DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate

As far as their validity, well, all of the sources in question are in-universe: Nyriss, the Old Republic Encyclopedia, and the codex. They're all equally fallible and we should be skeptical of all of them, which is why discerning information about the ritual is so damn hard.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You can take all the jabs you want. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter me in the slightest.

I... didn't say that it would bother you. I asked you why you were being so hostile, especially to poor Arhael, you deflected by comparing your behavior with my conduct's to Nephthys and I just explained to you that if my opponent is aggressive or hostile, I'll throw jabs back.

Just wondering why, when everyone's being pretty polite with you, you get angry when they disagree with you.

Originally posted by jadams3928
The argument was regarding Revan's technique. The fact that you needed to mention the specific technique to try to shift the burden of proof, when it's already been proven that Revan created a technique to fight the Emperor, is telling enough. If you weren't reaching, you wouldn't have said what you said. Had you said, "there is no evidence that one has to have a technique to fight Vitiate's mind domination", you would be wrong. So I applaud your semantics.

Bro, why are you trying to read into my posts rather than what they actually say? You don't see me snidely pointing out that the source you provided me about the Ritual of Nathema only helped my argument and, when you realized it, you edited your post to try to cover it up.

Let's just stick to the argument and disregard the rest, ok?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Luke isn't an authority on force nexus. Wikipedia has plenty of sources that determine what a source nexus is.

Well Luke's not infallible, if that's what you mean, but... an actual source (Outcast) vs. a Wookieepedia article? Come on.

Originally posted by jadams3928
So what? Ossus bristled with the light side.

According to what source?

Originally posted by jadams3928
That doesn't make it a nexus.

Well, according to Luke it does. He describes the cave on Dagobah as a dark side nexus in Outcast; Yoda described it in The Empire Strikes Back as being strong in the dark side.

Seems to be fairly synonymous, don't you think?

Originally posted by jadams3928
All of the SWTOR sources support the Revan novel and Nyriss' account, which was written first, except for the ritual. The SWTOR sources contradict themselves regarding the ritual. When the game first created and we found out about the sith emperor, the source stated that Vitiate blamed the destruction of Nathema on the jedi.

Well, the ritual is what we're talking about, right? Of the three sources, only one (the first written, as you say) indicates that any of Vitiate's Sith Lord guests were dominated by him via the Force.

The other two are also fallible, also in-universe, definitely. But that's my point: if all the fallible sources can't come to a consensus, which do we go with?

Bro, why are you trying to read into my posts rather than what they actually say? You don't see me snidely pointing out that the source you provided me about the Ritual of Nathema only helped my argument and, when you realized it, you edited your post to try to cover it up.

Well Luke's not infallible, if that's what you mean, but... an actual source (Outcast) vs. a Wookieepedia article? Come on.

Seems to be fairly synonymous, don't you think? [/B]

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, the ritual is what we're talking about, right? Of the three sources, only one (the first written, as you say) indicates that any of Vitiate's Sith Lord guests were dominated by him via the Force.

The other two are also fallible, also in-universe, definitely. But that's my point: if all the fallible sources can't come to a consensus, which do we go with?

You've still yet to come up with the second source. I'll dig up Master Gnost Dural's journal and the Encyclopedia tomorrow because I'm 100% positive they support the Revan novel

I've told you multiple times: the two conflicting sources are The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which says that the Sith Lords agreed to partake in the ritual after arriving on Nathema, and the codex, which says it was celebrated by Imperial scholars as an effort of cooperation.

jadams3928
That is not a source, that is what Luke considers a force nexus.

Ok, well since we're apparently not going to come to a consensus on this issue (which is tangential), I'll amend my statement and say that Vitiate conducted the technique at a place that bristles with dark side energy. Is that better?

Ok, well since we're apparently not going to come to a consensus on this issue (which is tangential), I'll amend my statement and say that Vitiate conducted the technique at a place that bristles with dark side energy. Is that better? [/B]

The fact that Nathema became "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" AFTER Vitiate performed the ritual, suggests that my definition of Nexus (the right definition), makes more sense than yours.

You actually haven't provided a definition, you just told me not to use Luke's.

Also, what does the magnitude of Nathema's nexus have to do with anything?

I don't have my copy of the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia on hand, but this is its definition of a dark side nexus according to Gideon's essay:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia defines a dark side nexus as “any unusual localization, or vergence, of dark side Force energy. These strange locales emanated the dark side of the Force, and were considered focal points of power for dark side users.” It goes onto say that:
“Known dark side nexuses included […] and a ‘stain’ of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor.”

Except that he has, so quit crying. Maybe you should amend your idiot statement to say "there is no evidence Vitiate could dominate anyone that he hasn't dominated already." That idiocy would make more sense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Really?

Also, Emperor says: "You dissipated your energy saving the weak, there are consequences", so JK can be considered weakened as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
This thread is about combat, not ritual over unconscious Jedi. The only example is Revan and Malak who never fought a single Sith but Forceless Mandalorians before confronting Vitiate. As they turned to darkside and gained greater power, they both got freed from mind domination and started their own agenda without any encouragement like in case with JK and strike team. Give a single example of Vitiate mind dominating a conscious opponent of at least Tol Braga's caliber, then we talk. That shouldn't be hard, even unknown kid in Jedi Errand could demonstrate mind domination.

Player can choose to save his girlfriend instead of heading for Emperor straight away. As result later Scourge chides JK: "You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive."

Also, Emperor says: "You dissipated your energy saving the weak, there are consequences", so JK can be considered weakened as well. [/B]

Tol Braga, all the jedi with Tol Braga at the time. But please, it's amusing to see you downplay characters based on stupidity.

Yes, I know this. But he was still considered "severely weakened". Please let the adults talk now.

What have you been on Arhael? All your arguments are coherent and logical here lately. Watched Limitless, eh?

Man, I'd love that pill. Granted, there's probably not much by way of improvement for someone of my superior intellect... but still. 😐

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Man, I'd love that pill. Granted, there's probably not much by way of improvement for someone of my superior intellect... but still. 😐

You have achieved success, my friend, but have you achieved Level 7 of the Kobe System? Your welcome.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I... didn't say that it would bother you. I asked you why you were being so hostile, especially to poor Arhael, you deflected by comparing your behavior with my conduct's to Nephthys and I just explained to you that if my opponent is aggressive or hostile, I'll throw jabs back.

When was I aggressive or hostile towards you? I think you'll find that I've been nothing but polite with you while your last 2 responses to me have been excessively derogatory and mocking. I know that you are probably just joking but I'm not going to let you pass it off as if I've been attacking you.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's very true.

Also, check the counter-arguments of member (Jadams3928) with this guy (The_Tempest). No amount of logical reasoning will work with the latter member.

This:

Originally posted by jadams3928
Sorry Tempest, but the only argument that was destroyed was yours. It was entertaining at the beginning but after pages of excuses, nonsense, and bias, quit while you're behind.

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Originally posted by Arhael
I pointed out about it long ago. All we have is vague statements from Revan and Nyriss and never see Vitiate demonstrating mind domination in action.

- Didn't Vitiate break many Sith Lords?
- Didn't Vitiate break Revan and Malak simultaneously?
- Didn't Vitiate break Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga (Hero of Tython included)?

You probably do not understand the conceptualization behind Vitiate's mental/telepathic abilities. He was natural with these abilities, as apparent from this feat:

"Lord Dramath intended to judge the child's power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind. Lord Dramath spent his last moments weeping in terror, gazing up into the black eyes of his son."

Vitiate used his mental/tekepathic abilities to [Color=Blue]prevent prolonged confrontations[/Blue] in the first place. Get it?

Of-course, Vitiate wasn't weak without these abilities either. But still......

Originally posted by Arhael
Instead he handles strike team with lightning and later in fight with JK he uses old fashioned Dun Moch instead. Moreover, there was no survivors on Nathema, thus no witnesses, so Nyriss' story is likely just a fear device that Vitiate rumored himself.

Here;

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually, when did Din's spirit showed-up, we got a glimpse of Vitiate's dark powers that broke the Jedi Strike Team. (Image of those purplish energies)

This evidence indicates that Vitiate used FLS and his telepathic abilities simultaneously. So even if we are to assume that Vitiate faces fully prepared adversaries; they can still fall in to his trap.

And as member (Nephthys) pointed out before;

Originally posted by Nephthys
It tells us nothing but what we chose to take from it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious in comparison demonstrated mind domination on Marek and DE Luke, yet, people don't assume that he just gonna mind dominate everyone.

1. Sidious's understanding of mind-tricks increased with passage of time; he likely took interest in improving his mental/telepathic abilities.

2. Marek's weakness against telepathic threats; Marek would be (logically) stronger-minded then many but would still not be on par with those Force-wielders who specially focused on improving their ability to counter telepathic threats.

As far as Luke is concerned; Sidious broke him after defeating him in combat. Luke lost hope at that moment. Once Leia restored that hope, Luke was back on his feat.

Originally posted by -kV-
It seems a lot of the arguments revolve around a Jedi's ability to resist mental domination. It seems everyone has acknowledged, to some degree, that Vitiate's mental domination can be beaten.

Originally posted by -kV-
IMHO, I seem to be agree with Tempest - 99.99% of Jedi would probably be overwhelmed by such domination, but if the very best Jedi (Luke, Yoda, Mace, Marek, Revan, etc.) enter the fray without underestimating their opponent, they all have the ability to resist mental rapeage.

I really dislike the mentality that names like Luke, Yoda and Mace are automatically associated with invincibility.

As an example:

It took 3 famous PT era Jedi; Mace; Obi-Wan; and Anakin; to mentally influence just one strong-minded individual Cade Bane to open up to them during an interrogation.

In comparison, you know what Vitiate can do single-handedly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feat-to-feat, Luke absolutely demolishes Vitiate once the mind tricks are all nullified. Then he goes on to waste Sidious after a better fight.

And how Luke will overcome Vitiate's mighty FLS and Telekinetic abilities?

Also, Vitiate can create his duplicate clones to confuse or preoccupy Luke with them; and take advantage during this time.

In addition, two super-strong Sith Lords will just stand there and let Luke win? 🙄

Enough with this Luke pwns all BS already. We all know that he has mastered the Force but this doesn't makes him untouchable or invincible. He continues to survive against all odds due to PIS in the lore.

Originally posted by Arhael
As for Vitiate he simply never learned to use it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pardon, was this the same lightning that a minor prodigy circumvented casually via lightsaber? Or the lightning that required time to channel and unleash?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or the TK that he has to charge in order to put Revan on his ass... who promptly got back on his feet, unharmed?

Also, stop underestimating Revan.

Originally posted by Based
I'm not seeing why his arguments are shut down. If vitiate can't dominate Sidious which come on isn't happening, what does he have? He has no combat prowess.

And if he does his feats are nothing compared to Sids.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, no, it's a fair question on an issue of combat prowess.

You clearly put no stock in Sidious's accomplishment with a team of celebrated swordmasters but take umbrage when I do not share your perspective on Vitiate's feats.

Because it's coming across like you're grumpy that people are questioning Vitiate while you question others.

Here is one example:

Jedi Master Usma was one of the Order's most celebrated duelists in its history; she was cut down by a Sith apprentice Praven during the Sacking of Coruscant inside the Jedi Temple.

Funny thing is that Malgus regarded Jedi Master Ven Zallow as the only worthy opponent for him among all the Jedi during this raid.

----------------

@Everybody

Note the aforementioned point of mine. Next time someone brings up the 'celebrated swordmaster' argument; whip it up with this example.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Revan's technique is necessary to resist when all it did was put Vitiate on his ass.

Like it is so easy. 🙄

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan was the only one who didn't underestimate him. I see no reason why we should assume Yoda would underestimate him.

Also, Revan didn't underestimate Vitiate in the manner as you put. Neither did Malak.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of Dromund Kaas is strong with the dark side, per Revan. I gave the quote earlier in this thread in a response to Nephthys.

- Dooku couldn't overwhelm Yoda on Vjun.
- Malak couldn't overwhelm Revan on Star Forge.

Get the hint?

Legend, he isn't going to respond mate.