Originally posted by NemeBroI can only follow that logic so far. The writer is telling us these facts so that we, the readers, have a bearing on how powerful various characters are.
He didn't destroy a planet in the manga, only in filler.Him stating he would "turn the planet to ash" means exactly dick without the feat to back up legitimate planet busting.
And why do people think that "planet busters" are equal?
It takes about a thousand times the energy it takes to destroy our moon, as it does to destroy Earth.
Imagine how much energy it would take to reach star busting.
Saiyan Saga Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was sufficient to destroy the earth.
It was stated that base form Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta.
It was stated that the Final Flash attack Vegeta launched at Cell would have destroyed earth had he not made it weaker.
Jesus Cell stated that he'd gathered enough energy to destroy the entire solar system.
Etc.
Why are we all of the sudden attempting to doubt the validity of character statements?
Originally posted by stargun
Yet that was his only planet buster shown on panel, we can't really say if he would've been able to destroy it instantly even if he wanted to.
Frieza stated it took ALL of his energy to escape from the spirit bomb...he was depleted. That's why he didn't destroy Namek, he didn't have the energy.
Originally posted by carver9You know, it's really no different than power levels. Being told that Vegeta's PL during the Saiyan saga was 18,000 is no different than being told his attack could have destroyed the earth. It seems like a complete double-standard to regard the former as canon, but not the latter.
Writers intent...so got darn clear just like power levels in DBZ is clear.
Many facts in DBZ are based solely on character statements. Why those statements are now being questioned seems a bit... Odd. You cannot question some statements w/o questioning them all.
Originally posted by NemeBro
And why do people think that "planet busters" are equal?It takes about a thousand times the energy it takes to destroy our moon, as it does to destroy Earth.
In fact. By using 1,000 joules as maximum output for the human, and 1.2445⋿29 for Roshi's maximum output you can logarithm the energy axis and find that the relation should be of order 2.2. Meaning that for the relation should be (y/x)^2.2 + residual. (Note that 1,000 Joules isn't that much, but higher values will produce a higher order, but the order 2.2 is enough to clarify the point.)
The residual does tend towards zero for larger values x and y, meaning you can neglect it for higher values.
So, assuming that the residual is neglectable for the relation Vegeta's power level and Roshi's power level (18,000 and 139 respectively). Vegeta should be able to produce (18,000/139)^2.2 = 44,400 times more energy.
If we assume that it isn't neglectable, he should be able to produce even more energy because the residual is always greater than zero.
So the fact that it's just a factor of a few thousands that separates the two values doesn't mean much if you take a moment to think about it.
Conclusively it's not a stretch to believe that 18,000 is enough to destroy a planet, or that Cell had enough energy to destroy the solar system at >4⋿9.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Hey real quick, what is 150 times a thousand?150,000.
Even according to your biased, anally raped form of power scaling, we have no reason beyond a claim made by a character in a frenzied stupor to suspect he could bust a planet.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, prove Goku knows how much power it takes to bust a planet, lol.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, prove Goku at any time thought or said "Wow that blast really can destroy the planet".
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, clench your rectum when I push myself inside you. If we're really going to continue doing this, we might as well make it feel good for the both of us.
Wasn't he at PL 180? Small detail.
By using 1,000 joules as maximum output for the human
And this only compares one instance and not all the other blasts in the series that are considerably weaker.
Off topic- Personally find it odd how destruction is the main topic for DBZ threads when we've only seen on panel 2 planets being destroyed, and one was via chain reaction..
Your whole argument centers around a linear mapping between power levels and energy, which is illogical.
Vegeta not being able to survive out in space, take a planet exploding or having an end-game plan (no space pod to get his broken ass home) points to him not really being all that serious about blowing up the Earth. Life-wiping or razing sure, just not planet busting.
Then there's characters using and being threatened by +/- planet level attacks. Even the destruction loving Buu only gets up to planetary levels.
Originally posted by BloodRainVegeta outright said that he was going to destroy the earth itself(his actual words were: "turn the planet to ashes.") Obviously he was not talking about merely expunging all life on earth, but rather, destroying the planet outright. Like it or not, Akira himself put those words in Vegeta's mouth--- so unless we were given a good reason to doubt the validity of his statement(which we were not) then there is no reason to assume he was speaking in hyperbole to Goku. If you're going to question Vegeta's statement, then you must be prepared to question EVERY statement ANY character has EVER made throughout the history of DBZ. Are you really prepared to do that?
Vegeta not being able to survive out in space, take a planet exploding or having an end-game plan (no space pod to get his broken ass home) points to him not really being all that serious about blowing up the Earth. Life-wiping or razing sure, just not planet busting.
Some examples(there are literally dozens more):
-Dodoria stated that Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta. Frieza himself extrapolated on Dodoria's statement, and said that he destroyed the planet "easily" in his base form. Because the manga never depicted Frieza destroying said planet, should we assume that he did not?
-Supreme Kai stated that Buu destroyed hundreds of worlds and killed all of the other Kai. Because we never saw Buu destroy these worlds or kill the Kai in the manga, should we assume he did not?
-Supreme Kai also stated that Bibidi created Buu. Because we did not see said creation in the manga, should we assume Buu was created through some other means?
Surely you understand what I'm saying...
Having said that, I think it is faulty to question narrative written by Akira himself, without having a legitimate reason to do so. During the Saiyan Saga in particular, Vegeta was as prideful/cocky/arrogant/egotistical as it gets. He would have rather destroyed the entire earth(along with himself) than live with the humility of being trounced by a 'low-level' Saiyan, like Goku. Point being: Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of planet-busting, and would have succeeded in doing so had Goku not overpowered his Galick Gun with a kaioken x4 Kamehameha.
Originally posted by Q99Vegeta and Nappa had a full-on conversation in space after Arlia was destroyed:
Doesn't mean he can breathe in space, just that he can survive long enough to blast then close the door and get things aired-up again.
Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta outright said that he was going to destroy the earth itself(his actual words were: "turn the planet to ashes.") Obviously he was not talking about merely expunging all life on earth, but rather, destroying the planet outright. Like it or not, Akira himself put those words in Vegeta's mouth--- so unless we were given a good reason to doubt the validity of his statement(which we were not) then there is no reason to assume he was speaking in hyperbole to Goku. If you're going to question Vegeta's statement, then you must be prepared to question EVERY statement ANY character has EVER made throughout the history of DBZ. Are you really prepared to do that?Some examples(there are literally dozens more):
-Dodoria stated that Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta. Frieza himself extrapolated on Dodoria's statement, and said that he destroyed the planet "easily" in his base form. Because the manga never depicted Frieza destroying said planet, should we assume that he did not?-Supreme Kai stated that Buu destroyed hundreds of worlds and killed all of the other Kai. Because we never saw Buu destroy these worlds or kill the Kai in the manga, should we assume he did not?
-Supreme Kai also stated that Bibidi created Buu. Because we did not see said creation in the manga, should we assume Buu was created through some other means?
Surely you understand what I'm saying...
Having said that, I think it is faulty to question narrative written by Akira himself, without having a legitimate reason to do so. During the Saiyan Saga in particular, Vegeta was as prideful/cocky/arrogant/egotistical as it gets. He would have rather destroyed the entire earth(along with himself) than live with the humility of being trounced by a 'low-level' Saiyan, like Goku. Point being: Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of planet-busting, and would have succeeded in doing so had Goku not overpowered his Galick Gun with a kaioken x4 Kamehameha.
Yes, totally prepared to do that/have already done so if its relevant to their feats.
1. Yes, because later on we see a beaten down Freeza destroying Namek and an even later King Cold suggesting that Mecha!Freeza should just blow up the Earth from their ship.
2. Yes, because we see Buu easily destroy the Earth. That and weaker characters can destroy a planet, its obvious that he could too.
3. Ye-.. who cares, it has nothing to do with anything we'd argue here so that would be pointless. Though nothing suggests this would be a lie so there's no reason to doubt.
The thing is that the above two planet feats have two major things in common; That the character stating it was present when the event happened, and that we see a similar event happen on panel. Not only did we not see Vegeta destroy any planet, we also have no one to say that he could actually do so besides his own, berserker raged threat he said when he literally snapped.
Vegeta has never been suicidal until the Buu arc when he did so to protect Trunks etc. And if he didn't care about his life with such a humiliation then he wouldn't have been so afraid when Krillin was about to kill him. The guy wanted to survive and come back for revenge, not die trying.
And those good reasons to doubt?
1. Never saw him destroy any planet.
2. No one can vouch for it.
3. We only see and mention planet busting when talking about someone as strong as base Freeza with his core rupture move. Vegeta's far from his strength and further is he's just using a normal blast. What I find interesting is that a 70% Final form Freeza tried and failed (by his own words) to destroy Namek with a single blast cause he said it wasnt strong enough, though it still got to the core.
4. He would have killed himself in the explosion.
5. Surviving that, he would have suffocated.
6. Surviving that, his pod would be destroyed and he'd be too weak from the beating + explosion to go all the way to base to heal himself and again would die.
If we just take the word of any character with nothing else to support it as a fact, then we'd pretty much be like the earthlings that believe Hercule is the strongest warrior on the planet because he says so..
Originally posted by BloodRainWow, all you did here is attempt to disregard character statements in favor of your own opinion (your opinion isn't canon, btw.) That said, there is really no reason to pick apart every single portion of your retort. Instead, I'll just highlight the meat and potatoes that you dodged, once more...
Yes, totally prepared to do that/have already done so if its relevant to their feats.1. Yes, because later on we see a beaten down Freeza destroying Namek and an even later King Cold suggesting that Mecha!Freeza should just blow up the Earth from their ship.
2. Yes, because we see Buu easily destroy the Earth. That and weaker characters can destroy a planet, its obvious that he could too.
3. Ye-.. who cares, it has nothing to do with anything we'd argue here so that would be pointless. Though nothing suggests this would be a lie so there's no reason to doubt.The thing is that the above two planet feats have two major things in common; That the character stating it was present when the event happened, and that we see a similar event happen on panel. Not only did we not see Vegeta destroy any planet, we also have no one to say that he could actually do so besides his own, berserker raged threat he said when he literally snapped.
Vegeta has never been suicidal until the Buu arc when he did so to protect Trunks etc. And if he didn't care about his life with such a humiliation then he wouldn't have been so afraid when Krillin was about to kill him. The guy wanted to survive and come back for revenge, not die trying.
And those good reasons to doubt?
1. Never saw him destroy any planet.
2. No one can vouch for it.
3. We only see and mention planet busting when talking about someone as strong as base Freeza with his core rupture move. Vegeta's far from his strength and further is he's just using a normal blast. What I find interesting is that a 70% Final form Freeza tried and failed (by his own words) to destroy Namek with a single blast cause he said it wasnt strong enough, though it still got to the core.
4. He would have killed himself in the explosion.
5. Surviving that, he would have suffocated.
6. Surviving that, his pod would be destroyed and he'd be too weak from the beating + explosion to go all the way to base to heal himself and again would die.If we just take the word of any character with nothing else to support it as a fact, then we'd pretty much be like the earthlings that believe Hercule is the strongest warrior on the planet because he says so..
Supreme Kai stated that Bibidi created Buu. We never saw this creation take place in the manga, so does that mean Kai was just talking BS/hyperbole? Obviously not--- despite never seeing Buu being created, we, the readers, were intended to take the Kai's statements regarding Buu as 100% factual. Same thing when Frieza stated that the easily destroyed the planet Vegeta in his base form. We never saw it happen in the manga, but it was clearly intended to be taken as fact... The EXACT same logic also crosses over to Vegeta's statement--- Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to destroy the earth, and we were NEVER given a legitimate reason to question the validity of his statement. By that point in the battle, it was quite obvious that Vegeta was desperate enough to do anything he needed to do, if it meant defeating Goku. The Galick Gun was his last resort.
Aside from the above, there is not one literary medium (especially DBZ) in which the reader is intended to doubt statements made by key characters, without having a damn good(ie. canon) reason to do so. It is even more faulty for a reader to pick and choose which character statements they accept as fact and which they don't--- especially in a case where every character statement is written by the same author. All you're doing right now is digging for reasons to try and devalue Vegeta's statement with all your 'maybes' and 'what ifs', because you don't want to accept the fact that a guy with a PL of 18,000 was capable of planet-busting. Your opinion, however, doesn't supersede the fact that Akira clearly intended Saiyan Saga Vegeta to be on that level, HENCE THE NARRATIVE HE PERSONALLY WROTE IN THAT SCENE. Character statements in published literature>>>your opinion. End of story.
At any rate, this will be my last post on the topic. Frankly, anyone who would argue with the above facts (yes, everything I stated=fact) is trollishly illogical, and certainly not worth wasting my time on.
It's hard to say, frieza was still alive with the lower half of his body, his arm and half of his head gone after surviving a planet's explosion but this isn't durability this is survival, the attacks damaged him he just survived long enough for his father king cold to find him and repair him, if goku's body was in the same state he would long be dead. But I still say super saiyan 1 goku is alot more durable not just because he is so much stronger but because he was taking frieza's best energy waves that could destroy planet's with not even a scratch being inflicted. But they where at the time they fought depicted as even when frieza was at 100% so there isn't a way to know.
Wiktionary defines 'durability' as: "Permanence by virtue of the power to resist stress or force."
Dictionary.com says: "able to resist wear, decay, etc., well; lasting; enduring.
And Oxford dictionaries says: "the ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage."
So unless you guys are using video-game stats like "survival" or "constitution" level a la Fallout and KotOR, then durability is a synonym. And Frieza has shown more proficiency at withstanding damage than SSJ Goku. Beaten up by a superior opponent, cut in half, blasted in to making a duck face, and having a planet explode around him. And left to float in space with no help or medical equipment for who knows how long exactly.
Fuzzy definitions of "durability" aside, the answer to this should have been obvious: Frieza.
Originally posted by Galan007
Wow, all you did here is attempt to disregard character statements in favor of your own opinion (your opinion isn't canon, btw.) That said, there is really no reason to pick apart every single portion of your retort. Instead, I'll just highlight the meat and potatoes that you dodged, once more...Supreme Kai stated that Bibidi created Buu. We never saw this creation take place in the manga, so does that mean Kai was just talking BS/hyperbole? Obviously not--- despite never seeing Buu being created, we, the readers, were intended to take the Kai's statements regarding Buu as 100% factual. Same thing when Frieza stated that the easily destroyed the planet Vegeta in his base form. We never saw it happen in the manga, but it was clearly intended to be taken as fact... The EXACT same logic also crosses over to Vegeta's statement--- Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to destroy the earth, and we were NEVER given a legitimate reason to question the validity of his statement. By that point in the battle, it was quite obvious that Vegeta was desperate enough to do anything he needed to do, if it meant defeating Goku. The Galick Gun was his last resort.
Aside from the above, there is not one literary medium (especially DBZ) in which the reader is intended to doubt statements made by key characters, without having a damn good(ie. canon) reason to do so. It is even more faulty for a reader to pick and choose which character statements they accept as fact and which they don't--- especially in a case where every character statement is written by the same author. All you're doing right now is digging for reasons to try and devalue Vegeta's statement with all your 'maybes' and 'what ifs', because you don't want to accept the fact that a guy with a PL of 18,000 was capable of planet-busting. Your opinion, however, doesn't supersede the fact that Akira clearly intended Saiyan Saga Vegeta to be on that level, HENCE THE NARRATIVE HE PERSONALLY WROTE IN THAT SCENE. Character statements in published literature>>>your opinion. End of story.
At any rate, this will be my last post on the topic. Frankly, anyone who would argue with the above facts (yes, everything I stated=fact) is trollishly illogical, and certainly not worth wasting my time on.
Freeza /destroyed/ planet Vegeta. Past tense. Its not a boast or something said in rage.. its happened. Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta because its been destroyed, several people that were there back it up and we see that Freeza can blow up planets. Name one of these that Vegeta does. You're comparing something that has happened to something that has not happened, thats not the same logic.
So its canon that Vegeta wanted to kill himself? You can prove that the Vegeta that was scared of being killed and was totally fine with escaping to come back another time wanted to kill himself in that attack? And seriously.. /my/ maybes and what ifs? Who's the one saying that Vegeta can do something we havnt seen and calling it a legit canon fact? Don't ignore the 6 legit, canon points against I gave you.
I don't give a dame if he ends up a planet buster here or not, no shits will be given. And legit feats and canon things > statements with nothing to back it up. I mean if you can prove that Vegeta was suicidal here than hey, go for it. But it'd futile as we see how desperate he was to escape :/
Fact: Vegeta was insane, screaming and raging.. really the best person to take facts from?
Fact: Vegeta did /not/ want to die, proven.
Fact: Destroying the plane would kill him.
Seeing the problem?