Dooku vs. Zannah

Nihilus is supposed to be ungodly powerful in Kotor II. Thats his entire role in the story and the game reinforces this adequately. Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

As for Bane, do you expect me not to argue my point in an argument? Even when I am not arguing explicitly for Bane I can't exactly say that I believe someone to be faster without it getting thrown in my face at some point, as you are eager to do with me. Fortunately, I do honestly believe that Bane is one of the fastest characters in Star Wars and the text supports me on that. However, it is my belief that even if he is faster than other characters like Sidious, Yoda or Plagueis, or they are faster than him, then such a difference is negligible at best and wouldn't factor into the fight. I will debate that others are faster than him, but I will not deny that he has peers (and will debate those who argue that he is not a peer of those characters).

And its not as if you always accept that your 'boys' are outclassed. How many times have you attempted to undermine Nihilus's ability now? A half dozen maybe?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus is supposed to be ungodly powerful in Kotor II. Thats his entire role in the story and the game reinforces this adequately. Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

So then you'd be cool with Vader doing the same thing?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As for Bane, do you expect me not to argue my point in an argument? Even when I am not arguing explicitly for Bane I can't exactly say that I believe someone to be faster without it getting thrown in my face at some point, as you are eager to do with me. Fortunately, I do honestly believe that Bane is one of the fastest characters in Star Wars and the text supports me on that.

I expect you to argue your point if that's where the facts lead you. I don't expect you to get so whiny when other people do the same thing and you openly seethe at their conclusions. Your attitude with Silver is a prime example of that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And its not as if you always accept that your 'boys' are outclassed. How many times have you attempted to undermine Nihilus's ability now? A half dozen maybe?

My boy is the principal villain of this entire universe, whose job quite frankly is to be better than everyone else (per Rick McCallum). But that's not my point either. You can make the argument all you want, but I don't discriminate in what I find stupid: the idea that Sidious can, with mere thought and inclination, destroy a planet is moronic as is essentially the entirety of Dark Empire. I don't make an exception for that just because he's one of my favorites and (narratively) supposed to be better than every Sith who's come before him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So then you'd be cool with Vader doing the same thing?

Well no, because Vader has never been hinted to be capable of planetary destruction.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I expect you to argue your point if that's where the facts lead you. I don't expect you to get so whiny when other people do the same thing and you openly seethe at their conclusions. Your attitude with Silver is a prime example of that.

I dislike Silver because of his attitude and that he was exceptionally rude and dismissive of me. I'm also jealous of your admiration of him and of your disturbingly submissive interactions with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My boy is the principal villain of this entire universe, whose job quite frankly is to be better than everyone else (per Rick McCallum). But that's not my point either. You can make the argument all you want, but I don't discriminate in what I find stupid: the idea that Sidious can, with mere thought and inclination, destroy a planet is moronic as is essentially the entirety of Dark Empire. I don't make an exception for that just because he's one of my favorites and (narratively) supposed to be better than every Sith who's come before him.

Just because you're the main villian doesn't mean you have to outclass everyone at everything. And Sidious can't destroy a planet. Like Nihilus, he can obliterate the surface, but its not like he's just pointing and watching it blow up. It is logically conceivable and believable that he can do this.

But you do make exceptions for the feats of characters I champion. You constantly tried to poke holes in Nihilus, Traya, Vitiate and Bane. Hell, a few weeks ago you were poking holes in Bane's temple feat. I don't see you giving Sidious' feats the same treatment. So get off your ****ing high horse and stop thinking that you have the right to lecture me on how I conduct my arguments. Your farts smell just as rancid as mine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well no, because Vader has never been hinted to be capable of planetary destruction.

That's pretty weak, bro. Stupid feats are cool as long as they're created for specific characters. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
I dislike Silver because of his attitude and that he was exceptionally rude and dismissive of me. I'm also jealous of your admiration of him and of your disturbingly submissive interactions with him.

You dislike Silver because he curbstomped you utterly and I admire him for how takes these dumb feats and turns them around on the characters you love. If you weren't so whiny ("NO, only BANE CAN MAKE AN UMBRELLA OUT OF HIS LIGHTSABER!!!!111!"😉 then it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because you're the main villian doesn't mean you have to outclass everyone at everything. And Sidious can't destroy a planet. Like Nihilus, he can obliterate the surface, but its not like he's just pointing and watching it blow up. It is logically conceivable and believable that he can do this.

It's retarded as hell and conflicts horribly with higher canon, regardless of who wields it.

Sidious, as the main villain and culmination of the Rule of Two, is supposed to be the best Sith (per Bane's own intention).

Originally posted by Nephthys
But you do make exceptions for the feats of characters I champion. You constantly tried to poke holes in Nihilus, Traya, Vitiate and Bane. Hell, a few weeks ago you were poking holes in Bane's temple feat. I don't see you giving Sidious' feats the same treatment. So get off your ****ing high horse and stop thinking that you have the [b]right to lecture me on how I conduct my arguments. Your farts smell just as rancid as mine. [/B]

I have zero problem with you trying to poke holes in my argument, that's what you're here to do. I have a problem when you get upset that people borrow your tactics and support a character you don't champion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

Not really. Vader isn't actually saying that someone can destroy a planet with the Force. Rather, he is saying that the force can be used for far greater things. Such as allowing one man to conquer the entire galaxy or allowing a pilot to destroy the Death Star.

👆

Nicely put Aeris.

@nephtys/Tempest: Link to Silver please??

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's pretty weak, bro. Stupid feats are cool as long as they're created for specific characters. 👆

The feat is not stupid if it is narratively believable. Nihilus consuming worlds is instantly acceptable because of Kotor II's excellent writing and presentation. In contrast, if Vader suddenly started vaping cities it would be wildly inconsistent with his other showings.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You dislike Silver because he curbstomped you utterly and I admire him for how takes these dumb feats and turns them around on the characters you love. If you weren't so whiny ("NO, only BANE CAN MAKE AN UMBRELLA OUT OF HIS LIGHTSABER!!!!111!"😉 then it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Believe what you want, my issue towards him is purely due to how contemptuous he was towards me. He didn't even respond to my Zannah post, instead just calling me an idiot and then refusing to speak to me despite me apologizing for my perceived slight.

Also, if you check my post at the top of the page, I explicitly say that I believe Bane to have many peers in terms of speed. So, er, fvck you?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's retarded as hell and conflicts horribly with higher canon, regardless of who wields it.

Sidious, as the main villain and culmination of the Rule of Two, is supposed to be the best Sith (per Bane's own intention).

Well I don't think so, which obviously is why I don't take offense to it like you do. Its pretty arrogant to think that you can admonish me for not ascribing to your personal beliefs.

Sidious is the best Sith. That does not mean that he must have the greatest combat powers in all areas or that he alone can be a galactic level threat. He is the best because he is the embodiment of Bane's order and that he accomplishes more than any other Sith in history. Not because he can gut 3 Jedi Masters before they know what the ****.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I have zero problem with you trying to poke holes in my argument, that's what you're here to do. I have a problem when you get upset that people borrow your tactics and support a character you don't champion.

Well frankly you can take your problems with me and shove them up your rectum hole. I am tired of you arrogantly attempting to 'correct my thinking' and of your constant b*tching. How ironic that you're chewing me out for being 'upset' and 'whiney' when you are the only one I've seen whine lately. And I'm sick of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The feat is not stupid if it is narratively believable. Nihilus consuming worlds is instantly acceptable because of Kotor II's excellent writing and presentation. In contrast, if Vader suddenly started vaping cities it would be wildly inconsistent with his other showings.

Except it's not narratively believable. But I get it, it's cool as long as you have a man crush on the character. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Believe what you want, my issue towards him is purely due to how contemptuous he was towards me. He didn't even respond to my Zannah post, instead just calling me an idiot and then refusing to speak to me despite me apologizing for my perceived slight.

Also, if you check my post at the top of the page, I explicitly say that I believe Bane to have many peers in terms of speed. So, er, fvck you?

He rightly condemned you for your whiny heresy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I don't think so, which obviously is why I don't take offense to it like you do. Its pretty arrogant to think that you can admonish me for not ascribing to your personal beliefs.

No, I admonish you for being so petulant when you openly accept retarded feats as long as your favorites have cornered the market on them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious is the best Sith. That does not mean that he must have the greatest combat powers in all areas or that he alone can be a galactic level threat. He is the best because he is the embodiment of Bane's order and that he accomplishes more than any other Sith in history. Not because he can gut 3 Jedi Masters before they know what the ****.

Please. Setting aside the fact that the Rule of Two is solely about inoculating superior Sith, Lucas made it pretty clear in the 2005 interview with Rolling Stone that the goal is to find a more powerful apprentice. ("That's what Siths do!"😉. By definition, Bane is inferior to Sidious.

But, of course, that's when narrative justification and thematic purpose goes out the window... because it puts my boy about a thousand years ahead of yours.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well frankly you can take your problems with me and shove them up your rectum hole.

I much prefer to shove them up yours, along with my junk. Take it like the b1tch you are. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I am tired of you arrogantly attempting to 'correct my thinking' and of your constant b*tching. How ironic that you're chewing me out for being 'upset' and 'whiney' when you are the only one I've seen whine lately. And I'm sick of it.

...This would be you whining, son.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except it's not narratively believable. But I get it, it's cool as long as you have a man crush on the character. 👆

Its pretty clear that no matter what I say you're going to accuse me of fanboyism and try to belittle me, so I'm not even going to bother responding to that anymore.

How is Nihilus' technique not narratively believable?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He rightly condemned you for your whiny heresy.

He got angry when I said that Zannah had demonstrated superior Force powers as a child than Ob-wan did as an adult. Considering Obi-Wan's greatest Force feat was his Push-off with Anakin whereas Zannah disintegrates matter and flies, I don't see that as an insane concept.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I admonish you for being so petulant when you openly accept retarded feats as long as your favorites have cornered the market on them.

It's lucky that I haven't argued in favor of any retarded feats then, isn't it? Also, 'petulant?' I said it was stupid and you agreed with me. I didn't even mention Silver at all. It's on the guy who wrote Shadows of Mindor, not him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Please. Setting aside the fact that the Rule of Two is solely about inoculating superior Sith, Lucas made it pretty clear in the 2005 interview with Rolling Stone that the goal is to find a more powerful apprentice. ("That's what Siths do!"😉. By definition, Bane is inferior to Sidious.

But, of course, that's when narrative justification and thematic purpose goes out the window... because it puts my boy about a thousand years ahead of yours.

And in this case 'superior Sith' refers to their ability at galactic manipulation and subterfuge, as is what Bane's Order focuses on, not force of arms. Even if they attempt to find a stronger apprentice, that doesn't mean that they always will (it would be illogical for that to occur after all), that the apprentice will succeed at their training and successfully kill their master, or that they will actualize their power. Zannah didn't become more powerful than Bane after all. In terms of combat skills she was weaker in all areas.

I only mentioned narrative justification to justify Nihilus' power. Not as an argument in of itself.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...This would be you whining, son.

I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. The point is that if I offend you so much, put me on ignore. I know I'm considering it.

Nephthys
Its pretty clear that no matter what I say you're going to accuse me of fanboyism and try to belittle me, so I'm not even going to bother responding to that anymore.

As long as you try to redistrict believability so that it conveniently excuses the outlandish feats of your favorite characters, then yes, we'll be at odds on that.

Nephthys
How is Nihilus' technique not narratively believable?

Because it defies higher canon, along with a host of outliers from the EU (Sidious's own retarded feats included).

Nephthys
He got angry when I said that Zannah had demonstrated superior Force powers as a child than Ob-wan did as an adult. Considering Obi-Wan's greatest Force feat was his Push-off with Anakin whereas Zannah disintegrates matter and flies, I don't see that as an insane concept.

Given that Bane, unaided, has not been shown to disintegrate matter, child!Zannah must be superior to Bane as well in the Force.

Nephthys
It's lucky that I haven't argued in favor of any retarded feats then, isn't it? Also, 'petulant?' I said it was stupid and you agreed with me. I didn't even mention Silver at all. It's on the guy who wrote Shadows of Mindor, not him.

Matthew Stover.

I agree because

Spoiler:
I find feats that contradict higher canon stupid no matter who displays them

Nephthys
And in this case 'superior Sith' refers to their ability at galactic manipulation and subterfuge, as is what Bane's Order focuses on, not force of arms.

Then I won't find a single quote from Bane from Karpyshyn's trilogy wherein Bane emphasizes Sith superiority in combat means and that the apprentice should defeat the Master in a battle to the death?

Nephthys
Even if they attempt to find a stronger apprentice, that doesn't mean that they always will (it would be illogical for that to occur after all), that the apprentice will succeed at their training and successfully kill their master, or that they will actualize their power. Zannah didn't become more powerful than Bane after all. In terms of combat skills she was weaker in all areas.

Bane selected Zannah because she had the means to surpass him, which is George's point.

Nephthys
I only mentioned narrative justification to justify Nihilus' power. Not as an argument in of itself.

Likewise, the philosophy of the Rule of Two and the Sith as articulated by George should be enough to justify Bane's inferiority to Sidious. You can't have your cake and eat it too, bro.

Nephthys
I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. The point is that if I offend you so much, put me on ignore. I know I'm considering it.

Nah, I like you. You've just been unusually prone to whining and double standards as of late. Flogging you viciously and publicly not only brings me malicious joy, but will motivate you to correct your egregious conduct out of abject fear. You will then reenter the world bereft of your double standards and fragility, stronger as a result.

Everything I do, I do it for you.

If the rule of two philosophy always applies wouldn't that mean Maul had at least the potential to be more powerful than sidious and every sith between him and bane?

Yup.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup.

With the direction they're going in with Maul, yes. Apparently the new line of thought endorsed by Lucas and espoused by Filoni and Witwer is that Maul was trained by Sidious to be his successor.

As far as Tahiri and Jacen go, they're not members of Bane's Sith order so I can't say.

lol, something i;ve notice about Tempest: he can be very stubborn sometimes, and will take on new opinion just so he doesnt have to admit that his argument was wrong in the first place.

The exact same thing happened when I pointed out tht the prsence of LostTribe of the Sith means that the darkside during palpatine's era was render veyr weak. Insteadn of admitting that what he was saying beofr was wrong, it became a contest of whos era had the most siths and was therefoire the weakest.

Anyway I have no problem with Maul having higher midi count than Sidious, just look at how powerful he was at not even 19 years of age.

I would suggest that maybe Luke wasn't going all-out but he was in a legitimately murderous mood.

Luke tried to cut off his own nephew's head at first possible opportunity for torturing his son. Why on earth he would hold back on a non-relative that killed his wife and who he wholeheartedly intended to kill? How does it make sence at all???

The only possibility is that the lightwhip makes it harder to blitz because of the length and unpredictable nature of the attack pattern. He didn't have the shoto as well.

However, after looking at the fight, Lumiya does actually block his attacks with her lightwhip handle. Multiple times, its implied.

This "hold back" thing gets old, if Luke holds back, it doesn't mean that he holds back on speed.

This:
"That's enough." Luke advanced, activating his own lightsaber. Valin raised his in a preliminary block. Luke struck, twitching his blade out of the most obvious line of attack, and the blade sheared the hilt of Valin's weapon in two, not harming him.

Valin's blade switched off as the weapon's lower half dropped into the darkened urban chasm below. Valin took a step back, the last step he could afford before dropping off the front of the speeder, but Luke's advance was near instantaneous. The Grand Master slammed the butt of his own weapon into Valin's temple.

Luke held back on Valin, yet, took full advantage of his superior speed to incapacitate him without any harm.
Luke had his shoto in first fight with Lumiya, yet, couldn't do a thing to her because he didn't have significant speed advantage.

Moreover, Lumiya is not the only example, where Luke's speed can be compared. We have fight with Nyax.

Let me remind of his feats.

1. His strength was so enormous that single strike could knock Yuuzhan Vong over and drive Luke back.

2. His speed was such that he dodged Voxin and cut him in two with single slash. In comparison for Anakin's strike team killing Voxin was a "routine work" and they acted in combined effort.

3. Apart from super strength and super speed he, also, was equiped with 8 lightsabers.

Yet, Mara and Tahiri performed as good as Luke against him. The only thing that makes Luke stand out is that he managed to kick Nyax ones throughout entire fight.

I am willing to concede that Bane might be as fast as Sidious or Luke, despite the fact that he is less powerful. After all it's normal for less powerful characters to match speed of superior ones:
Dooku/Yoda, Dooku/Anakin, Sidious/Windu, Mara/Jacen and the most obvious ones Luke/Abeloth and Kenobi/Anakin.

But it is unreasonable to assume that Bane's speed is superior to everyone because of a non-combat feat that comes from an author in who's book average lightning turns into ash instantly.

I appreciate your general point, but it really doesn't negate the recurring inconsistency: sometimes Force users are matched by weaker or non-Force users; other times, they're blitzed by much more powerful Force users. If your quest is to make complete sense of it, you'll be at this for a while.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wow, really? Holding back in murderous mood?

Luke tried to cut off his own nephew's head at first possible opportunity for torturing his son. Why on earth he would hold back on a non-relative that killed his wife and who he wholeheartedly intended to kill? How does it make sence at all???

Er, no. I said that I would say that Luke was holding back as he usually is, however he was gunning for blood in that fight, so I will not say that.

Originally posted by Arhael
So blocking with hilt means she wasn't fast enough?

😬

No, blocking with the hilt means that she was fast enough. Learn to read, noobzilla.