Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

Nephthys
Vitiate surpasses him in telepathy at least.

lolno

The Emperor, at his peak, subjugated billions and manipulated the thoughts of Coruscant's population to conceal the burial of a Super Star Destroyer. Vitiate doesn't come close at all.

Nephthys
And he also does so in Force Lightning. Nyriss' lightning turned herself into ash upon being turned back on her, even after tearing through her Force shields. Thats more powerful than Marek and Sidious'. Vitiates is infinitely more powerful than that. Do the math.

Nah, bro. The Emperor's Force lightning reduced Sith acolytes to ash, slaying and mortally injuring Jedi.

On that note, though, are we taking the quote about Vitiate's lightning as literal truth now? Because you were disinclined to do so elsewhere.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lolno

The Emperor, at his peak, subjugated billions and manipulated the thoughts of Coruscant's population to conceal the burial of a Super Star Destroyer. Vitiate doesn't come close at all.

Nah, bro. The Emperor's Force lightning reduced Sith acolytes to ash, slaying and mortally injuring Jedi.

On that note, though, are we taking the quote about Vitiate's lightning as literal truth now? Because you were disinclined to do so elsewhere.

After ****ing years through unknown means. haermm

Yeah, thats usable in combat!

Thats.... not even close to being as impressive.

I'm allowed to change my mind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
After ****ing years through unknown means. haermm

Yeah, thats usable in combat!

Never said it was usable in combat, bro. Nice attempt to move the goalpost, though. 😂

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats.... not even close to being as impressive.

Yep, it's only impressive when you take out a Sith Lord in an era where they're ragdolled in quick succession by lowly Republic troopers. Way to set the standard at impossible heights, bro!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm allowed to change my mind.

You might want to change your underwear, bro, because I detect rectal hemorrhaging. 😂

I actually like Legend.. There I said it!!!

Oh my Nephthys. Tempest is kicking you ass bro.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Oh my Nephthys. Tempest is kicking you ass bro.

He's used to it.

It's the nature of our relationship, he enjoys being punished. :3

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Never said it was usable in combat, bro. Nice attempt to move the goalpost, though. 😂

Whatever, it isn't as impressive as Vitiates feats. If you're allowing prep then the V-maester destroys him. 8000 SITH LORDS BOTCH! HOWS THAT! TASTES LIKE SWAG HUH?!

You're damn right it does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yep, it's only impressive when you take out a Sith Lord in an era where they're ragdolled in quick succession by lowly Republic troopers. Way to set the standard at impossible heights, bro!

Non-force sensitives have been able to pose a threat to powerful force users for a while now. Don't hate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You might want to change your underwear, bro, because I detect rectal hemorrhaging. 😂

I don't really.... know what that means but... your dumb. You butt.

My concluding remarks are as follows:

First, on the matter of Dooku & Vader vs. Vitiate, it's pretty evident that the duo curbstomp. The Revan text is replete with evidence that the Emperor relies on preparation and exudes effort from street-level telekinesis (knocking Revan back at the beginning of the fight, from which Revan was unharmed) to Force lightning (which did injure Revan critically because he assumed his two choices were charge or stand still). Telepathically, the effect is not instantaneous per the text: it is precisely because the Emperor was "unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind" that Vitiate is consequently ragdolled. Vader and Dooku have vastly superior telekinetic feats than Revan or Vitiate in both raw power and skill. Combined with their superior feats as swordsmen, it is pretty apparent they have an edge. If Vitiate has time to prepare, perhaps the outcome differs. But left to his natural abilities, this guy is a colossal disappointment, even when able to draw power from his dark side nexus of a throneworld.

Second, on the relevant thread topic: Malgus and Revan are fodder for Sidious, who by comparison of feats discussed previously is significantly faster. Then poor Bane is triple-teamed and subsequently crushed.

It's been fun bantering with Neph and lecturing LeGenD, but unless anyone else has anything substantive to add, I think I'm done.

Aw man, I was just getting into a really giggly mood.

Horny giggly.

>:]
> :]
>:]
> :]
>:]

Nephthys
Whatever, it isn't as impressive as Vitiates feats. If you're allowing prep then the V-maester destroys him. 8000 SITH LORDS BOTCH! HOWS THAT! TASTES LIKE SWAG HUH?!

You're damn right it does.

I am pleased you've caught on and correspondingly adjusted the impertinent tone of your counterarguments. You would do well to respect and fear my wrath.

Anyway, no. First, the figure comes from an in-universe source concerning an unverified legend that even a reputable member of the Dark Council was unable to corroborate. Second, there is no evidence that these featless Sith Lords in question would be powerful enough to consider their subjugation impressive. Third, even if they were, there is no evidence to suggest that they attempted to muster a defense. Fourth, we do not know what sort of preparative efforts were made by Vitiate for such a task. Fifth, 8,000 featless Sith Lords versus 20 billion featless mundanes is not remotely comparable: Sidious's feat is infinitely more astounding in scale and scope, to say nothing of his efforts with respect to Coruscant.

Nephthys
Non-force sensitives have been able to pose a threat to powerful force users for a while now. Don't hate.

Very rarely in single combat where the trooper in question is outnumbered heavily and still mows through Sith Lords as though they weren't even there.

Nephthys
I don't really.... know what that means but... your dumb. You butt.

I was suggesting I raped you anally. Deal with it, bro.

Love u

Now I'm done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, on the matter of Dooku & Vader vs. Vitiate, it's pretty evident that the duo curbstomp.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let me guess; you are clueless about Sith Emperor's capabilities.

Here is just ONE example:

YouTube video

Sith Emperor broke the entire Jedi Strike Team easily.

Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia contains detailed information about the Sith Emperor. Buy it and read it. Very informative.

&

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Overpowering this Jedi Strike Team is just ONE example. Sith Emperor have handled multiple powerful adversaries on other occasions.

A few that I recall are:

- Darth Lokess who led a whole Dark Council against the Sith Emperor. Most of them died in a single blast of power once they reached the Imperial Citadel. The Sith Emperor imprisoned Darth Lokess and tortured her to death.

- Sith Emperor summoned 9 Dark Council members to his place during the time of Revan and none of them left alive, as per information provided by Scourge.

- When the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge were facing the Sith Emperor; the latter was confident that he would handle the trio. Scourge realized that all of them could die and therefore betrayed the Jedi.

Neither Dooku and nor Vader have experience with a foe like Sith Emperor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Revan text is replete with evidence that the Emperor relies on preparation

Originally posted by The_Tempest
and exudes effort from street-level telekinesis (knocking Revan back at the beginning of the fight, from which Revan was unharmed)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
to Force lightning (which did injure Revan critically because he assumed his two choices were charge or stand still).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Telepathically, the effect is not instantaneous per the text: it is precisely because the Emperor was "unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind" that Vitiate is consequently ragdolled.

Vitiate wasn't prepared for Revan's counter-attack while he was in the process of performing mind-domination. This move came as a surprise to even Vitiate because no one had ever succeeded in doing this before.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader and Dooku have vastly superior telekinetic feats than Revan or Vitiate in both raw power and skill.

Darth Malgus have comparable telekinetic feats. And he stood no chance against Satele Shan. On top of this, Grand Jedi Master herself was reluctant to face the Sith Emperor.

During the second encounter with Hero of Tython; the Sith Emperor collapsed the entire structure with his telekinetic capabilities after his Voice was struck down. This feat alone proves that the Sith Emperor is not inferior to Dooku and Vader in telekinetic abilities.

Now some revelations about the capabilties of Darth Jadus:

"Hold a huge part of a sith warship together with his powers after being blown up to keep himself alive . Shown to be able to bend space and time by teleporting across the room before the IA's companion Kaliyo , could even pull the trigger and choke her at the same time."

And this Sith Lord was second to the Sith Emperor in terms of power. This evidence actually suggests that Vitiate would be vastly superior to both Vader and Dooku in power and even telekinetic abilities. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Combined with their superior feats as swordsmen, it is pretty apparent they have an edge.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If Vitiate has time to prepare, perhaps the outcome differs.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But left to his natural abilities, this guy is a colossal disappointment, even when able to draw power from his dark side nexus of a throneworld.

The guy was interrupted from his Super-Ritual which was co complex that he would have eliminated entire Galaxy with it. Yes, you heard this correct. Such an interruption greatly diminished his ability to fight otherwise he took care of the same Hero of Tythin very well in the previous encounter.

Also, even at such a weakened state, Vitiate managed to collapse the entire structure where he was seated and this after getting struck down.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Second, on the relevant thread topic: Malgus and Revan are fodder for Sidious, who by comparison of feats discussed previously is significantly faster. Then poor Bane is triple-teamed and subsequently crushed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malgus have contended with relatively stronger foes and survived; and even defeated relatively stronger foes.

About those 3 Jedi Masters;

Kolar: Sparring matches prove nothing. Jedi don't kill in sparring matches; they simply test their abilities in safest possible manner in them. Also, Mace got better, didn't he?

Yes, Kolar handled Vos. Good. However, I don't recall Vos as being among the Elites of the Jedi Order. Any other person of note whom Kolar handled?

Kolar sounds like PT equivalent of Kavar from TOR at best.

Fisto: He handled Grievous because of his proficiency with Form I of lightsaber combat. However, he sucked in one-on-one confrontation against a skilled duelist such as Assaj. His failure against Sidious doesn't surprises me.

Tin: Apart from verbal fellatos; I don't see any major accomplishments of this Jedi in combat either.

Sorry! I disagree with this. Reasons mentioned above. If we consider combat history; none of these Jedi Masters compare to Revan and Malgus.

No amount of verbal fellatos can prove these Jedi Masters to be superior to Revan and Malgus and, combat history, wise, they are actually inferior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It's been fun bantering with Neph and lecturing LeGenD, but unless anyone else has anything substantive to add, I think I'm done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Emperor, at his peak, subjugated billions and manipulated the thoughts of Coruscant's population to conceal the burial of a Super Star Destroyer. Vitiate doesn't come close at all.

In contrast, Vitiate was exceptional at mind-dominating trained Force-wielders. Try to comprehend the difference.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, bro. The Emperor's Force lightning reduced Sith acolytes to ash,

Originally posted by The_Tempest
slaying and mortally injuring Jedi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
On that note, though, are we taking the quote about Vitiate's lightning as literal truth now? Because you were disinclined to do so elsewhere.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anyway, no. First, the figure comes from an in-universe source concerning an unverified legend that even a reputable member of the Dark Council was unable to corroborate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Second, there is no evidence that these featless Sith Lords in question would be powerful enough to consider their subjugation impressive.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Third, even if they were, there is no evidence to suggest that they attempted to muster a defense. Fourth, we do not know what sort of preparative efforts were made by Vitiate for such a task.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Fifth, 8,000 featless Sith Lords versus 20 billion featless mundanes is not remotely comparable: Sidious's feat is infinitely more astounding in scale and scope, to say nothing of his efforts with respect to Coruscant.

He should have mind-dominated Luke, Gallen, Mace, Yoda or whomever came to challenge him or disobeyed him. And yet, he never even attempted to do so. Or was he not capable? Something doesn't adds-up here.

In contrast, Vitiate, at least, have history of mind-dominating powerful adversaries in combat situations.

All accounts show that dominating billions of fodder means nothing in comparison to trained Force-wielders. Such is the power of the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Very rarely in single combat where the trooper in question is outnumbered heavily and still mows through Sith Lords as though they weren't even there.

In fact, Mandalorians were giving tough time to Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars.

So once again, you are proven wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You are probably not getting the whole picture.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan, Scourge and Meetra planned to assassinate the Sith Emperor. Once inside the Citadel, their cover was blown and the Sith Emperor's Imperial Guard engaged them in combat. According to all accounts, the Imperial Guard individuals were highly skilled warriors, capable of matching Jedi and Sith in combat. The Imperial Guard individuals gave tough time to both Meetra and Scourge as an example. Both of these individuals were EXPERT duelists. However, Revan cut-down an Imperial Guard individual in just a couple of steps (only a few seconds) due to his exceptional precognitive abilities and I cited his performance here.

You really are that thick headed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

However, what about the comparison that I made:

How you perceive this?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now tell me; how can I have a decent debate with member (Nephthys) and not you guys?

Reason is that he has decent knowledge of TOR lore and he also knows how to debate. And he is more of a fan of PT/OT lore then TOR lore, if I am not wrong about his preferences.

So try to remedy your own debate related shortcomings as well.

I have an SW and IA character, i prefer the setting, i prefer some of the storylines and i find the TOR setting way more "colorful" and happening if you actually play the game.

This whole "debate" was me simply pointing out the flaws and errors in the methods you use to argue, but as i once again predict, you spurt a bunch of bullshit about an argument about Revan which i am not interested in without actually thinking what im trying to tell you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No.

You want me to use game-play mechanics for citation purposes now? 🙄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The benefit of TFU novels is to eliminate ambiguities (in TFU games) and canonify the exploits of Gallen. So it makes perfect sense to use TFU novels for citation purposes.

However, as Drew once pointed out in one of his newsletters;

Let's set the record straight right now: games and books are NOT the same thing. In a game, we have to constantly progress the power level of a character to keep things interesting. In a book, any character progression is slow and arduous – it often makes up the character arc, which is the whole point of the book. The two mediums are meant to convey different experiences and the two representations of the character cannot simply be laid overtop of each other.

Regardless of this, I do not ignore important canonical depictions in games such as cutscenes and footage. Heck, it makes sense to cite all "statements" made in the games because they too provide solid interpretations of events and the means to evaluate the actions of characters and their abilities.

Now, if their are continuity errors/conflicts between sources; then this is not my fault. I try to work with all sources, though I also prefer to identify RETCONS.

You yourself stated the TFU cutscenes are too overpowered, and that you wouldn't ever use them as a source nor would you acknowledge it in a debate.

I don't recall making such a statement. I may have stated that I would avoid using game-play mechanics for references; not the cutscenes, statements and footage materials.

If I ever have made such a statement; it would have been a typo error since I often edit my responses several times after I have posted them to eliminate any mistakes/errors. unfortunately, edit time is very short in this forum. [/B][/QUOTE] Yes you did, unfortunately i can't find that statement you made because you said this a while back, but you stated about using the movies a "benchmark" for realistic force display, and that because the TFU scenes are too "over the top", you said you wouldn't use them as a source.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No. Some members misunderstand me and are probably not 'used to' my debating style.

Point is that many PT/OT fans are unwilling to work with me to reach a middle-ground. They will do anything to put down the elites of TOR era lore without doing sufficient homework themselves. This is a sign of bias and it is evident from their responses.

I do like PT/OT lore and you will be surprised that Yoda, Anakin, Maul, Sidious and Dooku are one of my favorite characters in Star Wars. However, I am not in to needless hype either.

Fact is that EU have changed a lot about how many Star Wars fans may interpret character rankings. EU have overpowered Force-wielders and all the aforementioned PT/OT characters compete with other EU characters in terms of feats and accomplishments on the basis of EU materials and not movies. Unfortunately, some characters are much more well-defined then others. Due to missing bits; debaters are forced to rely on shortest possible hints to make a portrayal of a not so well-defined character.

Also, I can judge the intentions of a debater early on. If he/she is simply going to put down all of the information that I provided without appreciating the beauty of it or attempt to learn about it or work with me; then he/she is not worthy of being appreciated by me or I wouldn't bother to explain things to her in the level of detail that I may otherwise would want to.

Just consider your case; your responding to my posts so this gives me motive to explain my points better then I would early on. This is how we can reach a middle-ground in debates. I hope that we do reach on something. Otherwise, tough.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I disgree. I debate Star Wars for fun and not for writing thesis. You don't know about my intellect in the subjects where I really do specialize in.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I advice you to debate for fun as well but do take points of others seriously. You can do this and you will be a better debater then many in this manner. The real quality of a great debater is that he can work with any kind of debater. Unfortunately, many simply start flaming others before a debate even reaches this point. This not just spoils the debating scene but paves way for resentments and useless rivalries.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I cannot work with (The_Tempest) with the kind of attitude he shows towards me.

And you qualify to make this assumption in what manner?

You won't examples of debaters with whom you cannot even have a debate?

One is in this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=562952&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Emperor, at his peak, subjugated billions and manipulated the thoughts of Coruscant's population to conceal the burial of a Super Star Destroyer.

Also this...

The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook (Clone B-2332-54)

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

^Palpatine instantly puts Vader on his knees via a telepathic assault, while in another part of the galaxy.

also @Neph, How is Vitiate's lightning superior to Palpatine's?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks for sharing this information.

Well, it reveals that how dangerous even (non) Force-sensitives can be.

His involvement in the IA's story gave me way more chills than Darth Baras in the SW story.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your most recent post about me is very insulting. Sorry. I cannot tolerate this. Reported

Let's see Vitiate conjure a wormhole in space and time.

The only other thing in the EU capable of that was an object, and the Dark Staff could destroy entire worlds and teleport star systems into another dimension. It was more powerful than the Death Star, and Palpatine was pretty close.

Plagueis displayed superior power in combat to Vitiate, "atmozing" every assailant around shows a demonstration of telekinesis only surpassed by Abeloth after losing a mind battle.

We're a thousand years of Sith growing progressively stronger since Darth Zannah. Per Dark Empire Palpatine had went far far far beyond his natural "Force potential", and could increase Force sensitivity in his servants in an equally unnatural manner - making them stronger than even a Jedi Master despite being only semi-Force sensitive to begin with.

And let's not forget the skill in Sith alchemy that was required of Sidious and Plagueis for the Grand Experiment. These Sith were the only Sith capable of covering a galaxy in Dark Side energy, forcing the midi-chlorians to create a Super Force-sensitive child.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Actually, you don't get the whole picture, nor do you get any of my points.

How about exceptional precognitive abilities and reactions that complement such abilities? Good enough?

Originally posted by shinkoryu
*facepalm*, Was i arguing against Revans accomplishment or that he was a skilled fighter? Sweet Jesus i was pointing out the FLAWS in your argument!

Originally posted by shinkoryu
You really are that thick headed.

Did i say because every jedi/sith has the ability to "react instantly" means they won't ever get beaten? Shit happens sometimes, its part and parcel of life.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Remedy my own short comings? I don't give a crap about the PT/OT anymore mr "legend", if you actually get any of my points which you don't, i actually prefer the TOR era.

I have an SW and IA character, i prefer the setting, i prefer some of the storylines and i find the TOR setting way more "colorful" and happening if you actually play the game.

This whole "debate" was me simply pointing out the flaws and errors in the methods you use to argue, but as i once again predict, you spurt a bunch of bullshit about an argument about Revan which i am not interested in without actually thinking what im trying to tell you.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Interactive cutscenes.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Don't try to justify your hypocrisy, you mean you can't even admit to ignoring sources?

Originally posted by shinkoryu
You yourself stated the TFU cutscenes are too overpowered, and that you wouldn't ever use them as a source nor would you acknowledge it in a debate.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Yes you did, unfortunately i can't find that statement you made because you said this a while back, but you stated about using the movies a "benchmark" for realistic force display, and that because the TFU scenes are too "over the top", you said you wouldn't use them as a source.

If I had made such a statement, it would be typing error that I overlooked.

For realistic Force display part; my argument was about Non-CGI 2D Animated CW and not TFU, if I recall correctly. TOR era characters have not been depicted in this kind of medium yet, which allows characters to be ridiculously overpowered and any sort of comparison is invalidated due to differences in the nature of sources/depictions.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
What can i say? No one wants to get on a middle ground with you, but instead go to a ground thats NOT near you, you're stubborn like a donkey, and thats why you rile up a lot of members trying to get their point across.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Just consider your case; your responding to my posts so this gives me motive to explain my points better then I would early on. This is how we can reach a middle-ground in debates. I hope that we do reach on something. Otherwise, tough.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
You seem to take it pretty damn seriously for trying to have "fun". Go entertain yourself some other way.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Not a debater hunny, nor am i interested in being one, if its nerdy discussions about a game or lore we like, im all in for discussing(EVERYONE is guilty of having a nerd side), not debating whose more powerful than who which is just kiddish and stupid in my opinion.

Well, I am not competing with anyone either.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
You're marginally better than him though. Marginal

Thanks. 😛

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also this...

^Palpatine instantly puts Vader on his knees via a telepathic assault, while in another part of the galaxy.

The Sith Emperor can even mask/suppress the Force-sensitivity of these individuals at will to conceal them within the Jedi Order. And the Sith Emperor controls them from another part of the Galaxy.

More impressive, correct?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
also @Neph, How is Vitiate's lightning superior to Palpatine's?