X-men Movie series vs Twilight Movie Series

Originally posted by juggerman
This is what YOU said on page 4 which was WELL before i brought up the Golden Rule. Why are we arguing this? Facepalm indeed.

You again on page 5. Shut it down

Because, when I said it, it was to point out that I'm using something that exists on screen?

And when you said it, you simply wanted to use it as a technicality to exclude existent (book) evidence from the debate?

When I said "you love arguing only what's heppened in the movie" as you say, it was to point out that since you're using that tactic, then I will as well (originally, I was allowing book "feats" as secondary evidence as long as movie "showings" corroborated it).

If you can't tell the difference, then there's no hope for you.

Back on topic now?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because, when I said it, it was to point out that I'm using something that exists on screen?

And when you said it, you simply wanted to use it as a technicality to exclude existent (book) evidence from the debate?

When I said "you love arguing only what's heppened in the movie" as you say, it was to point out that since you're using that tactic, then I will as well (originally, I was allowing book "feats" as secondary evidence as long as movie "showings" corroborated it).

If you can't tell the difference, then there's no hope for you.

Back on topic now?

I am allowing book feats. The only difference is that when the book feats and the movie feats contradict the movie feat is what we use. Simple. So again shut it down.

Yes let's get back on topic. for now we'll only debate the wolves letting the vamps attack 1st yes?

Originally posted by juggerman
I am allowing book feats. The only difference is that when the book feats and the movie feats contradict the movie feat is what we use. Simple. So again shut it down.

BS. "Contradiction" is a subjective term as anyone can make anything seem as if something contradicts it (even PIS-y things that actually has contradictory evidences in the movie itself, like Jane's limitations with regards to shifters).

But rules are rules. If you're gonna pull a cheap technicality to your advantage, go on ahead. But don't expect it to work just for you.

If you want to "shut it down", stop trying to get the last word in when you know for a fact that everything I said is dead on.

Originally posted by juggerman
Les let's get back on topic. for now we'll only debate the wolves letting the vamps attack 1st yes?

FFS. Reread my arguments, quote them and offer arguments. I'll not waste my time repeating myself as I've addressed more than this.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
BS. "Contradiction" is a subjective term as anyone can make anything seem as if something contradicts it (even PIS-y things that actually has contradictory evidences in the movie itself, like Jane's limitations with regards to shifters).

Alice. And are you trying to tell me Alice seeing the wolves is not a contradiction? WOW!

But rules are rules. If you're gonna pull a cheap technicality to your advantage, go on ahead. But don't expect it to work just for you.

So now the rules are cheap? You were the one who brought up rules in the 1st place. Not my fault you just tried to enforce rules that weren't actually there and didn't actually look at the one's that were.

Sorry your argument about rules didn't work out for you and now it's "cheap" to use the actual rules 😆

If you want to "shut it down", stop trying to get the last word in when you know for a fact that everything I said is dead on.

Dead on arrival? This we agree on. I keep trying to move on and you keep going back. We can do this all day or we can actually drop it and move forward. What's it gonna be?

FFS. Reread my arguments, quote them and offer arguments. I'll not waste my time repeating myself as I've addressed more than this.

YOU said you want to stick to one at a time. YOU said you wanted that one to be about the wolves not attacking 1st. I'm just trying to make sure that's what's going on so i don't get accused of "avoiding points made earlier".

If that is indeed the case i'll say this: The wolves have shown in EVERY SINGLE team encounter they have had with the vamps AFTER deciding to work together, rather then just next to each other, they have allowed the vamps to head in 1st. A fight plan was never established in BD2 yet they still went by what was done earlier. It wasn't never shown to be anything other than how this pack master CHOOSES to go about it. Since that is his M.O. we can not assume he'll just disregard his tactics in favor of your "they will just fight stupidly so Shaw will win" stance.

These guys follow certain patterns and there isn't anything to go against that besides the Victoria encounter which really doesn't go against it at all. They were at extreme odds with the vamps and were not trying to work with them and Victoria was dodging them like Ali. Shaw has neither advantage so they wouldn't be "tripping all over each other". They will fight as they have been shown to do and them just fighting stupidly to give your guy a shot isn't what they do

You're up slick.

Originally posted by juggerman
This is what YOU said on page 4 which was WELL before i brought up the Golden Rule. Why are we arguing this? Facepalm indeed.

You again on page 5. And yet now you're going against "on screen proof of how ppl ACTUALLY respond aren't you? We SEE ON SCREEN the Volturi NEVER attack crazily as you suggest. They ALWAYS (whether against a single opponent or a group) allow Jane to attack 1st with her power. And when it didn't work in the past they DID NOT just outright attack in a blind rage like you think they would. Aro will look for a reason like he has in the past and he will keep the others for attacking in kind until he feels ready. PROVEN ON SCREEN

The wolves wait for the vamps to attack 1st. Also PROVEN ON SCREEN. And the only reasons they were "tripping on themselves" is because they were at odds with the vamps (not the case here) and Victoria was too fast and evaded their hits (also not the case here)

The Cullens would look to Alice and Edward like the've been seen to do.

Honestly your whole silly point is moot. Shut it down

Since you have so much trouble following multiple points we can just focus on one.

Just the wolves holding back for now ok?

Didn't see your edit. Let me address this:

1) Who said I was against ppl using ON SCREEN responses? I mentioned it simply to point out that since you want to debate in that fashion, so would I. Might want to work on your reading comprehension there, buddy.

2) What are you basing this on? The only part where "Aro didn't let others attack until he feels ready" was due to Alice approaching him and convincing him via her visions and his powers. Her vision EXPLICITLY showed them charging the field had he determined that he didn't believe her. He didn't do a "standoff before attacking" at all. And how does this help your argument? I mentioned that the wolves would charge first.

3) In a battle situation, when exactly had the Cullens "looked to Alice" first before assaulting? Sure didn't happen in Eclipse. In BD2, all she did was converse with Aro prior to the fight even starting (innaplicable here as forum fights don't get a "negotiation" stip).

4) LET ME REPEAT: they are fighting with the Volturi here. They've never shown coordinatiin with them on screen. What you're proposing is a hypothetical where they will coordinate with ppl with ppl in a situation that they've been shown never to coordinate on (vs one target) as shown on screen. Being "at odds" or Victoria dodging has little to no bearing over how they chose to assault a single target.

5) And honestly, WTF is your argument anyway? That Alice would somehow conveniently get the perfect timed vision, have the time/opportunity to warn them prior to them attacking so that they'll sit on their asses til Alice figures out how to bypass Shaw's extemely ambiguous power? Don't you see how flimsy that logic is and how it won't hold to the smallest amount of scruitny?

WTF are you two arguing? Too lazy to read all the drama.

Originally posted by juggerman
Alice. And are you trying to tell me Alice seeing the wolves is not a contradiction? WOW!

So now the rules are cheap? You were the one who brought up rules in the 1st place. Not my you just tried to enforce rules that weren't actually there and didn't actually look at the one's that were.

Sorry your argument about rules didn't work out for you and now it's cheap to use the actual rules 😆

Dead on arrival? This we agree on. I keep trying to move on and you keep going back. We can do this all day or we can actually drop it and move forward. What's it gonna be?

YOU said you want to stick to one at a time. YOU said you wanted that one to be about the wolves not attacking 1st. I'm just trying to make sure that's what's going on so i don't get accused of "avoiding points made earlier".

If that is indeed the case i'll say this: The wolves have shown in EVERY SINGLE team encounter they have had with the vamps AFTER deciding to work together, rather then just next to each other, they have allowed the vamps to head in 1st. A fight plan was never established in BD2 yet they still went by what was done earlier. It wasn't never shown to be anything other than how this pack master CHOOSES to go about it. Since that is his M.O. we can not assume he'll just disregard his tactics in favor of your "they will just fight stupidly so Shaw will win" stance.

These guys follow certain patterns and there isn't anything to go against that besides the Victoria encounter which really doesn't go against it at all. They were at extreme odds with the vamps and were not trying to work with them and Victoria was dodging them like Ali. Shaw has neither advantage so they wouldn't be "tripping all over each other". They will fight as they have been shown to do and them just fighting stupidly to give your guy a shot isn't what they do

You're up slick.

1) Reading comprehension pls. I said that there are contractions in the movie itself about how her powers work. I posted the instances in a previous post I had. Sadly, it seemes like you missed it. It's nice to know that you don't read my replies tho.

2) Rules are rules. They're not cheap. Only how ppl choose to use them. Again, if you read my posts, you'd know this as I've mentioned time and again how our instances differ dramatically.

3) You like brining it back and every single time it looks like you don't even take time to read and understand my posts. I have all day and all week to do this, tho. Like I said before, gots nothing but time, Twiboy.

4) The wolves was shown attacking groups and in coordinated tactics in those instances. Not applicable here. Everhthing happened off screen on BD2 but if you're asserting that they never discussed a battle plan when fighting what would almost be a hopeless battle against a superior foe just because it was never shown on screen, then you might as well admit that the Cullens and Wolves have zero tactical/strategic capability whatsoever.

5) The only instance we HAVE of a joint vamp/wolf effort vs a single opponent is the Victoria instance. If you don't like it then tough. You might think its silly but no less sillly than the idea of an entire army of vampires plus a pack of wolves would pause at the mere sight of a single human with a funny helmet in the middle of the battlefield. Fortunately, I have on screen ptoof while all you have are hypotheticals.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
WTF are you two arguing? Too lazy to read all the drama.

Don't bother. It's stupid. I'm just bored and he's just dense.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Didn't see your edit. Let me address this:

1) Who said I was against ppl using ON SCREEN responses? I mentioned it simply to point out that since you want to debate in that fashion, so would I. Might want to work on your reading comprehension there, buddy.

2) What are you basing this on? The only part where "Aro didn't let others attack until he feels ready" was due to Alice approaching him and convincing him via her visions and his powers. Her vision EXPLICITLY showed them charging the field had he determined that he didn't believe her. He didn't do a "standoff before attacking" at all. And how does this help your argument? I mentioned that the wolves would charge first.

3) In a battle situation, when exactly had the Cullens "looked to Alice" first before assaulting? Sure didn't happen in Eclipse. In BD2, all she did was converse with Aro prior to the fight even starting (innaplicable here as forum fights don't get a "negotiation" stip).

4) LET ME REPEAT: they are fighting with the Volturi here. They've never shown coordinatiin with them on screen. What you're proposing is a hypothetical where they will coordinate with ppl with ppl in a situation that they've been shown never to coordinate on (vs one target) as shown on screen. Being "at odds" or Victoria dodging has little to no bearing over how they chose to assault a single target.

5) And honestly, WTF is your argument anyway? That Alice would somehow conveniently get the perfect timed vision, have the time/opportunity to warn them prior to them attacking so that they'll sit on their asses til Alice figures out how to bypass Shaw's extemely ambiguous power? Don't you see how flimsy that logic is and how it won't hold to the smallest amount of scruitny?

1 When did i say you were "against ppl using on screen responces"? Looks like hooked on phonics didn't work for you.

2 Aro is their leader. No one attacks without his say so. They didn't kill Bella even tho they wanted to. They didn't kill that random vamp in BD2 until he said so. They all wanted to attack the Cullens and wolves almost right away in BD2 but didn't since he didn't say so. They still wanted to attack after Aro announced the kid wasn't an immortal child yet a few words from Aro stopped that dead. They still wanted to attck after Aro saw the vision yet again Aro put a stop to it. How much more proof do you need. Im starting to think you've never even watched thses movies

3 They look to Alice and Edward for just about everything in the books and movies. Any time Alice has a vision of the future everyone takes heed. We never see the Eclipse fight in the books and in the movie we don't see the very start of it since the attention is on Edward and Bella. But we do know that Alice has already seen the fight and relayed info beforehand. But she did share battle info when she recieved it right away. Why would that change? And in BD2 she did relay what she could as soon as she could about Aro attacking regardless. There was no delay she did this right away

4 They've never been shown to work well with the Ciullens either before they did. What's that mean? Nothing. Either way the point is moot since they wouldn't attack or need this coordination

5 What are you talking about? Alice's vision aren't that random. She'll easily see what shes looking for. Your timing argument is pointless. She doesnt just sit and wait to get hit with a vision. It's a power she control's which is why she can look at people's future's specifically. She will see the future right away and tell everyone not to attack which will be easy since no one would have begun to attack right away anyway. Also her visions are pretty instant so there isn't a delay either.

She also doesn't need to figure out Shaw's power and that was never my point with her so nice try but fail. She would see that they Shaw waits to be attacked before counter attacking. This is important since she'll she if they don't attack 1st Shaw either won't either or will but lacks the power to harm any one. Then they can just BFR him

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
WTF are you two arguing? Too lazy to read all the drama.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Reading comprehension pls. I said that there are contractions in the movie itself about how her powers work. I posted the instances in a previous post I had. Sadly, it seemes like you missed it. It's nice to know that you don't read my replies tho.

2) Rules are rules. They're not cheap. Only how ppl choose to use them. Again, if you read my posts, you'd know this as I've mentioned time and again how our instances differ dramatically.

3) You like brining it back and every single time it looks like you don't even take time to read and understand my posts. I have all day and all week to do this, tho. Like I said before, gots nothing but time, Twiboy.

4) The wolves was shown attacking groups and in coordinated tactics in those instances. Not applicable here. Everhthing happened off screen on BD2 but if you're asserting that they never discussed a battle plan when fighting what would almost be a hopeless battle against a superior foe just because it was never shown on screen, then you might as well admit that the Cullens and Wolves have zero tactical/strategic capability whatsoever.

5) The only instance we HAVE of a joint vamp/wolf effort vs a single opponent is the Victoria instance. If you don't like it then tough. You might think its silly but no less sillly than the idea of an entire army of vampires plus a pack of wolves would pause at the mere sight of a single human with a funny helmet in the middle of the battlefield. Fortunately, I have on screen ptoof while all you have are hypotheticals.

Honestly your points are horrible. Are we moving forward on your "only one argument at a time" stance or not?

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
WTF are you two arguing? Too lazy to read all the drama.

Well nib believes Shaw can solo the entire Cullen/Wolf/Volturi army yet the only way seems to be if they all just start hitting him right away like lunatics and would never realise that their hits are doing nothing. Then instead of actually using anyone's powers in any meaningful way they would just forget they had them so Shaw could win.

Pretty sound right? Guess Shaw's opponent need to be handicapped and fight like morons for him to stand a chance

Originally posted by juggerman
Honestly your points are horrible. Are we moving forward on your "only one argument at a time" stance or not?

My first part was in response to your reply. The second part was within the context of the single point we're arguing.

If you're willing to re-establish this debate in a civil to-the-point manner, so am I, however.

Are we doing one point at a time like you suggested or are we doing it in another way?

Originally posted by juggerman
Well nib believes Shaw can solo the entire Cullen/Wolf/Volturi army yet the only way seems to be if they all just start hitting him right away like lunatics and would never realise that their hits are doing nothing. Then instead of actually using anyone's powers in any meaningful way they would just forget they had them so Shaw could win.

Pretty sound right? Guess Shaw's opponent need to be handicapped and fight like morons for him to stand a chance

Except that my point is that none of their powers would matter.

JuggerTwiman here seems to think that an entire army of vampires and wolves would literally pause and stare at Shaw while Alice uses her premonition in the most perfect way possible in order to determine how to bypass Shaw's extemely ambiguous power. And JuggerTwiman hasn't even established how exactly that'd work as thry have no means to harm him as all their powers would generate energy to charge Shaw no matter what and mind powers won't work as he has his helmet.

Like I said, it's stupid. You might wanna either look away of laugh hysterically. I'd do the latter in your place TBH.

I would think that unless they had xavier like mind stopping power they woulnt be able to hurt him with ot without helmet. Its the same thing as phoenix. If Jane does her pain thing (which is all i can see actually working on him) then hes gonna lash out earthquake tantrum style. Same as phoenix lashing out biblical disintegration plague style. The disco balls stand not a chance. Nor do the skinwalkers(literally as they cant wear a shirt for their lives).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except that my point is that none of their powers would matter.

JuggerTwiman here seems to think that an entire army of vampires and wolves would literally pause and stare at Shaw while Alice uses her premonition in the most perfect way possible in order to determine how to bypass Shaw's extemely ambiguous power. And JuggerTwiman hasn't even established how exactly that'd work as thry have no means to harm him as all their powers would generate energy to charge Shaw no matter what and mind powers won't work as he has his helmet.

Like I said, it's stupid. You might wanna either look away of laugh hysterically. I'd do the latter in your place TBH.

When did i saw everybody would wait for Alice? The Volturi would wait for Jane to do her mental thing like they've been shown to always do. It has been shown that it takes a few seconds for them to see it wasn't working in which time Alice would have seen the future and would be telling everyone what not to do. The wolves would wait til the vamps attacked like they always do.

So yeah they would have to fight like morons for him to win

Shaw would have to purposefully turn his own power off for the vamps to even hurt him.

Originally posted by juggerman
1 When did i say you were "against ppl using on screen responces"? Looks like hooked on phonics didn't work for you.

2 Aro is their leader. No one attacks without his say so. They didn't kill Bella even tho they wanted to. They didn't kill that random vamp in BD2 until he said so. They all wanted to attack the Cullens and wolves almost right away in BD2 but didn't since he didn't say so. They still wanted to attack after Aro announced the kid wasn't an immortal child yet a few words from Aro stopped that dead. They still wanted to attck after Aro saw the vision yet again Aro put a stop to it. How much more proof do you need. Im starting to think you've never even watched thses movies

3 They look to Alice and Edward for just about everything in the books and movies. Any time Alice has a vision of the future everyone takes heed. We never see the Eclipse fight in the books and in the movie we don't see the very start of it since the attention is on Edward and Bella. But we do know that Alice has already seen the fight and relayed info beforehand. But she did share battle info when she recieved it right away. Why would that change? And in BD2 she did relay what she could as soon as she could about Aro attacking regardless. There was no delay she did this right away

4 They've never been shown to work well with the Ciullens either before they did. What's that mean? Nothing. Either way the point is moot since they wouldn't attack or need this coordination

5 What are you talking about? Alice's vision aren't that random. She'll easily see what shes looking for. Your timing argument is pointless. She doesnt just sit and wait to get hit with a vision. It's a power she control's which is why she can look at people's future's specifically. She will see the future right away and tell everyone not to attack which will be easy since no one would have begun to attack right away anyway. Also her visions are pretty instant so there isn't a delay either.

She also doesn't need to figure out Shaw's power and that was never my point with her so nice try but fail. She would see that they Shaw waits to be attacked before counter attacking. This is important since she'll she if they don't attack 1st Shaw either won't either or will but lacks the power to harm any one. Then they can just BFR him

1. "And yet now you're going against "on screen proof of how ppl ACTUALLY respond aren't you". You fail BTW. You might wanna try to understand what you're reading or at least ask questions about what the other means is if you can't figure out what it is.

2. You didn't get my point, did you? Reread it pls. Hint: it wasn't about Aro's control of his vampires at all (w/c is unquestionable). You might wanna try to understand what you're reading or at least asl questions about what the other person means in case you can't figure out what it is.

3. They looked to Alice and Edward in instances outside combat. In combat situations, they simply executed a battle strategy. They never stopped their charge and "looked to Alice and Edward" to determine outcome once the battle has started or even right before the battle started to determine best tactic like you're suggesting they'd do here.

4. It means everything. There was (a deseperate) reason and context behind them working with the Cullens. None exist here. LOL @ "They wouldn't attack" in a VS battle. Nice logic there, sport.

5. They're not random, but they're not perfectly timed, either. They came to her subjectively in the movie. And no, her powers are based on ppl's decisions (as stated in movie) and aren't always clear. She'll see Shaw getting hit and ppl exploding. And no, they'll be attacking him.

You DO know they won't be able to attempt a BFR at any speed (especially at the speed they operate) w/o generating kinetic energy right and all Shaw needs to do is touch them? And how the hell are they even gonna BFR him anyway?

Originally posted by juggerman
When did i saw everybody would wait for Alice? The Volturi would wait for Jane to do her mental thing like they've been shown to always do. It has been shown that it takes a few seconds for them to see it wasn't working in which time Alice would have seen the future and would be telling everyone what not to do. The wolves would wait til the vamps attacked like they always do.

So yeah they would have to fight like morons for him to win

How the Volturi attack has no bearing on how the wolves behave. They'd see a lone human target (that would smell human, too) and assume easy pickings. No doubt Alice would try to warn them, but the one time a vampire tried to warn a wolf, this happened:

Edward: Leah, dont...!

Leah-wolf attacks newborn, gets outmaneuvered forcing Jacob to help her and gets HIS bones shattered instead.

Also, you don't seem to know how Alice's power works.

It's based on others' decisions. Once they makes/change their decision and commit to it, then her vision comes/changes. See: Twilight movie.

If they commit to using Jane her powers will only tell her it won't work. It won't "give her time to see the future" as the future will be based on the Volturi deciding on using Jane's power. Once they find out that Jane's power won't work and decide to attack, that's when her vision comes (IF she focuses on the Volturi, btw). It is arguable (at the speeds they move) that she'd have time to warn them or even if they'd hear her over the thunder of the footsteps.

No, they don't have to fight like morons, just not fight with the benefit of charcter bios knowledge. A person arguing that they'd win, however.....