Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
Boring conversation anyway.

Rookwood we're gonna have company!

*Hurries up and walks down the hallway*

*Opens the cell-door to see DARTH POWER laying down in a princess gown*

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Aren't you a little short to be a Moderator?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You're who?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Borbarad, where is he?!

(Sorry, couldn't resist 😛)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Are people really claiming that the Children of the Emperor make Vitiate more impressive than Palpatine...the same Palpatine that masked his presence from the Jedi Order for decades, while being on the same world as their homeworld.
He pulled the wool over the eyes of the Jedi Order in its golden age, with Masters like Yoda, and Mace not even being able to pierce the shroud of the Dark Side...that was embodied in him.

Exemplary Jedi existed during TOR era as well and all of them were fooled.

Sith Emperor took Sidious's masking feat to new heights by deploying his secret servants within the Jedi Order and masked them from across the Galaxy to such a degree that no Jedi was able to suspect this development; Sith Emperor had such control over them. Keep in mind that the risk of detection increases with so many infiltrators involved.

It is always easier for a single individual to mask his/her true identity, if the said individual is very smart and proficient in this aspect. However, Sidious was eventually discovered. Unfortunately, it was too late by then.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'll find the stupidity of such individuals is quite... legendary.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not everybody can master two languages to the extent Borbarad/Nai has.

Profiled.

I was clearly drunk when I typed that. It doesn't count.

Agreed, Bane solos.

This response of mine seems to be relevant for this thread as well:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The 'celebrated swordmasters' argument means jack.

Here is one example:

Jedi Master Usma was one of the Order's most celebrated duelists in its history; she was cut down by a Sith apprentice Praven during the Sacking of Coruscant inside the Jedi Temple.

Funny thing is that Malgus regarded Jedi Master Ven Zallow as the only worthy opponent for him among all the Jedi during this raid.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I was clearly drunk when I typed that. It doesn't count.

"In vino veritas" - Gaius Plinius Secundus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This response of mine seems to be relevant for this thread as well:

I do agree "Celebrated Swordsmen" means jack when comparing them to the more noteworthy Jedi/Sith.

Out of those 3 I'll give Fisto some credit for doing well against Grievous. And that's probably why he was the only one of the 3 "Celebrated Swordsmen" who able to last a few seconds against Sidious.

But that doesn't even put him ahead of Eeth Koth who was defeating Grievous with a wounded arm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I do agree "Celebrated Swordsmen" means jack when comparing them to the more noteworthy Jedi/Sith.

Out of those 3 I'll give Fisto some credit for doing well against Grievous. And that's probably why he was the only one of the 3 "Celebrated Swordsmen" who able to last a few seconds against Sidious.

But that doesn't even put him ahead of Eeth Koth who was defeating Grievous with a wounded arm.

Fisto did well against Grievous because of his command in Form I. This form, if mastered, works well against unorthodox styles and also against incoming fire coming from different angles.

However, Fisto's combat style was not without weaknesses and flaws. He sucked against Assaj Ventress as an example. Not good for a 'celebrated swordsmaster'. No wonder, Sidious showed him the door so early.

Ventress is pretty awesome though.

Easily tooling Grievous is no small feat considering how much Kenobi consistently struggles against him.

As for Tiin and Kolar:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Among them, Saesee Tiin, who is regarded as possessing some of the strongest Force abilities in the order at the time (The Official Fact File #114) and renowned for his telepathic gifts among the Jedi (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)? Or Agen Kolar, who held his own against Mace Windu in their sparring matches and curbstomped Quinlan Vos in a manner unlike any but Count Dooku?

Obviously these jedi masters had reputations of being among the orders greatest for a reason.

Wasn't it Mace who thought that? He could just be wrong. He can't exactly judge peoples dueling skills who were alive before he was even born.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily tooling Grievous is no small feat considering how much Kenobi consistently struggles against him.

Fisto's combat style was more suited for handling Grievous.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for Tiin and Kolar:

No amount of verbal fellatos can overcome the shortcomings of these characters.

Mace took these guys with him because he had worked with them before and they formed a good team. But Mace miscalculated the threat posed by Sidious.

And sparring matches prove nothing. The fight itself proves that Mace became much superior combatant then his peers. Heck, Mace is touted as a Champion of the Jedi Order like Revan now.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obviously these jedi masters had reputations of being among the orders greatest for a reason.

More about Praven:

A Sith pureblood, Lord Praven has trained in the ways of the Force since the earliest years of his youth. Fiercely loyal to the Emperor and an ardent believer in the philosophical teachings of the dark side, Praven is surprisingly calm and collected in his speech and actions. He follows a strict code of personal honor, and unlike many other Sith, he eschews random acts of cruelty and sadism. Despite this, he is sworn to destroy the Jedi and considers them his mortal enemies. During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi’s most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma’s young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't it Mace who thought that? He could just be wrong. He can't exactly judge peoples dueling skills who were alive before he was even born.

True. But they should at least be pretty familiar with their era, which consisted of about 10,000 jedi.

Shaak Ti also thought that as well, and I think Yoda and Obi Wan did too. But I'm not basing my opinion on quotes alone.

I followed that link you gave me and downloaded the Novel, but I'm too lazy to look right now lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No amount of verbal fellatos can overcome the shortcomings of these characters.

And no amount of "verbal fellatos" can overcome the fact that Revan has never shown the speed to compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And no amount of "verbal fellatos" can overcome the fact that Revan has never shown the speed to compete with Sidious.

- Palpatine was described as blur in movement during his combat against the Jedi Strike Team that came to arrest him.

- Padawan Obi-Wan was also once described as blur in movement in one of the events.

So shall we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan is as fast as Sidious?

Speed based arguments will remain ambiguous unfortunately as I found out in the debates. I suggest that you grasp this lesson too.

Point is that Revan's precognitive abilities are extraordinary by both Jedi and Echani standards. This has been proved when he cut down an Imperial Guard in few steps. The Imperial Guard individuals could (canonically) go toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists; as they proved by giving tough time to both Scourge and Meetra. As much as this hurts you, an individual of Revan's calibre cannot be blitzed. End of story.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily tooling Grievous is no small feat

Not much better than Eeth Koth and he had a wounded arm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
considering how much Kenobi consistently struggles against him.

He gets kicked sometimes. Big deal. Ventress got kicked on to her ass by Grievous before she came back and tooled him, without even resorting to force attacks.

Fact is it's ALWAYS Grievous who ends up running from Kenobi after they fight.

I mean for crying out loud Ashoka held her own against Grievous recently. So it really proves jack.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
True. But they should at least be pretty familiar with their era, which consisted of about 10,000 jedi.

That's Exactly why it's not reliable.

Those 3 could be better than 9,990 Jedi and naturally be considered damn good.

But that could still easily put them well below the Elite's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Back to same old tricks?

- Palpatine was described as blur in movement during his combat against the Jedi Strike Team that came to arrest him.

- Padawan Obi-Wan was also once described as blur in movement in one of the events.

So shall we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan is as fast as Sidious?

Speed based arguments will remain ambiguous unfortunately as I found out in the debates. I suggest that you grasp this lesson too.

Point is that Revan's precognitive abilities are extraordinary by both Jedi and Echani standards. This has been proved when he cut down an Imperial Guard in few steps. The Imperial Guard individuals could (canonically) go toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists; as they proved by giving tough time to both Scourge and Meetra. As much as this hurts you, an individual of Revan's calibre cannot be blitzed. End of story.

No, because the term 'blur' as you said indicates an ambiguous amount of speed, not a fixed speed. It may even count as hyperbole. We don't typically even consider things such as that in these forum debates. What we do do (hehehe) is examine factual occurances. Sidious was able to outspeed 3 Jedi Masters, at least one of which can deal with Grievous who is fast enough to seem to teleport distances in terms of raw speed. That is an incredible amount of swiftness. No matter how much you honk your horn about Revan beating an Imperial Guard, or any amount of fanciful phrases he may or may not have to his name, Revan does not have anything that can hope to compete with that.

In a duel, Sidious would be able to outspeed and outfight Revan because of this.

@DARTH POWER

Nicely put again. Your reasoning abilities are good.

Unfortunately, these blind fans just don't get it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Back to same old tricks?

- Palpatine was described as blur in movement during his combat against the Jedi Strike Team that came to arrest him.

- Padawan Obi-Wan was also once described as blur in movement in one of the events.

So shall we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan is as fast as Sidious?

No. One blur is faster (lol). Are you even considering who they were being seen as a blur to?

Do you see why no one takes you seriously? When Obi Wan can move faster than a force user can react to, then maybe you can compare them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that Revan's precognitive abilities are extraordinary.

So was master Tiin's as Tempest pointed out, but you so rudely dismissed it just because his feat with precognition is far greater than Revan's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not much better than Eeth Koth and he had a wounded arm.

Good for Eeth Koth. Does this change anything?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He gets kicked sometimes. Big deal. Ventress got kicked on to her ass by Grievous before she came back and tooled him, without even resorting to force attacks.

Putting Obi Wan on his ass consistently is not a big deal? Especially when one of the times Grievous had the opportunity of finishing Obi Wan off, but instead stands over Obi Wan taunting him, allowing Obi Wan generate a powerful force push?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is it's ALWAYS Grievous who ends up running from Kenobi after they fight.

He still gives Obi Wan a struggle - a struggle he didn't give Fisto.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean for crying out loud Ashoka held her own against Grievous recently. So it really proves jack.

You mean the time she was ragdolled and forced to flee?

Besides, she's pretty good. How does any of this change the fact that Obi Wan consistently struggles against Grievous?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's Exactly why it's not reliable.

Those 3 could be better than 9,990 Jedi and naturally be considered damn good.

But that could still easily put them well below the Elite's.

And who do you consider to be elites?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because the term 'blur' as you said indicates an ambiguous amount of speed, not a fixed speed. It may even count as hyperbole. We don't typically even consider things such as that in these forum debates.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What we do do (hehehe) is examine factual occurances. Sidious was able to outspeed 3 Jedi Masters, at least one of which can deal with Grievous who is fast enough to seem to teleport distances in terms of raw speed. That is an incredible amount of swiftness. No matter how much you honk your horn about Revan beating an Imperial Guard, or any amount of fanciful phrases he may or may not have to his name, Revan does not have anything that can hope to compete with that.

In a duel, Sidious would be able to outspeed and outfight Revan because of this.

That speed feat of Grievous once again proves nothing. Do you know that all trained Jedi are supposed to be exceptionally fast?

In combat situation, the whole game revolves around two fundamental aspects:

1. Precognition
2. Reaction

Scourge was extraordinary in all of these aspects even by Jedi standards. This is why he was so feared in combat. And yet, Imperial Guard individuals proved to be a formidable test for his abilities.

Revan also faced one Imperial Guard individual (who was fighting Meetra previously) and Revan was so damn good in the aforementioned aspects that he cut down his opponent in 2 steps, if counted (which could have happened in a span of a second). Problem is with Drew's writing quality; it isn't very well done but a good analyst can grasp his intended message.