X-men Movie series vs Twilight Movie Series

Originally posted by Impediment
Okay, so Nibedicus sent me a PM requesting that I make a ruling for an argument in this thread.

From what I've read, is the disagreement about the "seen on screen" golden rule?

Can both parties post a brief reply about how I can help solve this?

Well i believe since we saw it on screen in BD2 then we should accept it as canon according to the "Golden Rule". It's pretty clear that here the movie feats are most important and are considered canon even if the source material contradicts it. To not accept this would be a direct violation of the "Golden Rule" and should not be allowed.

Originally posted by juggerman
Well i believe since we saw it on screen in BD2 then we should accept it as canon according to the "Golden Rule". It's pretty clear that here the movie feats are most important and are considered canon even if the source material contradicts it. To not accept this would be a direct violation of the "Golden Rule" and should not be allowed.

Welcome back! Didn't wanna post til you got back in order to give you adequate chance to post your argument. 🙂

Anyway, I think you need to be more specific. 😛

The request on ruling was about initial reaction/behavior of the Twiwolves with respect to who they were facing off against. You mentioned that they would "hang back" becausr they were fighting a human. I argued that they would fight at "full capacity" or attack like they were facing any normal enemy.

This is very relevant as Shaw's power is highly reactive and not all that proactive.

Your argument was based on Twiwolf sentiment about human not being their primary prey on Twiworld and would thus not want to engage and that the movie VS "golden rule" in limitations apply. _My point was that ANY VS thread where allies would fight or even when one side has emotional feelings for the opposing side, the fighter would no doubt not want to engage and would thus not make sense to debate about at all.

Anyway, a ruling would be nice. Thanks.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Welcome back! Didn't wanna post til you got back in order to give you adequate chance to post your argument. 🙂

Anyway, I think you need to be more specific. 😛

The request on ruling was about initial reaction/behavior of the Twiwolves with respect to who they were facing off against. You mentioned that they would "hang back" becausr they were fighting a human. I argued that they would fight at "full capacity" or attack like they were facing any normal enemy.

This is very relevant as Shaw's power is highly reactive and not all that proactive.

Your argument was based on Twiwolf sentiment about human not being their primary prey on Twiworld and would thus not want to engage and that the movie VS "golden rule" in limitations apply. _My point was that ANY VS thread where allies would fight or even when one side has emotional feelings for the opposing side, the fighter would no doubt not want to engage and would thus not make sense to debate about at all.

Anyway, a ruling would be nice. Thanks.

Yes my stance was that they would allow the vamps to engage the target 1st as shown in Eclipse and BD2. And in BD2 we see one of the wolves start to charge and the leader made him/her hold back.

Now we never see the wolves and vamps make an actual "battle plan" or at any point tell/ask the wolves to wait to attack. In the book there wasn't a "plan" either (other than trying to avoid a fight) so we can assume that allowing the vamps to head in 1st is just something the wolves/this pack master feels is in their best intrest. He isn't one to just let his guys rush in blindly. He seems to be a bit of a tactician himself and tries to ensure the safety of his pack. Also he seems smart enough to realise that attacking Shaw like lunitics(if they did) was doing nothing(even if he didn't know it was empowering Shaw) and would try a change of tactics.

Also Shaw hasn't really ever show the discretion of elemitating certain opponents while leaving others alive to continue powering him up. While being shot and blown up from all sides Shaw decides to take out everyone at once with his monster foot stomp. He didn't leave some around to keep firing as you suggest he would do with the wolves. He'd most likely do his foot stomp(if he got the power in the 1st place) trying to kill everyone at once as he's been shown to do.

This attack would probably kill every single wolf. Dunno about the vamps cuz nothing has been shown to hurt them besides other vamp's strength and shifter teeth which we can't calculate. But i'm willing to say it would kill a vamp caught in it.

Now we have the other issue. Alice would see this attack and all others coming. So would Edward thru Alice. And maybe anyone else who sees them get clear would do the same knowing Alice's power. The vamps have shown extreme speed and would be able to get clear of the blast if they knew it was coming which Alice and Ed would.

Now just like they don't know of Shaw's power and helmet Shaw doesn't know of Alice's future seeing. He'd assume she got lucky and try something else or the same thing over again. He would expend all of his energy leaving him a non threat. Alice can then just sit on him.

A big part of this depends on Alice "seeing" while the wolves are present so maybe we should wait for a ruling to continue?

Originally posted by Robtard
Shaw would be charging himself every time he takes a step. So he's likely never without some added power.

I don't think so. He was never shown to be charging as he walked or ran. It was only when some outside force hit him or something. Maybe that's a way he's limited? Maybe he cannot charge himself but must have some kind of outside force do it like the reactor. Guess to stop him from just punching himself to Hulk level power?

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes my stance was that they would allow the vamps to engage the target 1st as shown in Eclipse and BD2. And in BD2 we see one of the wolves start to charge and the leader made him/her hold back.

Now we never see the wolves and vamps make an actual "battle plan" or at any point tell/ask the wolves to wait to attack. In the book there wasn't a "plan" either (other than trying to avoid a fight) so we can assume that allowing the vamps to head in 1st is just something the wolves/this pack master feels is in their best intrest. He isn't one to just let his guys rush in blindly. He seems to be a bit of a tactician himself and tries to ensure the safety of his pack. Also he seems smart enough to realise that attacking Shaw like lunitics(if they did) was doing nothing(even if he didn't know it was empowering Shaw) and would try a change of tactics.

Also Shaw hasn't really ever show the discretion of elemitating certain opponents while leaving others alive to continue powering him up. While being shot and blown up from all sides Shaw decides to take out everyone at once with his monster foot stomp. He didn't leave some around to keep firing as you suggest he would do with the wolves. He'd most likely do his foot stomp(if he got the power in the 1st place) trying to kill everyone at once as he's been shown to do.

This attack would probably kill every single wolf. Dunno about the vamps cuz nothing has been shown to hurt them besides other vamp's strength and shifter teeth which we can't calculate. But i'm willing to say it would kill a vamp caught in it.

Now we have the other issue. Alice would see this attack and all others coming. So would Edward thru Alice. And maybe anyone else who sees them get clear would do the same knowing Alice's power. The vamps have shown extreme speed and would be able to get clear of the blast if they knew it was coming which Alice and Ed would.

Now just like they don't know of Shaw's power and helmet Shaw doesn't know of Alice's future seeing. He'd assume she got lucky and try something else or the same thing over again. He would expend all of his energy leaving him a non threat. Alice can then just sit on him.

A big part of this depends on Alice "seeing" while the wolves are present so maybe we should wait for a ruling to continue?

They were discussing battle plans and tactics in Eclipse.

Also, the above is a new approach to the debate. Your previous argument was:

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok try looking at it this way:

Shaw is standing in a field ready to fight The Cullens The Wolves and the Volturi. Right away Edward will realise he can't read guy's mind. Dakota Fanning (forgot her character's name), who always attacks first, would try to cause him pain which wouldn't work. Right away they would put everyone on alert that this guy is different somehow. (Alec might try but eh) Now "insert name here" will want to finish this guy quickly via punch/kick/bite/fart.

Alice would see right away that any attack they try would fail and cause their demise. Now since the future is constantly shifting she will see multible futures but they will have one thing in common. THEY ATTACK FIRST! She'll see that without them outright hitting him he can't/won't do spit. She'll relay this and boom goes the dynamite.

Also the wolves don't harm humans and only kill vampires so they would be the least likely to attack

That's very in character for everybody including Shaw to just sit there waiting to be hit. He might also try to goad them but all in all Alice would see the results and stop them from playing his game

Am I to assume that you've abandoned this argument as well? Becaue, y'know, this would render the ruling moot as it has very little to do with who attacks first.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
They were discussing battle plans and tactics in Eclipse.

They really only discussed how the new borns fight and how to get around that and kill them not who attacks 1st iirc. But i was talking about BD2 but if you're right that furthers my point. They set up how they engage a target together as a team and that carried over into their next battle as well. That shows the wolves are highly likely to keep this trend in future fights since it's been established that's what they do when they fight alongside vamps. They allow the vamps to engage 1st and set themselves up as the "second wave"

Meanwhile all the vampires have shown to act in certain ways in fights. Namely the Volturi sits back while Jane (and maybe Alec) does her thing. Once that doesn't work Aro gets very curious(as he did with Bella) and with Alice there he would look to her knowing her ability. The rest would follow suit since they wouldn't attack against Aro's wishes.

The Cullens would look to Alice and Edward 1st anyway. And the wolves seeing the vamps are slow to attack (knowing there mind reading and future seeing powers) they would know to be extra cautious and would heed any warnings and instructions

Also, the above is a new approach to the debate. Your previous argument was:

Am I to assume that you've abandoned this argument as well? Becaue, y'know, this would render the ruling moot as it has very little to do with who attacks first.

I thought you asked for a ruling about Alice seeing the future when the wolves are nearby. And i was simply addressing your pervious points about how the wolves would just attack and attack like mindless animals even tho they've shown to be otherwise.

No, we were requesting a ruling on the "Full Capacity" rule.

We haven't done an interchange of evidences on the Alice scenario yet and it has less go do with rules interpretation and more to do with presenting evidences so a mod ruling is not even needed there at all.

However, if we go by your new scenario (w/c really is a better argument than your silly "they just stare at Shaw until Alice figures out hkw his powers work" logic) the mod ruling would no longer be needed.

And you might want to down on yoir churning out new theories until either Imp has issued his ruling unless you're willing to concede/give up your OLD theory to be replaced with your new one (in w/c a mod ruling would no longer be needed) as a courtesy to Imp (so as to not waste his time reading through things which has nothing to do with the ruling requested).

And with the parts above you DID insert that covers the "full capacity" rule: the wolves deffered to the vamp knowledge when fighting other vamps (where wolves are better off flanking the newborns (Jasper: you have to come at them from the side), There is no reason for them to do so when engaging a lone target and a human at that.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No, we were requesting a ruling on the "Full Capacity" rule.

We haven't done an interchange of evidences on the Alice scenario yet and it has less go do with rules interpretation and more to do with presenting evidences so a mod ruling is not even needed there at all.

However, if we go by your new scenario (w/c really is a better argument than your silly "they just stare at Shaw until Alice figures out hkw his powers work" logic) the mod ruling would no longer be needed.

And you might want to down on yoir churning out new theories until either Imp has issued his ruling unless you're willing to concede/give up your OLD theory to be replaced with your new one (in w/c a mod ruling would no longer be needed) as a courtesy to Imp (so as to not waste his time reading through things which has nothing to do with the ruling requested).

And with the parts above you DID insert that covers the "full capacity" rule: the wolves deffered to the vamp knowledge when fighting other vamps (where wolves are better off flanking the newborns (Jasper: you have to come at them from the side), There is no reason for them to do so when engaging a lone target and a human at that.

Imp said he figured we were debating the "Golden Rule" which i brought up in the case of Alice. I just figured since that's when i used it that's what he was referring to.

What part of my argument changed? I said the wolves wouldn't attack 1st and gave my reasons as to why. Which were 1. They give the vamps lead and 2. They might not be as eager to kill a (percieved) human.

Granted "2" might be nil considering this is a forum fight but that would still leave "1"

And as far as Jasper's advice goes: the situation was different in BD2. They weren't fighting New Borns they were fighting very experienced vamps which calls for a different "game plan" yet they still allowed the vamps to take lead. Since that's the case in both these two different instances it shows that it is just the wolves M.O. when it comes to battling alongside the vamps

Originally posted by juggerman
Imp said he figured we were debating the "Golden Rule" which i brought up in the case of Alice. I just figured since that's when i used it that's what he was referring to.

What part of my argument changed? I said the wolves wouldn't attack 1st and gave my reasons as to why. Which were 1. They give the vamps lead and 2. They might not be as eager to kill a (percieved) human.

Granted "2" might be nil considering this is a forum fight but that would still leave "1"

And as far as Jasper's advice goes: the situation was different in BD2. They weren't fighting New Borns they were fighting very experienced vamps which calls for a different "game plan" yet they still allowed the vamps to take lead. Since that's the case in both these two different instances it shows that it is just the wolves M.O. when it comes to battling alongside the vamps

No, you brought "the golden rule" up later. I brought up the mod ruling.

This was the exhange:

You: 2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

Me: 2. The "full capacity" rule would make sense in any fictional VS forum that allows allies/friends to fight each other, otherwise, it would be impossible to put theads that allow such matchups. But to be sure, I've msgd a mod about it and we should just wait for a ruling here.

But, as I mentioned, the segment of the debate that NEEDS a ruling are the portions where rules interpretations are needed. Parts of the debate wherein evidences from both sides haven't even been brought up yet don't need mod rulings.

You opinion 2 needed the mod ruling as it has a lot to do with the "full capacity" rule. Opinion 1 is open to debate (and I will bring up my points once opinion 2 has been ruled on/conceded to). I do this to keep things simple and to prevent the debate from degenerating into 3-page multiscenario stand offs with several dangling "loose end" arguments that never gets addressed w/c would just end up with both sides trolling each other i the end or just going "nuh uh!" all day (a common enough occurence in KMC especially when obsessive fanboys are involved, I noticed).

Esentially, I wang it conclusive for either side. So I'm sure you Can appreciate what I'm trying to do here.

Actually, when battling a single target, they're not all that cooperative with vampires. See: Victoria.

Edit. Correction: You indeed brought up the golden rule when it came to Alice early. However, I never disputed that the Golden rule applied to Alice and simply disputed the logic about "holding back Wolves" due to my understanding that "full capacity" applies.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No, you brought "the golden rule" up later. I brought up the mod ruling.

This was the exhange:

You: 2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

Me: 2. The "full capacity" rule would make sense in any fictional VS forum that allows allies/friends to fight each other, otherwise, it would be impossible to put theads that allow such matchups. But to be sure, I've msgd a mod about it and we should just wait for a ruling here.

But, as I mentioned, the segment of the debate that NEEDS a ruling are the portions where rules interpretations are needed. Parts of the debate wherein evidences from both sides haven't even been brought up yet don't need mod rulings.

You opinion 2 needed the mod ruling as it has a lot to do with the "full capacity" rule. Opinion 1 is open to debate (and I will bring up my points once opinion 2 has been ruled on/conceded to). I do this to keep things simple and to prevent the debate from degenerating into 3-page multiscenario stand offs with several dangling "loose end" arguments that never gets addressed w/c would just end up with both sides trolling each other i the end or just going "nuh uh!" all day (a common enough occurence in KMC especially when obsessive fanboys are involved, I noticed).

Esentially, I wang it conclusive for either side. So I'm sure you Can appreciate what I'm trying to do here.

Actually, when battling a single target, they're not all that cooperative with vampires. See: Victoria.

I brought up the Golden Rule about Alice THEN you brought up the PM THEN Imp brought up the Rule again.

I guess i just misremembered what you said the PM was about but i looked back and I'm all caught up.

We can drop the number two reason since you've pointed out that since this is a forum fight the whole "we don't hurt humans" thing wouldn't be in play. I thought we were asking Imp for something else so we need not bother him

And are you refferring to when they were chasing Victoria BEFORE they decided to actually work together in Eclipse? Cuz well.... that was before they decided to work together. After they decided to be "friends" and not bicker they have followed the same (pretty effective) tactic. The vamps attack 1st then the wolves come out to play

Originally posted by juggerman
I brought up the Golden Rule about Alice THEN you brought up the PM THEN Imp brought up the Rule again.

I guess i just misremembered what you said the PM was about but i looked back and I'm all caught up.

We can drop the number two reason since you've pointed out that since this is a forum fight the whole "we don't hurt humans" thing wouldn't be in play. I thought we were asking Imp for something else so we need not bother him

And are you refferring to when they were chasing Victoria BEFORE they decided to actually work together in Eclipse? Cuz well.... that was before they decided to work together. After they decided to be "friends" and not bicker they have followed the same (pretty effective) tactic. The vamps attack 1st then the wolves come out to play

Well, that's good then. We need not bother Imp with that ruling. I'll hold you to your word about forgetting reason 2 and move the debate forward.

They "worked together" out of necessity. They were fighting an army of vampires/newborn. In w/c they were fighting an enemy far greater than their individual groups can handle. These reasons don't exist here.

Since you love to go the whole "debate only what is seen on screen" debating route, reasons notwithstanding, we've seen them attack individual enemies, and in the ONLY on screen moment where they attacked a lone target as a group, they DID NOT attack in the whole "wolves attack after vamps" route. In fact, they were tripping all over each other trying to get to their target.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, that's good then. We need not bother Imp with that ruling. I'll hold you to your word about forgetting reason 2 and move the debate forward.

They "worked together" out of necessity. They were fighting an army of vampires/newborn. In w/c they were fighting an enemy far greater than their individual groups can handle. These reasons don't exist here.

Since you love to go the whole "debate only what is seen on screen" debating route, reasons notwithstanding, we've seen them attack individual enemies, and in the ONLY on screen moment where they attacked a lone target as a group, they DID NOT attack in the whole "wolves attack after vamps" route. In fact, they were tripping all over each other trying to get to their target.

Actually i think you were the one who brought up the "debate only what is seen on screen" with your "Ed didn't think Bella's headband was blocking him so he'd never even consider Shaw's helmet" stance but i could be wrong. My stance was that if the book says "A" happened and the movie says "B" happened then here, in this particular forum, we would go by what the movie said happened.

It doesn't matter why the teamwork started the fact is once they started working together they performed much better then with Victoria and that has continued.

Actually what we technically see is how they acted when they were CHASING, NOT FIGHTING, a lone target while completely at odds and wanting to kill each other. Once they buried the hatchet and actually worked as a single force, as opposed to two seperate forces, things were much different.

Originally posted by juggerman
Actually i think you were the one who brought up the "debate only what is seen on screen" with your "Ed didn't think Bella's headband was blocking him so he'd never even consider Shaw's helmet" stance but i could be wrong. My stance was that if the book says "A" happened and the movie says "B" happened then here, in this particular forum, we would go by what the movie said happened.

It doesn't matter why the teamwork started the fact is once they started working together they performed much better then with Victoria and that has continued.

Actually what we technically see is how they acted when they were [b]CHASING, NOT FIGHTING, a lone target while completely at odds and wanting to kill each other. Once they buried the hatchet and actually worked as a single force, as opposed to two seperate forces, things were much different. [/B]

No, i brought it up because you were dealing in unlikely hypotheticals w/c never happened in either movie or book. You broight up "golden rule" to dismiss book text (w/c go more into detail of Alice's powers) in favor of movie "showing". Sheesh. Can't believe you're arguing about this.

When exactly was it said that they "buried the hatchet" with the vampires? Bear in mind, they'll be fighting alongside the Volruri here, too. Who, btw, greatly outnumber the Cullens in the vampire side.

Yes, they wete chasing her, and what do you think they be were trying to do to her when they caught up? Play pattycake?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No, i brought it up because you were dealing in unlikely hypotheticals w/c never happened in either movie or book. You broight up "golden rule" to dismiss book text (w/c go more into detail of Alice's powers) in favor of movie "showing". Sheesh. Can't believe you're arguing about this.

When exactly was it said that they "buried the hatchet" with the vampires? Bear in mind, they'll be fighting alongside the Volruri here, too. Who, btw, greatly outnumber the Cullens in the vampire side.

Yes, they wete chasing her, and what do you think they be were trying to do to her when they caught up? Play pattycake?

Actually you kept syaing "movie feat show this, movie feat show that" about what Edward did when he couldn't read her mind.

And much later i countered your "Alice can't see wolves" with the Goldern Rule which really isn't important here so we can let it drop

Buring the hatchet as in they could now figh together without the bickering and in fighting we saw during the chase. And it doesn't matter who they are also fighting with cuz group forum fights run under the impression that the team will work together. Else alot of these macthup would fall apart at the bell

Maybe they would braid her hair..... it doesn't matter what "would have happened" the facts are we never saw them at that point "fight" her just chase her around. If Shaw could run and dodge them at her speeds you might have a case here. Sadly this isn't so

Originally posted by juggerman
Actually you kept syaing "movie feat show this, movie feat show that" about what Edward did when he couldn't read her mind.

And much later i countered your "Alice can't see wolves" with the Goldern Rule which really isn't important here so we can let it drop

Buring the hatchet as in they could now figh together without the bickering and in fighting we saw during the chase. And it doesn't matter who they are also fighting with cuz group forum fights run under the impression that the team will work together. Else alot of these macthup would fall apart at the bell

Maybe they would braid her hair..... it doesn't matter what "would have happened" the facts are we never saw them at that point "fight" her just chase her around. If Shaw could run and dodge them at her speeds you might have a case here. Sadly this isn't so

Because those ARE movie feats ffs. Actual existent reactions vs hypothetical reactions that you imagined up on an incident that actually happened on screen. You brought up "golden rule" (first time the word was mentioned) to disqualify actual EXISTENT BOOK power descriptions.

They work together but coordinated teamwork is not implied. They're fighting alongside the Volturi (who greatly outnumber the Cullens as the vampires in this fight), btw. They DEF did not bury the hatchet there. Really, this checkmates your argument on cooperation man. You might wanna pursue other (more solid) arguments at this point.

Your logic is bordering on silliness now. I'm really trying hard not to believe that you've ended up just resorting to trolling me at this point.

They were fighting her. The fact that she used her powers to evade their attacks forcing them to chase her doesn't change this. You trying badly to play around semantics doesn't change this. In fact, it was mentioned several times in the movie that they aimed to kill her (Really? Are you really debating this?) There was a part in Eclipse where Alice was being chased by a newborn. That was still a fight. Sheesh.

Actually, my case is pretty solid. We've only really seen them attack one target during the Victoria incident. Wherein they were shown to be highly disorganized. Don't forget they will be attacking alongside the Volturi now, too. There is no prior history of cooperation between the Wolves and them.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because those ARE movie feats ffs. Actual existent reactions vs hypothetical reactions that you imagined up on an incident that actually happened on screen. You brought up "golden rule" (first time the word was mentioned) to disqualify actual EXISTENT BOOK power descriptions.

They work together but coordinated teamwork is not implied. They're fighting alongside the Volturi (who greatly outnumber the Cullens as the vampires in this fight), btw. They DEF did not bury the hatchet there. Really, this checkmates your argument on cooperation man. You might wanna pursue other (more solid) arguments at this point.

Your logic is bordering on silliness now. I'm really trying hard not to believe that you've ended up just resorting to trolling me at this point.

They were fighting her. The fact that she used her powers to evade their attacks forcing them to chase her doesn't change this. You trying badly to play around semantics doesn't change this. In fact, it was mentioned several times in the movie that they aimed to kill her (Really? Are you really debating this?) There was a part in Eclipse where Alice was being chased by a newborn. That was still a fight. Sheesh.

Actually, my case is pretty solid. We've only really seen them attack one target during the Victoria incident. Wherein they were shown to be highly disorganized. Don't forget they will be attacking alongside the Volturi now, too. There is no prior history of cooperation between the Wolves and them.

And i haven't been giving movie feats? Them working along side the Cullens isn't from the moive? I made up the wolves waiting for the vamps to attack 1st too?

And again they were CHASING her. A FIGHT never ever ensued. You trying to use "they were disorganized before they got organized" argument doesn't fly.

Once they came to terms they fought very well together and there was no "tripping all over each other". That came from them disliking each other and not working together. They would fight together period.

The Volturi being here changes nothing since they follow Aro to a fault. Aro knows about and is greatly intrested in Alice's abilitites and would heed any warning she had especially regarding his own safety as seen in BD2.

The wolves would follow the vamps lead like they have also been shown to do. Once her warning goes out no one would foolishly attack Shaw.

You have nothing to counter these points as all are backed by movie showings and character history. All you've said to counter me so far was "Hey the wolves and vamps don't get along so they won't work well together" which has been proven false twice.

Just because the Volturi are present doesn't mean the Wolves wouldn't heed a warning from Alice. They would not recklessly put themselves in danger knowing Alice can see what would happen.

And you seem to be misunderstanding something here. Even if them fubmbling with the Volturi present is likely (i doubt it) it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't outright attack Shaw like they tried with Victoria. Alice would shut that down so your point is very moot

And even if by some deafening amount of luck on behalf of Shaw they did attack against the warnings you've still given no real way Shaw can defeat Alice and Edward since she'll see everything he's gonna do and so will he

FFS, this is why I keep things simple. You can't seem to follow the argument as it happens. We are arguing (pointlessly) about who brought up the golden rule BS first (you). I mentioned that my brining up the movie feats rule was based on presenting actual movie feats in debunking you bringing up hypotheticals, not to hide behind the "golden rule" to disqualify the book descriptions on powers. When the hell did I accuse you of NOT bringing up movie feats??

They were ATTACKING her, she was dodging them/avoiding/escaping them (FYI. dodging attacks IS fighting). They tried to strike her physically, and she used her skills to evade. If this isn't a fight to you, then you're either desperate or dense.

And yes, I CAN REBUKE your other arguments. No offense, but prior history with you has me a little worried that you won't be able to follow an interchange of arguments from multiple points. That is why I debate and debunk your arguments individually as I HATE having to repeat myself over and over.

I'm sticking to the "wolves let the vampires attack first" argument til we conclude this. But once we do, I'll go on ahead and debunk your "Alice" argument post haste. And yes, I already have an argument prepared for that.

Facts:

Movie showings vs individusl opponents = wolves behave in a defined fashion. Disorganized, wild, territorial.
Movie facts = Volturi and wolves have not buried the hatchet, and will thus be doubtful if they fight organized.

You're creating hypotheticals again (something you love to do) with no movie showings to back it up. You are also presenting them behaving in a nearly forum-controlled CIS-free way. W/c is possible but unlikely.

I'll give you a freebie. Just to get things moving. I'll let you sneak peak my Alice argument for your benefit.

Question: when has Alice demonstrated immediate instant-level premonition in the movie? From what I've seen it takes time for her to get thru the premonitions. And how eactly is she going to communicate this msg in time? Or loud enough to be heard from the thunderous sound of charging vamps and wolves for that matter?

Give it up already. Wolves will charge, Volturi will charge, Cullens will charge. There is no "standoff" rule here, they engage and they WILL hit Shaw.

I've got rebuttals for all your points, but, like I said, I'm keeping it simple. I'm already worried about this turning into chaos as it is as you seem to love to add a multitiude of theories without first proving your first one.

We were not arguing "who brought up the golden rule first". You said that i love arguing "only what happened in the movie" and i said you argued that 1st. I can quote you if it makes it easier for ya.....

Bout to leave work so i'll post my full response tomorrow

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok here's my retort. Numbered of course.

1. The wolves have shown that it is in character to follow the lead of the vampires in battles shown in Eclipse and again in Breaking Dawn. They would not attack 1st. Just because they would use all their might does not mean they go against their character. They would wait for the vamps to move 1st like they always have

2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

3. Movie Alice (the character we are actually debating here) had no trouble seeing the wolves during the vision she had in BD2. Now i know what you'll say. Something along the lines of "well in the book she couldn't see them so she can't here" right? Close? Well after reading the Movie Vs Forum rules maybe you'll change your mind

"The MVF Golden Rule:
What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/[b]handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"

Notice what's in BOLD?

Alice's handicap is NOT valid here since this was a "handicap that contradicts what the character did on screen and is ILLEGAL"

MOVIE FEATS ONLY

So seeing as how Movie canon is what is used here Alice sees ALL!!!!

4. Me thinks you're trying to bring other rules from other forums over here and sadly that is not allowed _🙁_

_[/B]

Originally posted by juggerman
Well i believe since we saw it on screen in BD2 then we should accept it as canon according to the "Golden Rule". It's pretty clear that here the movie feats are most important and are considered canon even if the source material contradicts it. To not accept this would be a direct violation of the "Golden Rule" and should not be allowed.

Originally posted by juggerman
Actually i think you were the one who brought up the "debate only what is seen on screen" with your "Ed didn't think Bella's headband was blocking him so he'd never even consider Shaw's helmet" stance but i could be wrong. My stance was that if the book says "A" happened and the movie says "B" happened then here, in this particular forum, we would go by what the movie said happened.

FFS. Why are we even arguing this part? It has nothing to do with your theory or how the fight would work out AT ALL.

facepalm

Originally posted by Nibedicus
On-screen we've seen Edward's powers get blocked. On screen, we've seen how he reacted to it and what assumptions he made. Most likely reaction is how he actually reacted on screen. You can't suddenly fabricate new reactions for them because you want them to win a battleboard especially because you have prior knowledge of how Shaw's powers/gear work.

This is what YOU said on page 4 which was WELL before i brought up the Golden Rule. Why are we arguing this? Facepalm indeed.

Except all you have is conjecture and a "hope they behave this way" Reply further tainted by your prior knowledge of how Shaw's powers/gear work. You have no further evidence go support your answer rather than "he's old and smart, he'll figure it out" while I have ACTUAL on screen proof on how he ACTUALLY responded.

You again on page 5. And yet now you're going against "on screen proof of how ppl ACTUALLY respond aren't you? We SEE ON SCREEN the Volturi NEVER attack crazily as you suggest. They ALWAYS (whether against a single opponent or a group) allow Jane to attack 1st with her power. And when it didn't work in the past they DID NOT just outright attack in a blind rage like you think they would. Aro will look for a reason like he has in the past and he will keep the others for attacking in kind until he feels ready. PROVEN ON SCREEN

The wolves wait for the vamps to attack 1st. Also PROVEN ON SCREEN. And the only reasons they were "tripping on themselves" is because they were at odds with the vamps (not the case here) and Victoria was too fast and evaded their hits (also not the case here)

The Cullens would look to Alice and Edward like the've been seen to do.

Honestly your whole silly point is moot. Shut it down

Since you have so much trouble following multiple points we can just focus on one.

Just the wolves holding back for now ok?