no.. that isn't a good idea. Which of course woud've been the prudent thing to do. Not get captured while losing your saber AGAIN.

To answer your question.. we need to examine the FACTS that you omit and explain how this was possible. First, Dooku was able to deal with Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. So clearly, at one point Anakin wasn't enough. A reason why he was enough are two fold... Anakin first gained some clarity and started to tap into the darkside.. Cool.. However, the other major factor was that Dooku was already tired from taking on both of them at the same time. This was expressed very clearly in the script. Further, it's a difference in style. Dooku's style has a very distinct disadvantage against Anakin's style if he can't finish it early. Dooku's style will always get overwhelmed eventually with Anakin's style and ESPECIALLY when the style is by someone like Anakin who is also in a pissed off mode and taxing the reserves of Dooku. That is always a recipe for bad things. Kenobi on the other hand.. doesn't need to finish it early. His goal is to defend.. give ground.. defend.. until his opponent gets tired or an opening arises. His style isn't taxed like Dooku's. So that is the reasonS why Dooku would susceptible to Anakin's tyle as opposed to Kenobi's. Kenobi's doesn't tax his reserves like an attacking full pressure Anakin's. As they say.. style's make fights and Kenobi has the better style to beat Anakin that Dooku.. wouldn't you agree?

Kurupt, Anakin learned everything from Kenobi. They were equal in skill but superior power makes Anakin better combatant. However, defensive style allows defending against stronger and more skilled opponents.
Sidious66 gave example that on UFA ring that a fighter can save energy and prevent being KOed by constantly moving away.
Similarly from my own experience I know and checked that whatever OMG skill my opponent has, he will not be able to do anything to me as long as I move away.

Yes, it is part of Kenobi's style, yet, he had no other choice as it was the only way to survive against much stronger opponent.

It's advantage of defensive style in general that its practitioner can defend even against much stronger opponent. Had Kenobi used Ataru, which he is master of as well, he would get stomped quite quickly.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Characters opition are taken as fact unless proven otherwise through other facts in evidence. Come on buddy, this is basic movie watching or comic reading stuff. If we didn't take people's statements as facts.. there would be no plot.. there would be no facts.. there would be NOTHING. We absolutly take them as fact unless contradicted by other facts. So, it's a fact that Anakin (who you claim is so smart and genius.. see what I did there?) did state Kenobi is as wise as yoda and as powerful as Mace. He in fact probably believed that and could feel that.. being a genius and more force sensitive than most others. Coupled with the fact that Kenobi moved through the ranks seemingly faster than most, if not all others, speaks to Anakin being pretty close to spot on. Maybe a little hyperbole, but mostly facts.

Oh no characters opinions are not taken as hard fact at all. The credibility of their opinions would depend on the credibility of the character, and his intentions for saying such a thing.

For instance an opinion of Yoda's would clearly hold a lot more weight than an opinion of Anakin's. And an opinion on Obi-Wan coming from a third party who has no real bias would hold up better than an opinion on Obi-Wan coming from Obi-Wan's own padawan.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep saying it was HER choice... It wasn't HER choice.. he was there to protect her, and in the end, had the authority and power to say no.. that isn't a good idea. Which of course woud've been the prudent thing to do. Not get captured while losing your saber AGAIN.

He was actually saying he can't, Master Windu instructed him not to. She convinced him otherwise. So are you claiming now that both Padme and Anakin are dumb??

And btw if they didn't go to rescue Obi-Wan, then he probably would have died in the arena fighting all the monsters on his own. So I'm not sure if that was a dumb move at all. Probably more of brave one.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
To answer your question.. we need to examine the FACTS that you omit and explain how this was possible. First, Dooku was able to deal with Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. So clearly, at one point Anakin wasn't enough. A reason why he was enough are two fold... Anakin first gained some clarity and started to tap into the darkside.. Cool.. However, the other major factor was that Dooku was already tired from taking on both of them at the same time. This was expressed very clearly in the script. Further, it's a difference in style. Dooku's style has a very distinct disadvantage against Anakin's style if he can't finish it early. Dooku's style will always get overwhelmed eventually with Anakin's style and ESPECIALLY when the style is by someone like Anakin who is also in a pissed off mode and taxing the reserves of Dooku. That is always a recipe for bad things. Kenobi on the other hand.. doesn't need to finish it early. His goal is to defend.. give ground.. defend.. until his opponent gets tired or an opening arises. His style isn't taxed like Dooku's. So that is the reasonS why Dooku would susceptible to Anakin's tyle as opposed to Kenobi's. Kenobi's doesn't tax his reserves like an attacking full pressure Anakin's. As they say.. style's make fights and Kenobi has the better style to beat Anakin that Dooku.. wouldn't you agree?

Th script notes Anakin getting stronger whilst both Obi-Wan and Dooku are getting tired. The novel pretty much puts Dooku getting tired all down to Anakin and having very little to do with Obi-Wan.

Plus Anakin has fought Dooku by himself in the CW on more than one occasion and consistently stalemates him.

In terms of their different styles, I agree Obi-Wan's form allows him to take Anakin's full onslaught better than Dooku can. But I'm not sure Obi-Wan's abilities give him a better chance at defeating Anakin than Dooku's. After all Dooku's exceptional force prowess is useful.

But I'm curious how you rank the 3 in overall power (in combat terms).

I would personally rank them as Anakin > Dooku > Obi-Wan. I may be willing to concede that due to Dooku's exceptional force prowess that it could be more like this: Anakin >/= Dooku > Obi-Wan.

But either way I have to have Obi-Wan at the bottom of that trio.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kurupt, Anakin learned everything from Kenobi. They were equal in skill but superior power makes Anakin better combatant. However, defensive style allows defending against stronger and more skilled opponents.
Sidious66 gave example that on UFA ring that a fighter can save energy and prevent being KOed by constantly moving away.
Similarly from my own experience I know and checked that whatever OMG skill my opponent has, he will not be able to do anything to me as long as I move away.

Yes, it is part of Kenobi's style, yet, he had no other choice as it was the only way to survive against much stronger opponent.

It's advantage of defensive style in general that its practitioner can defend even against much stronger opponent. Had Kenobi used Ataru, which he is master of as well, he would get stomped quite quickly.

👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh no characters opinions are not taken as hard fact at all. The credibility of their opinions would depend on the credibility of the character, and his intentions for saying such a thing.

For instance an opinion of Yoda's would clearly hold a lot more weight than an opinion of Anakin's. And an opinion on Obi-Wan coming from a third party who has no real bias would hold up better than an opinion on Obi-Wan coming from Obi-Wan's own padawan.

He was actually saying he can't, Master Windu instructed him not to. She convinced him otherwise. So are you claiming now that both Padme and Anakin are dumb??

And btw if they didn't go to rescue Obi-Wan, then he probably would have died in the arena fighting all the monsters on his own. So I'm not sure if that was a dumb move at all. Probably more of brave one.

Th script notes Anakin getting stronger whilst both Obi-Wan and Dooku are getting tired. The novel pretty much puts Dooku getting tired all down to Anakin and having very little to do with Obi-Wan.

Plus Anakin has fought Dooku by himself in the CW on more than one occasion and consistently stalemates him.

In terms of their different styles, I agree Obi-Wan's form allows him to take Anakin's full onslaught better than Dooku can. But I'm not sure Obi-Wan's abilities give him a better chance at defeating Anakin than Dooku's. After all Dooku's exceptional force prowess is useful.

But I'm curious how you rank the 3 in overall power (in combat terms).

I would personally rank them as Anakin > Dooku > Obi-Wan. I may be willing to concede that due to Dooku's exceptional force prowess that it could be more like this: Anakin >/= Dooku > Obi-Wan.

But either way I have to have Obi-Wan at the bottom of that trio.

Ummm yes there are exceptions where character's statements aren't facts, yet my friend, those are EXCEPTIONS to the rule not the rule. The rule is.. we take characters statements as facts the majority of time. As you well know.. how else would we know what the hell is going on in a movie if we didn't accept what was coming out of people's mouths. That is exactly how a plot is developed and how characters are developed. There can be no other way.

My friend can say let's go jump off the golden gate bridge... adn I say I don't think that is a good idea.. but still jump. Does it make me any smarter or any better of a decision because I said I didn't think it was a good idea? No, it was still a rash bold move and a dumb move. He had authority and the power to say no and he didn't do so. Period.

Can I please see the narration that states Dooku was getting tired because of Anakin alone and not Kenobi also helping out. I've never seen said narration so I'm curious to see it. Further, in the highest form of canon.. the clone wars... Anakin got wtf pwned twice by dooku.. So this he's stalemated Dooku when they've met just isn't true.

To answer your question... Not zone anakin but just normal levels I put Dooku above Anakin and Kenobi overall. This is including force powers and sword play. I consider Anakin and Kenobi close to equal with maybe a slight edge to Anakin if you include force reserves.. strength and potential. The big problem though is I give Kenobi the edge in sword fighting only. He knows Anakin in and out and taught him pretty much all he knows. I believe in a straight up sword fight.. Kenobi wins more times than not. Let's say 6/10

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm yes there are exceptions where character's statements aren't facts, yet my friend, those are EXCEPTIONS to the rule not the rule. The rule is.. we take characters statements as facts the majority of time. As you well know.. how else would we know what the hell is going on in a movie if we didn't accept what was coming out of people's mouths. That is exactly how a plot is developed and how characters are developed. There can be no other way.

Well it's not really the way we interpret things here. Hard facts we usually get from things like Source Books, Canon statements e.g. something Lucas has said or something in the script. Opinions would probably be accepted if it's never contradicted and seems to be accepted by everyone in the SWU.

Otherwise if we are to take your route, are we to believe that Count Dooku is Yoda's equal in the Force because he said so??

And do you honestly believe that as of AOTC, Kenobi was as Powerful as Mace Windu?? I mean AOTC Kenobi was not even a match for Kit Fisto as seen in the novel Cestus Deception which takes place very shortly after AOTC.

I would say Mace Windu calling Obi-Wan "The Master of Soresu" is a far more reliable opinion to take than frustrated padawan Anakin's.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
My friend can say let's go jump off the golden gate bridge... adn I say I don't think that is a good idea.. but still jump. Does it make me any smarter or any better of a decision because I said I didn't think it was a good idea? No, it was still a rash bold move and a dumb move. He had authority and the power to say no and he didn't do so. Period.

Yeah but by going he probably saved Kenobi's life. Mace and crew couldn't get there as fast as Anakin and Padme could. Also as far as they knew there was also a chance Padme could negotiate a diplomatic solution or at least attempt to do so while the Jedi arrive.

How all this relates to it being normal for Anakin (as an accomplished Jedi Knight and hero of the Clone Wars) years later to make a dumb suicide move in combat is beyond me.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Can I please see the narration that states Dooku was getting tired because of Anakin alone and not Kenobi also helping out. I've never seen said narration so I'm curious to see it. Further, in the highest form of canon.. the clone wars... Anakin got wtf pwned twice by dooku.. So this he's stalemated Dooku when they've met just isn't true.

It's heavily implied in the novel when we are told that every strike of Anakin drains Count Dooku more than the effort it took Count Dooku to throw Obi-Wan across the room. Think about that.. Every single strike of Anakin's draining Dooku that much! So of course it had little to do with Kenobi as throwing him across the room took less energy than just 1 of Anakin's strikes.

Besides in the movie Kenobi doesn't fight him for very long at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
To answer your question... Not zone anakin but just normal levels I put Dooku above Anakin and Kenobi overall. This is including force powers and sword play. I consider Anakin and Kenobi close to equal with maybe a slight edge to Anakin if you include force reserves.. strength and potential. The big problem though is I give Kenobi the edge in sword fighting only. He knows Anakin in and out and taught him pretty much all he knows. I believe in a straight up sword fight.. Kenobi wins more times than not. Let's say 6/10

Problem is Anakin is pretty much consistently stalemating Count Dooku in the CW. So I don't see how by ROTS Count Dooku would still be more powerful than Anakin.

But I can appreciate Obi-Wan's edge over Dooku in having taught Anakin.

But even Jedi Anakin restraining his strength and anger is still stronger than Kenobi, and has far more in terms of reserves. So he will eventually take Obi-Wan down. And he's far far less likely in that Jedi frame of mind to make a dumb or reckless combat move. In fact I'm certain he wouldn't.

He knows Anakin in and out and taught him pretty much all he knows.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which means that Anakin knows him inside out as well as he learned everything from him and on top of that learned more by himself. Anakin practices different style, which Kenobi never practiced.