Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No. One blur is faster (lol). Are you even considering who they were being seen as a blur to?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you see why no one takes you seriously? When Obi Wan can move faster than a force user can react to, then maybe you can compare them.

Anakin himself could be blur in physical movement. What he thinks about Sidious's movements is irrelevant since he himself cut down Dooku; who could go toe-to-toe with Yoda; and who in turn could go toe-to-toe with Sidious.

Try to see through the glass.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So was master Tiin's as Tempest pointed out, but you so rudely dismissed it just because his feat with precognition is far greater than Revan's.

We didn't see Anakin, Dooku and Yoda performing that feat of Tiin's either and yet all of the former were better duelists. Get the picture?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And now you are committing the same blunder, which you cautioned me against right above.

That speed feat of Grievous once again proves nothing. Do you know that all trained Jedi are supposed to be exceptionally fast?

In combat situation, the whole game revolves around two fundamental aspects:

1. Precognition
2. Reaction

Scourge was extraordinary in all of these aspects even by Jedi standards. This is why he was so feared in combat. And yet, Imperial Guard individuals proved to be a formidable test for his abilities.

Revan also faced one Imperial Guard individual (who was fighting Meetra previously) and Revan was so damn good in the aforementioned aspects that he cut down his opponent in 2 steps, if counted (which could have happened in a span of a second). Problem is with Drew's writing quality; it isn't very well done but a good analyst can grasp his intended message.

Revan beat the Imperial Guard through skill. At no point was speed mentioned at all. The guy simply dropped his guard because he was a moron and thought he knew what Revan was going to do. Not impressive at all.

Also its 3. Force Speed. In which Revan has no obviously impressive feats.

Edit: I wouldn't even call it skill. It seemed more like he got the guard from the short side of the bus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan beat the Imperial Guard through skill. At no point was speed mentioned at all. The guy simply dropped his guard because he was a moron and thought he knew what Revan was going to do. Not impressive at all.

Let us analyze the whole fight in step-by-step fashion:

1. Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

This statement reveals Imperial Guard individuals were on a whole different league in comparison to other individuals. Think of them as Bruce Lee-like or better.

2. One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.

Note here that Revan's movement is so fast that he outpaces a dueling move of the Imperial Guard individual.

3. Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive.

Taking advantage of the slight tumble is the key observation here. The rest is just secondary detail and explanation.

This slight tumble changed the game entirely in Revan's favor.

Now the actual duel part:

4. He came in with a high, overhand chop—an obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent upward, leaving his legs exposed to a quick follow-up strike.

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn’t go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent’s defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man’s suddenly exposed throat.

You see? The Imperial Guard already had experience with other duelists. He was putting his experience to use here. However, he underestimated Revan's precognitive abilities; this Jedi stood apart from all others. Revan accurately predicted the next move of the Imperial Guard individual and slaughtered him.

So in two steps, Revan cut down an opponent who could go toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists.

Try to comprehend Revan's abilities here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Try to understand that individuals are not involved in a racing contest in combat. The whole game revolves around two aspects; precognition and reaction. Both of these aspects should complement each other to form an effective combination.

Who told you that no one takes me seriously? Do not try to be member (The_Tempest) here.

Anakin himself could be blur in physical movement. What he thinks about Sidious's movements is irrelevant since he himself cut down Dooku; who could go toe-to-toe with Yoda; and who in turn could go toe-to-toe with Sidious.

Try to see through the glass.

I dismissed it on logical grounds. With those supposedly lightspeed reflexes, he should have easily outgunned Sidious. However, this didn't happen. Therefore, I assume that their is a flaw in understanding of the member (The_Tempest) about this aspect.

We didn't see Anakin, Dooku and Yoda performing that feat of Tiin's either and yet all of the former were better duelists. Get the picture?

What you are doing is no different than trolling.

The only thing I do want to say is, I do find Tiin's lightspeed feat a bit too extreme. Maybe the writer didn't realize how fast he was making Tiin's reaction speed out to be, but seeing how Obi Wan admits that Tiin's ability with that aspect was beyond his, I think it's safe to say that Tiin's precognition and reaction speed are meant to be far beyond average. And as you would say if it were about Revan, "try to understand the intended message."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also its 3. Force Speed. In which Revan has no obviously impressive feats.

Using the Force, he was able to anticipate and react to the erratic flight with instantaneous precision adjustments, keeping the ship aloft until it regained its equilibrium.

Of-course, in combat, various factors can get involved. Force speed can also be involved but the whole situation revolves around precogition and reaction.

Reaction rate is a form of speed actually.

As an example;

You remember the speed with which this feat was performed?

This was reaction rate. Satele anticipated Malgus's killing blow earlier and then reacted in this manner in response to escape from death.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: I wouldn't even call it skill. It seemed more like he got the guard from the short side of the bus.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What you are doing is no different than trolling.

When you lost the argument; you resorted to this taunt. Typical of PT/OT era character worshippers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only thing I do want to say is, I do find Tiin's lightspeed feat a bit too extreme. Maybe the writer didn't realize how fast he was making Tiin's reaction speed out to be, but seeing how Obi Wan admits that Tiin's ability with that aspect was beyond his, I think it's safe to say that Tiin's precognition and reaction speed are meant to be far beyond average. And as you would say if it were about Revan, "try to understand the intended message."

Obi-Wan's thinking means jack when he himself is great duelist.

Of-course, I am not saying that Tin sucked or something. You do not need to tell me that how impressive he was. I have read all the statements.

But the fact is that you just do not get the 'ambiquity factor' in these kinds of arguments.

We do not know what will happen if Revan and Sidious meet face-to-face in combat. We can only speculate. However, Revan have talents that allow him to hold his own against heavy odds. And Revan have considerably better resume in context of combat then Tinn. But of-course, you will overlook this as you have done in the past.

Revan's still cool.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No. Every single moment counted. And that guy was not a moron.

Let us analyze the whole fight in step-by-step fashion:

1. Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

This statement reveals Imperial Guard individuals were on a whole different league in comparison to other individuals. Think of them as Bruce Lee-like or better.

2. One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.

Note here that Revan's movement is so fast that he outpaces a dueling move of the Imperial Guard individual.

3. Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive.

Taking advantage of the slight tumble is the key observation here. The rest is just secondary detail and explanation.

This slight tumble changed the game entirely in Revan's favor.

Now the actual duel part:

4. He came in with a high, overhand chop—an obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent upward, leaving his legs exposed to a quick follow-up strike.

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn’t go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent’s defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man’s suddenly exposed throat.

You see? The Imperial Guard already had experience with other duelists. He was putting his experience to use here. However, he underestimated Revan's precognitive abilities; this Jedi stood apart from all others. Revan accurately predicted the next move of the Imperial Guard individual and slaughtered him.

So in two steps, Revan cut down an opponent who could go toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists.

Try to comprehend Revan's abilities here.

Oh my god none of that means jack ****ing shit. So the guard is better than a common soldier. Whoopdicockadoodledoo! As you yourself said, the average Jedi is incredibly fast, well, well above a common soldier.

And he didn't go 'toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists.' The text says that it was ONE of the guards attacking Meetra, not that he was on their level by himself. Meetra and Scrouge also have no great speed feats so who even cares.

This is easily the weakest argument you've delivered in a while.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It makes absolute sense for a Jedi of Revan's calibre to be extraordinarily fast.

Prove how fast he is. Otherwise you've got nothing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh my god none of that means jack ****ing shit. So the guard is better than a common soldier. Whoopdicockadoodledoo! As you yourself said, the average Jedi is incredibly fast, well, well above a common soldier.

And he didn't go 'toe-to-toe with EXPERT duelists.' The text says that it was ONE of the guards attacking Meetra, not that he was on their level by himself. Meetra and Scrouge also have no great speed feats so who even cares.

This is easily the weakest argument you've delivered in a while.

Codex entry:

The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen's mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard's activities. Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise.

Do you think that Sith Emperor was stupid to employ Imperial Guard for his safety?

Imperial Guard individuals gave tough time to both Scourge and Meetra; both of whom were (canonically) EXPERT duelists.

About Scourge:

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

About Meetra:

Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. (Scourge's assessment of her)

However, Revan was even a tier above. This guy literally made fun of the Sith forces stationed on the Star Forge. Do the math.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Prove how fast he is. Otherwise you've got nothing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Good for Eeth Koth. Does this change anything?

That Fisto's feat was not as unique and uber as you make out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Putting Obi Wan on his ass consistently is not a big deal?

No. He's shown he's good at temporarily flooring Jedi. Doesn't mean he's a real threat to any of those Jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Especially when one of the times Grievous had the opportunity of finishing Obi Wan off, but instead stands over Obi Wan taunting him, allowing Obi Wan generate a powerful force push?

You mean here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7o_Cz9rVs

Kenobi defeats Grievous in 30 seconds. Something Fisto was unable to do in a longer period.

You claim Grievous could have killed him. But I think most people know Kenobi wouldn't have just sat there and let him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He still gives Obi Wan a struggle - a struggle he didn't give Fisto.

The only time I can think that Kenobi faced Grievous one on one in an open space like Fisto did was in ROTS. Yes remember the great struggle he gave Kenobi in ROTS??

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You mean the time she was ragdolled and forced to flee? .

Lol. Loads of Jedi have been thrown or pushed back by Grievous. As for the fleeing, lets just forget her priority was to save the younglings.

Nice but failed attempt at lowballing. She was pretty damn close to stalemating him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, she's pretty good. How does any of this change the fact that Obi Wan consistently struggles against Grievous?

Because obviously if Ashoka can hold her own against Grievous, we all know he's no threat to Kenobi in a fair fight and in an open space.

The constant struggle is in your head. The only reason Grievous is alive in the CW is because he's always been smart enough to run from Kenobi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And who do you consider to be elites?

Saber fighting elites?

Kenobi and Skywalker are in there. Fisto and Tiin are not.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That speed feat of Grievous once again proves nothing. Do you know that all trained Jedi are supposed to be exceptionally fast?

In combat situation, the whole game revolves around two fundamental aspects:

1. Precognition
2. Reaction

Yes people here constantly make the mistake of assuming Sidious moves mutiple times faster than Grievous because he blitzed Fisto, forgetting Grievous doesn't have Jedi Precognition or the Force to aid his movements.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No. One blur is faster (lol). Are you even considering who they were being seen as a blur to?

Do you see why no one takes you seriously? When Obi Wan can move faster than a force user can react to, then maybe you can compare them.

You do realize Vader has also blitzed Jedi in the comic Purge right?? He just killed a Jedi in one strike. This was only a short time after ROTS so this Vader was in no way a match for the Pre-Suit Vader who Kenobi defeated. H

This Sidious blitzed Jedi argument gets way out of hand. Fact is the majority of Jedi could get Blitzed by any of the Saber Elitists.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The guy might be the single lol'est poster in the history KMC and not because he's witty.

Were you doubting your adequacy?

Easily tooling Grievous is no small feat considering how much Kenobi consistently struggles against him.

Dooku in CW against Anakin used both saber and TK combined and still got put on his ass in a matter of seconds, in RotS he didn't last against angered Anakin much longer either. In comparison Kenobi with Anakin had one of the longest fights in the EU.

Fisto got outskilled by Ventress. In comparison even combined effort of Maul and Opress wasn't enough to penetrate Kenobi's defense despite Opress alone disarming Ventres and Dooku and Maul casually stomping Opress.

Judging by defense Fisto is far below Kenobi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Were you doubting your adequacy?

Is it sacrilege to say that I'm not a fan of Futurama?

Not at all. That show has literally made me laugh on only a singular occasion.

I am not either. I just like Zoidberg.

Originally posted by Arhael
You fail to consider that Kenobi's style is defensive. He will always fight the same opponents much longer than others because his style has almost no offensive power.

Not if his opponent's speed is so far beyond his that his style becomes irrelevant. How can Kenobi defend against strikes that are just too fast for him?

Unless Kenobi's style magically increases his speed (it doesn't), he's not lasting long against Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fisto got outskilled by Ventress.

Ventress managed to penetrate Fisto's defenses with a kick. She did the same to Obi Wan in their most recent duel against eachother, while he had the help of Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael
In comparison even combined effort of Maul and Opress wasn't enough to penetrate Kenobi's defense despite Opress alone disarming Ventres and Dooku and Maul casually stomping Opress.

Obi Wan was more skilled than them at the time. Maul was still walking around in his robotic chicken legs that he likely wasn't fully adjusted to yet, and there's also no reason to assume that his skills were back on point. Savage's only advantage over Obi Wan was his strength, which Obi Wan was a lot more prepared for this time. The area they were fighting in also seemed to give Obi Wan a greater advantage. After all, Kenobi was unable to defeat Maul 1-on-1 when fighting in an open area.

Regardless, Obi Wan's performance against Maul and Savage does not mean we ignore his consistent showings. If anything that fight was just a very bad showing for Maul and Opress considering CW Maul's previous fights with Kenobi.

Originally posted by Arhael
Judging by defense Fisto is far below Kenobi.

Kenobi's style of dueling is a better form for defense. I've admitted this several times. But this does not make him a better duelist than Fisto, it just makes his style more suited for defense. That's all. Fisto is a more aggressive fighter than Kenobi, and his style does not focus on defense as much as Kenobi's, but this doesn't mean that Kenobi's defensive speed is far beyond Fisto's. After all, Grievous' speed was still sufficient to overload Kenobi's defense. If Kenobi was such a superior duelist than Fisto, then he shouldn't consistently struggle against an opponent whom Fisto has tooled quite casually.

What gets irritating to me is people thinking that Obi Wan is some unbeatable defense god whose defenses are impenetrable. It's just flat out silly. His defenses can be penetrated just like anyone elses, and they have been penetrated multiple times. Ventress has managed to kick him unconscious in the middle of a duel while he was fighting alongside Anakin. Where were his impenetrable defenses then? Grievous has consistently floored Kenobi in the middle of duels. Where were his impenetrable defenses then?

Arhael, the quality of your posts are a lot better than DP's and LeGenD's, and you do seem very knowledgeable on SW, but I think your main problem is that you believe main characters are suppose to be more powerful characters (I believe you made a statement like that before), which isn't so. If I'm wrong then correct me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Is it sacrilege to say that I'm not a fan of Futurama?