Originally posted by Arhael
Tol Braga was defeated by Force lightning as well as all Jedi with him during combat. From that point combat was over. From that point his mental guard was down. From that point it is irrelevant what happened to him as it is not part of combat. My point stays Vitiate never mind dominated a single conscious opponent of Tol Braga's caliber during combat.
Maybe as adult you start bringing actual proofs instead of what you consider? [/B]
Difference between canon and your choice is the Emperor was severely weakened regardless of if you save Kira Carsen. He regained some of his strength if you do but he was not at full strength. Move on🙂
Originally posted by jadams3928
8,000 sith lords. Nobody broke his domination other than Revan and that was with a technique. You lose, move on.
Two of the three relevant sources conflict with the 8k Sith Lord feat, which in and of itself has more holes in it than swiss cheese.
In fact, you said you'd be providing evidence of that today?
Originally posted by jadams3928
Pot.Kettle.BlackDifference between canon and your choice is the Emperor was severely weakened regardless of if you save Kira Carsen. He regained some of his strength if you do but he was not at full strength. Move on🙂
Where in the game does it explain how much strength he regained if the player elects to save Carsen? Arhael says he's back to full power, you say some. Where does it say either way?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Two of the three relevant sources conflict with the 8k Sith Lord feat, which in and of itself has more holes in it than swiss cheese.In fact, you said you'd be providing evidence of that today?
Where in the game does it explain how much strength he regained if the player elects to save Carsen? Arhael says he's back to full power, you say some. Where does it say either way? [/B]
Originally posted by Nephthys
When was I aggressive or hostile towards you? I think you'll find that I've been nothing but polite with you while your last 2 responses to me have been excessively derogatory and mocking. I know that you are probably just joking but I'm not going to let you pass it off as if I've been attacking you.
I haven't found that, actually, bro. Your last meaningful contribution ended with outrage that I didn't accept the interpreted magnitude of Vitiate's telepathic powers. The next two posts after that consisted of you randomly accusing me of being angry and then some moar outrage: "you're biased, how dare you question Vitiate, etc."
As for me joking, well of course I am. How likely is it that I'd be pissed and then reference righteous urine and whatnot? But I'm typically not one to let barbs fly unanswered. I let my enemy strike first and then I hit back, invariably harder and wittier, so as to illustrate my superiority and the futility of their efforts, as if to say "lol stfu and stick to the argument."
You should know better after our many years of sexual interactions that I don't take this stuff personally nor do I mean it to be taken personally. But I reserve the right to answer aggression with aggression.
If you weren't being aggressive, my apologies. Regardless, you should check the outrage at the door. The discussion will be much more fun for all of us if you do.
Originally posted by jadams3928
What two sources? You only showed one. And I won't have access to the sources until the afternoon.
...No, I showed you two.
Me, on the previous page
I've told you multiple times: the two conflicting sources are The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which says that the Sith Lords agreed to partake in the ritual after arriving on Nathema, and the codex, which says it was celebrated by Imperial scholars as an effort of cooperation.
Originally posted by jadams3928
The "severely weakened" emperor gained some of his strength back.
That's... not proof.
Originally posted by jadams3928
No, you did not.
Did you not read what I quoted? I just told you what they are and what they say:
1. The codex, which says Imperial scholars celebrate it as a sign of cooperation
2. TOR Encyclopedia, which says the Sith Lords agreed to partake in the ritual AFTER they arrived on Medriaas.
Originally posted by jadams3928
I can't very well take a screenshot of the SWTOR game itself right now.
I'm sure you can find it on Youtube.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Also, strange you're not asking Arhael for proof🙂
Me, on this very page
Where in the game does it explain how much strength he regained if the player elects to save Carsen? Arhael says he's back to full power, you say some. Where does it say either way?
Strange that you're apparently not reading my posts.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]Did you not read what I quoted? I just told you what they are and what they say:1. The codex, which says Imperial scholars celebrate it as a sign of cooperation
2. TOR Encyclopedia, which says the Sith Lords agreed to partake in the ritual AFTER they arrived on Medriaas.
And there's nothing on youtube other than you fighting the Emperor's Voice.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Didn't you say you don't have the TOR Encyclopedia? What is the exact quote.
I don't.
"He bid every surviving Sith to unite or die at the hands of the Jedi. Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to parake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon. The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Medriaas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When that ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor."
Originally posted by jadams3928
And there's nothing on youtube other than you fighting the Emperor's Voice.
I'm pretty sure they have extensive walkthroughs for all the classes, not just specific fights. I've looked through them myself a few times.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I haven't found that, actually, bro. Your last meaningful contribution ended with outrage that I didn't accept the interpreted magnitude of Vitiate's telepathic powers. The next two posts after that consisted of you randomly accusing me of being angry and then some moar outrage: "you're biased, how dare you question Vitiate, etc."
As I thought, you're merely being extremely sensitive atm. 'Outrage' is not the right word. I kept my tone civil with only describing the argument as ridiculous indicating any negativity on my part. Hardly a raging stream of filth directed at you there. My accusation was not random at all, and was merely prompted by your own overly aggressive response. No joke bro, I was a bit taken aback at how rude you were being, even if it was in jest. And I said you seemed a little biased, based off of your dismissal of Vitiate as an 'above average force user', I hardly told you to **** off or anything. Nothing I've said has been aggressive in the slightest. Why would it be, I enjoy talking to you.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As for me joking, well of course I am. How likely is it that I'd be pissed and then reference righteous urine and whatnot? But I'm typically not one to let barbs fly unanswered. I let my enemy strike first and then I hit back, invariably harder and wittier, so as to illustrate my superiority and the futility of their efforts, as if to say "lol stfu and stick to the argument."You should know better after our many years of sexual interactions that I don't take this stuff personally nor do I mean it to be taken personally. But I reserve the right to answer aggression with aggression.
Which is fine, but there was no aggression on my part. At all. I too would prefer to stick to the actual argument instead of petty insults, which is why your previous posts haven't really given me much interest in responding to yet. I'm not going to bother with someone acting like a prick to me for no reason. Understand?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
If you weren't being aggressive, my apologies. Regardless, you should check the outrage at the door. The discussion will be much more fun for all of us if you do.
There is no outrage. Either way, apology accepted. If you still want me to I'll respond to your actual rebuttal tomorrow.
Originally posted by Ascendancy What have you been on Arhael? All your arguments are coherent and logical here lately. Watched Limitless, eh?
Originally posted by Nephthys No, the lightning that disintegrated metal.
Originally posted by jadams3928
The fact that Nathema became "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" AFTER Vitiate performed the ritual, suggests that my definition of Nexus (the right definition), makes more sense than yours.
Scourge:
"The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force—nothing remained.
...
By the time they reached the shuttle, Scourge’s stomach was churning. He had lived his whole life attuned to the Force; having it stripped away had left him physically ill".
Revan:
"But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force".
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Didn't Vitiate break many Sith Lords?
- Didn't Vitiate break Revan and Malak simultaneously?
- Didn't Vitiate break Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga (Hero of Tython included)?
-Revan's best feat at that point was defeating Mandalor in "fair" fight. They never fought a single Sith, obviously Vitiate would be too much for amateurs like them.
-He handled strike team with lightning.
We have been through this before.....
Actually, when did Din's spirit showed-up, we got a glimpse of Vitiate's dark powers that broke the Jedi Strike Team. (Image of those purplish energies)This evidence indicates that Vitiate used FLS and his telepathic abilities simultaneously. So even if we are to assume that Vitiate faces fully prepared adversaries; they can still fall in to his trap.
Marek's weakness against telepathic threats; Marek would be (logically) stronger-minded then many but would still not be on par with those Force-wielders who specially focused on improving their ability to counter telepathic threats.
As far as Luke is concerned; Sidious broke him after defeating him in combat. Luke lost hope at that moment. Once Leia restored that hope, Luke was back on his feat.
And how Luke will overcome Vitiate's mighty FLS and Telekinetic abilities?
Also, Vitiate can create his duplicate clones to confuse or preoccupy Luke with them; and take advantage during this time.
8,000 sith lords.
Arhael says he's back to full power
Fail. Read Revan book at least. Nathema after ritual became void in the Force. No nexuses, no Force, no life.
As an "adult" you should check the actual sources.Scourge:
"The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force—nothing remained.
...
By the time they reached the shuttle, Scourge’s stomach was churning. He had lived his whole life attuned to the Force; having it stripped away had left him physically ill".Revan:
"But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force".
8,000 sith lords.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I thought, you're merely being extremely sensitive atm.
Nonsense. 3 or 4 pages ago, jadams3928 leveled at me the same accusation and I simply, politely told him to stick to the argument because I'm disinterested in spiraling off into incessant trolling.
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Outrage' is not the right word. I kept my tone civil with only describing the argument as ridiculous indicating any negativity on my part. Hardly a raging stream of filth directed at you there. My accusation was not random at all, and was merely prompted by your own overly aggressive response. No joke bro, I was a bit taken aback at how rude you were being, even if it was in jest. And I said you seemed a little biased, based off of your dismissal of Vitiate as an 'above average force user', I hardly told you to **** off or anything. Nothing I've said has been aggressive in the slightest.
Outrage was certainly an appropriate word. If it had been the product of calm, cool judgment, you would have been better able to adequately defend your position. Instead, you scolded me for not subscribing to a position that you have, quite frankly, failed utterly to defend. You would have been able to list these powers and abilities I apparently overlooked. Instead, when I asked you to do so, you dissembled and told me you'd have to do some research on it.
In other words, you were mad at me for not sharing your opinion on information you apparently weren't aware of yourself.
What else can that silliness be other than the result of judgment clouded by frustration? It makes sense, too, since you've been a proponent of Vitiate's supremacy for a not inconsiderable amount of time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would it be, I enjoy talking to you.
Understandable. You enjoy the sight of a first-rate intellect at work. It titillates you, arouses you sexually. I often imagine myself assuming the role of an anonymous plebe who stumbles across the brilliance of someone such as myself and my pants tighten with wanton desire.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is fine, but there was no aggression on my part. At all. I too would prefer to stick to the actual argument instead of petty insults, which is why your previous posts haven't really given me much interest in responding to yet. I'm not going to bother with someone acting like a prick to me for no reason. Understand?
Then you should probably check those petty insults at the door with your outrage and then we can get back to the discussion at hand.
If you disagree with my estimation of Vitiate as an "above average" Force user, then feel free to refute it. Otherwise, there's really no point in commenting at all.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no outrage. Either way, apology accepted. If you still want me to I'll respond to your actual rebuttal tomorrow.
Bro, the choice is yours. Either way, your defeat is assured. One way or another, you will lay broken at my feet. It is only a matter of time.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nonsense. 3 or 4 pages ago, jadams3928 leveled at me the same accusation and I simply, politely told him to stick to the argument because I'm disinterested in spiraling off into incessant trolling.
Then don't do it?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Outrage was certainly an appropriate word. If it had been the product of calm, cool judgment, you would have been better able to adequately defend your position. Instead, you scolded me for not subscribing to a position that you have, quite frankly, failed utterly to defend. You would have been able to list these powers and abilities I apparently overlooked. Instead, when I asked you to do so, you dissembled and told me you'd have to do some research on it.
Maybe you should take your own advice and actually read peoples posts next time. Then you would know that I wasn't able to adequately defend my position because 'I have to leave for work.' I wrote that post in seconds before running out the door. In case you hadn't noticed, its ****ing Christmas, the busiest time of the year. I've been working my ass off this week, not stewing in a rage because you've frustrated my arguments or whatever paranoia you're entertaining. Thats why I haven't been arguing with you, because I'm working all night and asleep most of the day.
Thats also why I didn't have the time to do anything but skim your argument btw.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
In other words, you were mad at me for not sharing your opinion on information you apparently weren't aware of yourself.
Not mad, just disappointed. Thank you for telling me my own emotional state though. You sure are the best guy to decide what that was.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
What else can that silliness be other than the result of judgment clouded by frustration? It makes sense, too, since you've been a proponent of Vitiate's supremacy for a not inconsiderable amount of time.
Nah.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Understandable. You enjoy the sight of a first-rate intellect at work. It titillates you, arouses you sexually. I often imagine myself assuming the role of an anonymous plebe who stumbles across the brilliance of someone such as myself and my pants tighten with wanton desire.
No its because we're bros and bros are cool with bros.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Then you should probably check those petty insults at the door with your outrage and then we can get back to the discussion at hand.If you disagree with my estimation of Vitiate as an "above average" Force user, then feel free to refute it. Otherwise, there's really no point in commenting at all.
Its not an insult to say that you're acting like a prick, merely an observation. Given that you've already apologised, it would seem you don't quite disagree with that assessment either.
That was my intention, refuting that idea with Vitiates exceptional Force Powers.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bro, the choice is yours. Either way, your defeat is assured. One way or another, you will lay broken at my feet. It is only a matter of time.
Nah. Imma kick your ass.
Originally posted by Arhael
-Only according to Nyriss story. As I said Vitiate is the only witness. All chances are Vitiate spread that hyperbolic rumour himself. The fact that Nyriss' story is contradicted by sourcebooks makes it useless. The fact that there was no mind dominated Sith Lords in book and game doesn't help your cause either.
Also, it remains to be seen if any source contradicts Nyriss's account. I do not trust member (The_Tempest) on this aspect; he doesn't have TOR encyclopedia and his statement can be made-up; I will get this book next month and find out. The codex entry (which I have read) neither confirms and nor denies her account.
Also, Vitiate stripped Lord Dramath from his powers and mind at the age of 10. This feat alone proves my point that he was natural with these abilities.
Originally posted by Arhael
-Revan's best feat at that point was defeating Mandalor in "fair" fight. They never fought a single Sith, obviously Vitiate would be too much for amateurs like them.
Originally posted by Arhael
-He handled strike team with lightning.
You cannot say this with certainty. You didn't write the story; did you?
Originally posted by Arhael
lol. Are you serious? Mind domination doesn't have purpulish energies.
Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, Vitiate in book used mind domination, TK and lightning separately. There is no reason to assume that later he became so super cool that he could use lightning and mind domination simultaniously on 4 Jedi. In whole EU there is no example of someone using mind domination simultaniously with anything, it always takes full concentration, this assumption has no basis whatsoever.
Originally posted by Arhael
Marek that undergone harsh training of Vader, defeated several Jedi and Vader himself and despite being trained as Sith from childhood found inner strength to break free from darkside would (logically) have far stronger mentality, than Revan and Malak that undergone mild Jedi training, never fought a single Sith in their life and were smug enough to think that they can take on someone of Vitiate's caliber in the middle of darkside nexus.
Strength alone doesn't assures defence against everything/technique. Try to understand this.
Also, Revan and Malak had fought in Mandalorian Wars as commanders and also front-line warriors; they became battle-hardened heroes prior to first encounter with Vitiate. In addition, both of them had visited tainted planets like Malachor V, Korriban and Nathema during the Mandalorian Wars and knew what the taste of dark side felt like; specially, surviving in a Force-less world for a long duration is a big feat for any Force-wielder. After the war, both of them were bold enough to attempt to assassinate a Sith Emperor in the heart of his Empire.
The discovery of a hidden Sith Empire came as a surprise; Sith were thought to be extinct after the Great Sith War. Also, Vitiate is no ordinary Sith in the context of whole mythos.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's what Vitiate tried to do with JK in final fight, didn't work.
Originally posted by Arhael
With lightsaber and his own TK as he normally does, nothing extra ordinary.
Originally posted by Arhael
Stop making things up. When Vitiate used illusions in game, he wasn't moving at all. All EU sources demonstrate that complex illusions take full concentration.
Genius! You are so full of misconceptions. I destroyed your attempt to belittle Revan before. And you haven't learned anything.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
😂Of course you didn't. It's not like you didn't read it anxiously and respond to comment on perceived anger.
Oh, wait. You did.
facepalm
Try harder, bro.
Yeah, I didn't. I skimmed it, noticed the aggressive tone, commented and then went to work. Then you said you were pulling out so I didn't bother to go back and read it. Still haven't actually.
/bullshit nonsense
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or it shows that Vitiate's lightning is weak and the Hero is just a minor prodigy?
Considering that Vitiates lightning was described as 'infinitely more power' than Nyriss' which is already one of the foremost displays of lightning in the mythos, I find that rather hard to believe. The Hero was noted by Vitiate himself to wield immense power and is the prophecised Champion of Light, outperforming his or her own master (who is btw a Jedi Council Member) as soon as they arrived at the Jedi Temple as a padawan.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?
Bluh. Miss-typed that in my haste. That should be TK.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet somehow, during that same fight, the TK wasn't used with any success against a Force user and a non-Force sensitive droid?
Rather like how despite being capable of turning beings to ash with his lightning Palpatine only briefly knocked Yoda out? Or how Yoda despite being able to throw tank carriers around with the Force caused no collatoral damage in his duel with Dooku and even seemed to strain to lift a girder (or whatever it was)? Or Luke doing anything in any fight below his touted Godhood? Or Abeloth not melting a city in every fight?
It simply isn't smart to be blowing up buildings in a fight. Its a waste of energy that could be better harnessed and focused into a speartip. The truth is that TOR is a game, an MMO which means that they are limited in what they can do, so the fight occurs in gameplay, making the duel ambiguous. Maybe Vitiate created a mini-blackhole and the Knight shot lasers out of his eyes to plug it up. The fact is that T7 survived does not magically make Vitiates other feats go away. For all we know the Knight protected him from Vitiates Force Powers. Your point means nothing and does not dismiss the fact that Vitiate caused earthquakes and destroyed a huge building while dying.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Damn, forgot about that one. That'll definitely bag him a win. Luke Skywalker's only an exceptionally powerful Force user, but he's no astro-mech.
The ability to create corporeal beings out of thin air does not impress you at all? In LotF this was considered a powerful dark side technique.
Of course, I never claimed the ability would instantly grant him victory, I said that it was 'cool'. I've already described to you how this ability can be used to give him time to marshal his other devastating Force Powers. The ability to instantly create 6 or 7 clones to bog his opponent down should not be dismissed. After which is exceptional command of the core combat-related Force powers of TK and Force Lightning as well as his unparallelled ability to dominate the mind of his opponent pushes him well above above-average.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So you're mad at me for not taking his "other pretty cool" powers into account, but when asked... you haven't apparently taken them into account either?Are you sure you're not the biased one? 😂
My point is that the Emperor is a noted scholar with over a thousand years worth of study in the dark side under his belt. There are many allusions in TOR (the galactic history entry on Dromund Kaas as I recall) and Revan that the Emperor spent most of his hundreds of years worth of spare time conducting experiments and rituals and gaining a massive base of Force Knowledge. As I recall, you are the strongest proponent that "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.” Considering that Vitiate is logically the most knowledgeable Force User in the mythos given the length of his study and training, I don't see how you could dismiss him so casually.
BTW, I noticed you mentioning Vitiate killing 12 Dark Council members at once in a flash of light in your debate with me-2. What was the consensus on this feat. It seems to suggest to me that the Emperor is not weak in combat as you think.
Originally posted by Arhael
lol. Are you serious? Mind domination doesn't have purpulish energies.
:I
From Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game – Champions of the Force (Card: Cloud Minds). Its artistic license to allow the audience to see whats happening, like how TK is usually portrayed as blue energy in the media such as Force Unleashed and TOR.