Originally posted by Luffygear4
OMG FREIZA IS MORE DURABLE, THEIR RACE IS MEANT TO SURVIVE INJURIES AND MASS AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE WHEN SAIYANS ARE BRUTE WARRIORS.
What injury did Frieza survive that Goku couldn't survive and please don't say being cut in half because he was on the ground "near death" when that happened and Goku gave him energy so that he would live. If it wasn't for Goku sympathy, Frieza would have died. So what other showing are you using because using that logic, Piccolo is more durable than Goku since he survived being splattered in hundreds of pieces. Get out of here.
Originally posted by Galan007
Christ, just because Vegeta was pissed, doesn't mean he was speaking in hyperbole (srsly). In fact, he was SO pissed at that point that he was clearly ready to do ANYTHING he needed to do to defeat Goku(including destroying the earth, and possibly himself in the process.)Stop acting as though your personal opinion supersedes character statements. It's ridiculous. Akira intended for Vegeta to have sufficient power to destroy the earth, hence the very specific verbiage he scripted into that scene. End of story.
Theres no proof that he would do 'anything' to win.. none, while theres is proof that he wouldnt go that far. Canon evidence that Vegeta isn't suicidal when on the edge of defeat = wouldn't want to die when about to lose = wasn't going to blow up the planet and kill himself. So Akira didn't intend squat, same type of proof you used.
Originally posted by carver9
What injury did Frieza survive that Goku couldn't survive and please don't say being cut in half because he was on the ground "near death" when that happened and Goku gave him energy so that he would live. If it wasn't for Goku sympathy, Frieza would have died. So what other showing are you using because using that logic, Piccolo is more durable than Goku since he survived being splattered in hundreds of pieces. Get out of here.
Goku could not survive being cut in half. No matter if evergy was given to him or not he would die. The only reason Goku lending energy happened is so Frieza wouldn't be killed by the EXPLOSION OF NAMEK not so he wouldn't die from his injuries.
But even if that was the reason Goku gave him the energy it still wouldn't matter since Goku had no clue Frieza could survive such horrific wounds. He was nearly powerless and took a monster blast from an enraged Goku then took a planet exploding in his face at an even weaker state. The let's not forget floating in space with half a head for Kami knows how long before being rescued.
Goku/Saiyans die from hole being blown thru them. He could never survive being cut in half let alone everything else Frieza endured.
Originally posted by BloodRainAgain: a character being angry doesn't mean we automatically start doubting their statements--- we have to be given a legitimate/canon reason from the author before we start questioning what they said... We can't just start doubting characters because we don't like what they're saying. srsly
Yeah but you're using the words of insanity as fact even if things in the manga oppose it. How many times have rage-threats ever been taken at face value in anything else, fiction or irl?
Originally posted by BloodRainConsidering Vegeta actually LAUNCHED an attack that he stated would turn the earth to ASH, I think it's quite apparent that he WAS willing to do anything to win.
Theres no proof that he would do 'anything' to win.. none,
If I drop a nuke on a city, clearly I am willing to destroy that city. This isn't rocket science.
Originally posted by BloodRainIn this particular scene, Vegeta stated that his attack would destroy the earth--- he then launched said attack. So yeah, he WAS willing to destroy the earth, as evident by his statements and actions.
while theres is proof that he wouldnt go that far. Canon evidence that Vegeta isn't suicidal when on the edge of defeat = wouldn't want to die when about to lose = wasn't going to blow up the planet and kill himself. So Akira didn't intend squat, same type of proof you used.
At this point you're purposefully diverging from the happenings of the actual story, just to make your unsubstantiated opinion seem more valid. This 'tactic' might work on others, but I see right through it. You'll simply never convince me to regard your opinion in higher esteem than statements/actions from the story itself. Sorry.
Originally posted by Galan007
Arrogant, as always.
Arrogant? No, just superior.
a.) I'd like to know where you came up with the notion that it requires 1,000x more energy to destroy earth, than it does the moon. I suspect that you are, again, trying to apply real world laws of physics to a fictional universe where many of those laws do not apply, whilst simultaneously ignoring the narrative of the story in favor of your own opinion.
It is not opinion that Vegeta was never shown to bust a planet at that level.
And yes, IRL, it requires a thousand times the energy according to their respective Gravitational Binding Energies.
If we don't attempt to quantify fiction through IRL practices, we are left only to use differing reader interpretations. Which is stupid.
b.) By your line of logic it would require a PL of 180,000 to even have a shot at destroying the earth. Given Vegeta's statement, and the fact that no contradictory evidence was given to us by Akira, that is purely unacceptable.
You're making the assumption that he was going to blow it up based on a few vague statements.
"I've had enough of this planet! I'll turn you to ashes along with it!"
"Save yourself and doom the Earth!"
"Prepare to die with this world you love!!!"
All from the official English translation of the manga.
None of this is linguistically explicit regarding actually blowing the planet up, the first one comes closest, but relies on more hyperbolic phrases than the others do (Blowing it up would not turn it to ashes lol).
You are relying on a character statement, one by a character not in the right mind.
Oh, and power level will not and never has made an argument. It doesn't scale linearly, or barely at all.
Hence why base form Goku seems incapable of lifting 40 tons, lol.
Originally posted by Galan007
How does launching it prove it would? You can get mad and threaten to kill someone, start the fight even.. does that mean youll actually kill? It means nothing.
First off, any statement alone in questionable, always has been, and one where the guy saying it is nuts? If we believe him then we'd have to believe that Yu Yu Hakuso demons are planet busters (mountain at best), One Piece character having planet busting punches (City level), FMA and Shaman King having certain omnipotant characters (no), orrr Naruto having light speed (from a sub-sonic character), Sun+ temp flames (nowhere near) and "flatten a mountain with a flick of its tail" (Town level strength, less with tails).. clear cases of hyperbole, what makes Vegeta such a special case? /now that you can call ranting :b/
Nah no tactics man, just wanting proof. I mean.. I got Vegeta admitting he's pro-life in the face of a loss (statement) that doubles as playing to his in-character behaviour, reasons why he wouldn't (pride, revenge, not suicidal), and even scaling (eg He used a sub-planet level attack (confirmed by himself and Trunks) to destroy part of Cell, while Goku's apparent planet+ attack only charred Vegeta)... so these things Vs Something a guy said in an obvious fit of rage.
Originally posted by NemeBroThis is not a vague statement in the slightest. Vegeta outright stated that his attack was sufficient to turn the planet into ashes. If you aren't able to comprehend the fact that turning a planet to ash = destroying said planet, then you should probably start reading Dr. Seuss-level material and begin working back up. It really is that simple.
"I've had enough of this planet! I'll turn you to ashes along with it!"
Vegeta stated his attack was sufficient to destroy the earth. We were never given a *canon* reason by the author to doubt that comment. He then launched said attack at Goku. Goku overpowered it with a Kamehameha, and sent that energy into space.
Those are the only facts we know. Don't argue with them... It's just silly.
Originally posted by Galan007
This is not a vague statement in the slightest. Vegeta outright stated that his attack was sufficient to turn the planet into ashes. If you aren't able to comprehend the fact that turning a planet to ash = destroying said planet, then you should probably start reading Dr. Seuss-level material and begin working back up. It really is that simple.Vegeta stated his attack was sufficient to destroy the earth. We were never given a *canon* reason by the author to doubt that comment. He then launched said attack at Goku. Goku overpowered it with a Kamehameha, and sent that energy into space.
Those are the only facts we know. Don't argue with them... It's just silly.
Or it could have meant that he'd render the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life.
Or it could have been an enraged, unhinged character making a claim he can't technically back up.
Why are you only willing to interpret "Turning the planet to ash" into meaning "blow it up into irreparable shards of cosmic dust"?
Character statements do not make an argument.
Originally posted by BloodRainUsing 'evidence' from other arcs is extremely faulty... Especially when Vegeta's demeanor changed over the years. Heck even during the Frieza Saga, Vegeta had no qualms with putting ALL of his energy into a single attack and launching it at final form Frieza... Had Frieza not deflected said attack, it surely would have destroyed Namek, given that Vegeta's PL would have been WELL above base form Frieza(who was capable of effortlessly destroying planets.)
How does launching it prove it would? You can get mad and threaten to kill someone, start the fight even.. does that mean youll actually kill? It means nothing.First off, any statement alone in questionable, always has been, and one where the guy saying it is nuts? If we believe him then we'd have to believe that Yu Yu Hakuso demons are planet busters (mountain at best), One Piece character having planet busting punches (City level), FMA and Shaman King having certain omnipotant characters (no), orrr Naruto having light speed (from a sub-sonic character), Sun+ temp flames (nowhere near) and "flatten a mountain with a flick of its tail" (Town level strength, less with tails).. clear cases of hyperbole, what makes Vegeta such a special case? /now that you can call ranting :b/
Nah no tactics man, just wanting proof. I mean.. I got Vegeta admitting he's pro-life in the face of a loss (statement) that doubles as playing to his in-character behaviour, reasons why he wouldn't (pride, revenge, not suicidal), and even scaling (eg He used a sub-planet level attack (confirmed by himself and Trunks) to destroy part of Cell, while Goku's apparent planet+ attack only charred Vegeta)... so these things Vs Something a guy said in an obvious fit of rage.
Furthermore, in the Cell instance you mentioned we were TOLD by the author that Vegeta purposefully made his attack weaker, as to not destroy the earth. We were told no such thing by the author during the Saiyan Saga. Thanks for helping prove my point that the writer TELLS US what he wants to be known as fact. 👆
Originally posted by NemeBro"turn the planet to ashes" =/= "rendering the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life." Or to make it even easier: "the planet" =/= "the surface of the planet".
Or it could have meant that he'd render the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life.Or it could have been an enraged, unhinged character making a claim he can't technically back up.
Why are you only willing to interpret "Turning the planet to ash" into meaning "blow it up into irreparable shards of cosmic dust"?
Character statements do not make an argument.
Stop adding your opinion to his blanket statement. You're making this much harder than it needs to be.
Originally posted by Galan007
"turn the planet to ashes" =/= "rendering the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life." Or to make it even easier: "the planet" =/= "the surface of the planet".Stop adding your opinion to his blanket statement. You're making this much harder than it needs to be.
It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza. 👆
And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga.
Originally posted by NemeBroThat doesn't mean final form Frieza is weakest being capable of doing so... Unless you want to act like he didn't destroy the planet Vegeta in his base form. Or better yet: unless you want to act like the minimum PL required to destroy a planet is 60,000,000.
It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza. 👆
Get real.
Originally posted by NemeBroIn that case, smaller meant weaker. That's why Vegeta's attack didn't end up destroying the earth, like Trunks originally thought it would.
And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot 😐
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength. Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?
Yes by characters that are not only now familiarized with such attacks, but are considerably stronger than a planet buster like Freeza.. where were you going with this if not to highlight that every other scene has evidence besides the one youre supporting?
Originally posted by BloodRainYou've perfected the art of red herrings. Anyway, you stated that Vegeta would have never actually destroyed the earth, because he wasn't willing to die. Even though a character stating something+the writer giving us no reason to doubt said statement, should be more than enough to discredit your opinion... Here is even more evidence to the contrary.
Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot 😐
Here we see Vegeta get pissed off (not unlike he was against Goku) and attack Frieza with a blast containing his "full power". In fact, Vegeta put so much of his power into this attack that Piccolo stated it would extinguish his ki all together:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772053/db26_076.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772054/db26_077.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772055/db26_078.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772056/db26_079.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772057/db26_080.gif.html
Now, at that point in the story Vegeta had already received a Zenkai after recovering from Krillin's attack.
This is important because before Vegeta even received said Zenkai he was already on par with base form Frieza:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772241/DB295-11.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772243/DB295-12.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772245/DB295-13.jpg.html
And as we know, Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta (and all of the Saiyans) "EASILY" in his base form:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772060/DB296-02.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772444/DB296-03.jpg.html
Frieza later retells the story of when he destroyed the Saiyan planet, and guess what? He's in his base form in the flashback:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772058/db26_094.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772059/db26_095.gif.html
The above statements/flashbacks perfectly coincide with what we saw happen in the anime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGtUEHzk9s
(0:40)
Point being: if base form Frieza was capable of destroying a planet with an insignificant expenditure of energy, then post-Zenkai Vegeta(who was certainly more powerful than base form Frieza) could undoubtedly destroy a planet with a blast containing his "full power". Not rocket science.
So there is yet another instance in which Vegeta became enraged, and was willing to destroy the entire planet if it meant beating his foe.
Originally posted by BloodRain
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength.Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?
Frieza didn't destroy Namek in one fell swoop on purpose.... Or do you believe a PL >60,000,000 is barely sufficient to destroy a planet, when a PL of 530,000 destroyed a planet effortlessly..?
Tbh, you've really ceased making sense, and seem to be arguing just to argue at this point. During the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta became enraged that a 'low level' Saiyan was defeating him, so he was ready to do anything to win (inc. destroying the entire earth.) I know he was prepared to destroy the earth, because he stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to do so, and then he actually fired the attack at Goku/the earth. As if that wasn't already enough proof, I've now shown you yet another instance from a different saga, in which Vegeta became enraged, packed ALL of his energy into a single attack, and fired it at Frieza... An attack that would've undoubtedly destroyed the planet, had Frieza not deflected it.
Evidence from the manga/anime >>> your opinion. I've no reason to indulge you any longer, as any subsequent post I make would simply be to refer you back to this post. Have fun. 🙂
Originally posted by BloodRain
Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot 😐
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength. Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?Yes by characters that are not only now familiarized with such attacks, but are considerably stronger than a planet buster like Freeza.. where were you going with this if not to highlight that every other scene has evidence besides the one youre supporting?
The Spirit bomb taxed him, that's why he couldn't destroy Namek. Frieza was far away from being complete during that instance.
