Can any non-abstract defeat the Celestials?

Originally posted by ODG
Basically, this is the argument:

Me: "Magus at full power is really impressive."
zopzop: "He's not impressive, he got beat up by Rogue, Nightcrawler and Colossus."
Me: "Stop trying to lowball. That was Magus at his weakest, most diminished form."
zopzop: "I'm not lowballing. He was never depowered."
Me: "What? Of course he was. In one instance, he's bigger than stars and tearing apart suns and chucking em at planets, but on Earth he was just man-sized and wrestling Rogue."
zopzop: "So you have zero proof he was depowered since it was never said. Only his size changed, nothing else."
Me: "..."

over

It's hard to think of the proper adverb to accompany the level of stupid that is. Completely stupid? Spectacularly stupid? Horrifically stupid? I don't think any adverb would do it justice. Not when he's been trying to push the same argument for six pages.

Originally posted by ODG
Basically, this is the argument:

Me: "Magus at full power is really impressive."
zopzop: "He's not impressive, he got beat up by Rogue, Nightcrawler and Colossus."
Me: "Stop trying to lowball. That was Magus at his weakest, most diminished form."
zopzop: "I'm not lowballing. He was never depowered."
Me: "What? Of course he was. In one instance, he's bigger than stars and tearing apart suns and chucking em at planets, but on Earth he was just man-sized and wrestling Rogue."
zopzop: "So you have zero proof he was depowered since it was never said. Only his size changed, nothing else."
Me: "..."

over

It's hard to think of the proper adverb to accompany the level of stupid that is. Completely stupid? Spectacularly stupid? Horrifically stupid? I don't think any adverb would do it justice. Not when he's been trying to push the same argument for six pages.

OR

b) You are right and he was diminished (despite the fact that this is mentioned nowhere). The ONLY things he did in NM 18/19/21 is tear that star apart and chase his son through space before landing on Earth. If you are correct and he was diminished by the time he fought Rogue/Colossus/Nightcrawler, then the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation as to why he was diminished was because he overexerted himself tearing that star apart and chasing his son through space. So much for your "casually tore a star apart" theory. And this places his best feat in the herald level range like I've been saying all along. I even gave you examples of heralds doing impressive things and your only comeback was they didn't do them "casually". Well if you are correct about Magus being diminished by the time he went up against those three X-Men, Magus didn't "casually" tear that star up or "casually" chase his son across space.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Could you at least tell me where it was stated he was 45 million miles tall?

Originally posted by ODG
Maybe ask Horrificus?

Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm digging. Try to have something tonight.

To my knowledge he's ONLY appeared or is mentioned in FOUR issues : NM 18, 19, 21, and UXM 192 that are covered by his handbook entry. If it was gonna be anywhere it'd be there. But it isn't. Even Comicvine confirms it, it's not there.

Magus wouldn't be nearly the first character to be depowered without any explanation or whatsoever, it happens very often to villains. Pick Korvac for example, he was striving to get Galactus's ship during a Captain America run despite the fact he had already got into the same ship before, no explanation was even given. The reason why it happened is pretty clear too: the part of Korvac was initially meant for Kang -who is mid-herald opposite to Korvac who is trans+ -, so his powerlevel was downgraded to fill the bill. A character being depowered from one showing to another happens very often...

Originally posted by Bentley
Magus wouldn't be nearly the first character to be depowered without any explanation or whatsoever, it happens very often to villains. Pick Korvac for example, he was striving to get Galactus's ship during a Captain America run despite the fact he had already got into the same ship before, no explanation was even given. The reason why it happened is pretty clear too: the part of Korvac was initially meant for Kang -who is mid-herald opposite to Korvac who is trans+ -, so his powerlevel was downgraded to fill the bill. A character being depowered from one showing to another happens very often...

In Magus' case it was 3 issues. Tore a star in half in NM 18, chases his son for two more issues (NM 19 and 21), then got his ass handed to him by three X-Men in UXM 192.

That's gotta be some kind of record.

Well, to be honest I have no idea of that precedent, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if that happened because of some editorial crapfest, I mean, it's Marvel. Like, remember the time Vanguard got resurrected by accident?

If it was a mistake it would be an awesome record indeed, I might report it to CBR to see if they can look into it...

If Apocalypse had succeeded with the 12, wouldn't he be able to beat the Celestials? I would also assume that anyone capable of annihilating matter would at the very least be capable of destroying a Celestial's corporeal form. That or anyone capable of manipulating hyperspace. So eliminating Jean Grey since she and the Phoenix are more or less always the same and therefore cosmic and any other character who is cosmically powered, that leaves Invisible Woman, Magneto, Polaris, Berzerker (hypothetically if he trained up his powers), Molecule Man, and Alpha (since by now, god knows what he's evolved into).
On the other hand, just like killing Galactus, this is still meaningless since they can rebuild themselves and all their other ridiculous powers.

Well I'd still like to see the handbook...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well I'd still like to see the handbook...

Muhammad Ali.

Originally posted by zopzop
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3fl3HLLzwUA/T9IZCsxLiQI/AAAAAAAAF1k/hjG0g78aCt0/s1600/Magus_Joel+Priddy.jpg
Thank you google.

Thanks.

That page does support what ODG was saying, though... it says he's weaker when he's smaller.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Thanks.

That page does support what ODG was saying, though... it says he's weaker when he's smaller.

Make of it what you will.

Originally posted by zopzop
Either-
a) I'm right and he was never diminished from NM 18/19/21 up till he fought the X-Men in UXM 192 since it was never stated on panel anywhere in those four issues. There were NO other issues he appeared in or was mentioned in aside from NM 18/19/21. The very next time he's seen or heard from is UXM 192. No hint or anything else was shown or mentioned on panel that he was somehow weakened.

OR

b) You are right and he was diminished (despite the fact that this is mentioned nowhere). The ONLY things he did in NM 18/19/21 is tear that star apart and chase his son through space before landing on Earth. If you are correct and he was diminished by the time he fought Rogue/Colossus/Nightcrawler, then the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation as to why he was diminished was because he overexerted himself tearing that star apart and chasing his son through space. So much for your "casually tore a star apart" theory. And this places his best feat in the herald level range like I've been saying all along. I even gave you examples of heralds doing impressive things and your only comeback was they didn't do them "casually". Well if you are correct about Magus being diminished by the time he went up against those three X-Men, Magus didn't "casually" tear that star up or "casually" chase his son across space.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what was the length of time between his initial uber showing and his depowerment.

In Magus' case it was 3 issues. Tore a star in half in NM 18, chases his son for two more issues (NM 19 and 21), then got his ass handed to him by three X-Men in UXM 192.

That's gotta be some kind of record.

You've already conceded you were entirely wrong on the issue at hand here. All your bullsh1t lowballing about how Magus lost to Rogue, Nightcrawler and Colossus in his weakest/diminished form was meaningless when discussing the character's full power as demonstrated on-panel. Your comical efforts to argue that he was never depowered and only his size changed have been proven wrong.

You're a liar and a crappy one at that. I don't know why you all of a sudden decided to hate on Magus, but your garbage attempts to lowball and twist his appearances around is the lowest form of trolling on these boards: lying surreptitiously about a completely obscure fictional comic character despite being called out on it multiple times. Get a new hobby.

Originally posted by ODG
What the hell are you talking about? I already told you that you're falsely assuming based on absolutely no evidence at all, that Magus did nothing but travel after Warlock since New Mutants #18. That's why your "choices" are completely stupid false absolutes. It was August 1984 when we saw Magus tear apart a sun in half and it was April 1985 when we finally saw him again when he finally landed on Earth -- [b]a period of 9 whole months of published comics. Don't presume to declare unilaterally that he did nothing during all that time. You don't know sh1t about what happened during those nine months to when he finally landed on Earth in his diminished form unless you've got proof.

If you have proof he appeared ANYWHERE else between NM18,19,21 and UXM 192 and this caused him to somehow be depowered produce it. Hell, if you have ANY appearances of him anywhere outside of NM18-21 up till his showdown with the X-Men produce it.

Utter phucking bullsh1t. [b]NINE MONTHS. Trying to pretend that the jump from New Mutants #18 to Uncanny X-Men #192 was just three comics later is sadly, yet another lie on your part. And you're one step away from being reported again. You lie about the length of time that passed between when we first saw Magus in his giant star-sized form to when he finally landed on Earth, you're reported for lying and intentionally misleading.

You've already conceded you were entirely wrong on the issue at hand here. All your bullsh1t lowballing about how Magus lost to Rogue, Nightcrawler and Colossus in his weakest/diminished form was meaningless when discussing the character's full power as demonstrated on-panel. Your comical efforts to argue that he was never depowered and only his size changed have been proven wrong.

You're a liar and a crappy one at that. I don't know why you all of a sudden decided to hate on Magus, but your garbage attempts to lowball and twist his appearances around is the lowest form of trolling on these boards: lying surreptitiously about a completely obscure fictional comic character despite being called out on it multiple times. Get a new hobby. [/B]

Now either-
a) I'm right and he was never diminished from NM 18/19/21 up till he fought the X-Men in UXM 192 since it was never stated on panel anywhere in those four issues. There were NO other issues he appeared in or was mentioned in aside from NM 18/19/21. The very next time he's seen or heard from is UXM 192. No hint or anything else was shown or mentioned on panel that he was somehow weakened.

OR

b) You are right and he was diminished (despite the fact that this is mentioned nowhere). The ONLY things he did in NM 18/19/21 is tear that star apart and chase his son through space before landing on Earth. If you are correct and he was diminished by the time he fought Rogue/Colossus/Nightcrawler, then the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation as to why he was diminished was because he overexerted himself tearing that star apart and chasing his son through space. So much for your "casually tore a star apart" theory. And this places his best feat in the herald level range like I've been saying all along. I even gave you examples of heralds doing impressive things and your only comeback was they didn't do them "casually". Well if you are correct about Magus being diminished by the time he went up against those three X-Men, Magus didn't "casually" tear that star up or "casually" chase his son across space.

To anyone following this "debate" find the scans or issues or even just look at comicvine for the summaries of the issues in question and you'll see I'm right.

Originally posted by zopzop
It doesn't work that way. On panel Magus did NOTHING but tear a star apart and chase his son through space before confronting the three X-Men. I even gave you issue numbers in order so ANYONE can verify that I'm telling the truth (Comicvine even confirms this).
Magus first appearance NM 18 tears a star up and then chases Warlock. NM 19 Magus and Warlock whiz by the Starjammer on their way to Earth. NM 21 Warlock lands on Earth. UXM 192 Magus lands on Earth. Nothing else is shown or mentioned about Magus anywhere else during this time. He has NO OTHER showings anywhere.

Originally posted by zopzop
If you have proof he appeared ANYWHERE else between NM18,19,21 and UXM 192 and this caused him to somehow be depowered produce it. Hell, if you have ANY appearances of him anywhere outside of NM18-21 up till his showdown with the X-Men produce it.

Originally posted by zopzop
But the fact remains, from his initial appearance it was only three comics till his humiliation in UXM 192 (NM 19, NM 21, UXM 192).

Originally posted by ODG
So you have no proof what Magus did off-panel in the [b]nine months between his initial star-sized appearance and his eventual arrival on Earth? Good job. You like your "you have no proof" schtick being thrown back in your face? Except here that's how the burden of proof works because you're trying to force us to conclude Magus did absolutely nothing else while he remained in nine months of publishing limbo to establish pretense for your supposedly two exclusive choices. We don't know what happened is precisely the point. We don't know if it was his choice to sneak around Earth to avoid unnecessary conflict. We do know that nine months passed. So you can stop trying to make excuses concerning your garbage "only three issues later" rationale. Reported for trying to repeatedly mislead people into thinking Magus immediately depowered within the space of three issues. It was nine months between the publishing of New Mutants #18 and Uncanny X-Men #192. You were caught in the lie. You're not supposed to keep trying to sell the lie. Your audacity astounds. And we don't have to tolerate it. [/B]

And what did he do in those three issues (since NM 18)? He was chasing his son around space and finally catching up to him on Earth. Nothing else was even hinted at.

Now either-
a) I'm right and he was never diminished from NM 18/19/21 up till he fought the X-Men in UXM 192 since it was never stated on panel anywhere in those four issues. There were NO other issues he appeared in or was mentioned in aside from NM 18/19/21. The very next time he's seen or heard from is UXM 192. No hint or anything else was shown or mentioned on panel that he was somehow weakened.

OR

b) You are right and he was diminished (despite the fact that this is mentioned nowhere). The ONLY things he did in NM 18/19/21 is tear that star apart and chase his son through space before landing on Earth. If you are correct and he was diminished by the time he fought Rogue/Colossus/Nightcrawler, then the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation as to why he was diminished was because he overexerted himself tearing that star apart and chasing his son through space. So much for your "casually tore a star apart" theory. And this places his best feat in the herald level range like I've been saying all along. I even gave you examples of heralds doing impressive things and your only comeback was they didn't do them "casually". Well if you are correct about Magus being diminished by the time he went up against those three X-Men, Magus didn't "casually" tear that star up or "casually" chase his son across space.

To anyone following this "debate" find the scans or issues or even just look at comicvine for the summaries of the issues in question and you'll see I'm right. Call the Mod in here and let him get the issues, he'll see for himself/herself too.

Originally posted by zopzop
But it was ONLY three issues later. With NO OTHER appearances anywhere else.
New Mutants 18 Aug 1984
New Mutants 19 Sept 1984
New Mutants 21 Nov 1984
Uncanny X-Men 192 April 1985

Why am I even explaining this? You are such a stupendous troll.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what did he do in those three issues (since NM 18)? He was chasing his son around space and finally catching up to him on Earth. Nothing else was even hinted at.

Originally posted by zopzop
Call the Mod in here and let him get the issues, he'll see for himself/herself too.

People lowball comic characters all the time. Nothing new. But you've been trolling this character for six pages now. And you've been lying multiple times to do it. You demanded multiple scans. And even when you got them which exposed your lies and proved you wrong, you kept lying. You accused me of lying and rejected a battlezone and neutral mod ruling on the issue. Now you're trying to mislead people and leaving out context intentionally to do it. This isn't a simple case of lowballing anymore. You're blatantly lying and you've been doing it for pages on end. That's against the rules.

And I will be PMing a mod on this shortly.

Originally posted by ODG
This is unbelievable. You're still trying to mislead people into thinking only three comics passed? Do you know how long it took for Magus to reappear? [b]NINE MONTHS. Just because he makes his reappearance in another comic, nine months later, doesn't mean that's exactly where he left off chronologically and nothing's happened in between. I can't believe you have the audacity to suggest that. Galactus appeared in Fantastic Four #77 in August 1968 and then five months later reappears somewhere else entirely in Thor #160 in January 1969. You don't just assume nothing happened to Galactus in between that period of time and he just picked up right where he left off because we don't see what happened off-panel.

Why am I even explaining this? You are such a stupendous troll. WHO CARES. Nine months passed. All off-panel. You can't force us to accept absolutely nothing happened on-panel. Something obviously did happen on-panel since he was hot on his tails in one issue and when we finally see him nine months later, he ends up landing on Earth months after Warlock had already arrived. I've reported you for lying and intentionally misleading several times. You lied that Magus doesn't have different power levels and continued to do so after scans proved he did. You lied that Magus only changes size and continued to do so after scans proved otherwise. You lied that Magus was never diminished between his first appearance and his re-emergence and continued to do so after scans proved it. Then you tried to mislead people into thinking if he was depowered, it all happened in three issues and you keep trying to mislead people after you were corrected and it was, in fact, nine months that had passed.

People lowball comic characters all the time. Nothing new. But you've been trolling this character for six pages now. And you've been lying multiple times to do it. You demanded multiple scans. And even when you got them which exposed your lies and proved you wrong, you kept lying. You accused me of lying and rejected a battlezone and neutral mod ruling on the issue. Now you're trying to mislead people and leaving out context intentionally to do it. This isn't a simple case of lowballing anymore. You're blatantly lying and you've been doing it for pages on end. That's against the rules.

And I will be PMing a mod on this shortly. [/B]

Now either-
a) I'm right and he was never diminished from NM 18/19/21 up till he fought the X-Men in UXM 192 since it was never stated on panel anywhere in those four issues. There were NO other issues he appeared in or was mentioned in aside from NM 18/19/21. The very next time he's seen or heard from is UXM 192. No hint or anything else was shown or mentioned on panel that he was somehow weakened.

OR

b) You are right and he was diminished (despite the fact that this is mentioned nowhere). The ONLY things he did in NM 18/19/21 is tear that star apart and chase his son through space before landing on Earth. If you are correct and he was diminished by the time he fought Rogue/Colossus/Nightcrawler, then the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation as to why he was diminished was because he overexerted himself tearing that star apart and chasing his son through space. So much for your "casually tore a star apart" theory. And this places his best feat in the herald level range like I've been saying all along. I even gave you examples of heralds doing impressive things and your only comeback was they didn't do them "casually". Well if you are correct about Magus being diminished by the time he went up against those three X-Men, Magus didn't "casually" tear that star up or "casually" chase his son across space.

Originally posted by zopzop
Four issues spread out over NINE months is NOTHING. The fact that this and the "we don't know what he did off panel during those 3 issues between NM 18 and UXM 192" is all you have shows how desperate you are.

I'm not pushing you to prove the negative. Your entire argument, however, hinges on the negative because in order for your alternative theory to hold water, absolutely nothing can happen to Magus in the nine months off-panel. You can't prove nothing happened off-panel precisely because we didn't see it. And you can't prove that Magus didn't decide to power down and sneak around Earth. Your false absolutes aren't helped any by your attempts to leave out important context.

Don't play this burden of proof game with me. You demanded proof he was depowered and that his size is also reflective of his power, was shown proof multiple times, just rejected it and lied about the scans that I took the time a patience to upload and link to you. You did this on several points and several scans. After failing to gain any sort of traction, you embraced the idea that he was depowered and tried to turn the argument around on me as some sort of double-edged sword. Except you blunderingly set that up by leaving out important context and are still trying to do so.

You refused to accept the scans. You refused to accept you were wrong (until now, and even then you're still trying to backhandedly suggest you weren't). You refused to own up to your lies. You refused to battlezone me. You refused to accept a neutral mod ruling. You refuse to do anything else but what you've been doing the entire time for pages on end: lying, misleading, trolling.

You don't get to do that.