Originally posted by The_Tempest
Let's not indulge in arguments by consensus; it happens too much around here as is.For my take, I'm not saying Kas'im loses, but his showings against Bane on Lehon are suspect given the world's strength with the dark side.
It really not very strong. It is not exactly nexus or anything.
Originally posted by -kV-
Are you kidding?"The Unknown World was a place strong in the Force."
"The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed."
"The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban."
He has a point.
A dark side nexus is defined as "any unusual localization of dark side energy" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Why would a planet unusually strong in the dark side qualify?
Originally posted by -kV-
That just makes Kas'im even more pitiful.According to you, Kas'im is this incredible fighter. As such, he should be someone with significant experience in dueling. He should be someone with a vast array of moves and techniques. He should be someone who isn't formulaic with his moves, but rather versatile. Naturally, he should be someone who can outsmart his opponents even if they are familiar with his techniques.
Great example of your biasness, always trying to dismiss Kas'im's feats.
Kas'im does have vast array of moves and techniques, problem is Bane had spent hours training with him and knew eveyrhting he had to offer, it easier said than done to outsmart somebody like bane, and once he knows all his moves then it no longer about tehcnique, it about power and bane is simply much mire powerful, end of story.
Except, all of that was proven wrong in his fight against Bane. If Bane can recognize all of Kas'im's moves within several weeks of sparring, then that just displays Kas'im's limited scope. Furthermore, if Kas'im was versatile, rather than formulaic, he would have performed variant combinations of his moves to break down Bane's defenses. After all, that's what you would expect from someone considered to be one of the 'greatest' swordsman.
Who says it was just weeks? They spent months training together, and the book states that he had memories millions of his moves and sequences so it not limited in scope as you say.
He knew all of Kas'im's moves under those stules bro, if it wasnt part of that repertoire than it was not proper technique, why would kas'im use improper moves?
As Tempest has said, they were both on Lehon and their Force powers were amplified.
I call bullshit.
Also, the impressiveness of the very feat seems to now be under debate. Furthermore, I've already argued how putting up a Shield outside-of-blazing-fast-combat isn't as impressive as defending TK waves during blazing-fast-combat (Kenobi's stalemate against Anakin's insane raw power).
Legend already shut this down bro. Its more impressive, seeing as Bane had time to power up his attack. Anakin had great potential but at the time he was nevery veyr powerful at all.
Secondly, if Kas'im possessed such impressive Force powers, why didn't he kill Bane when Bane landed precariously on the staircase? If Kas'im had such vaunted Force command, his TK should have been powerful enough to have slammed Bane to the ground and prevent him from even having the chance to "cocoon himself in the Force."
Because people of that era already have prelinimary defene put up before entering a duel, its something Kas'im taught them to do.
Finally, this battle will be a lightsabers-only contest, and both guys will use the Force in this manner.Except, your entire argument is that one subjective passage from Bane's POV, and Kas'im's Force Shield. That's it. Everything else is just you speculating.
It is you who is speculating.
Until you provide new evidence, you have nothing demonstrating Kas'im can contend with Kenobi.
Again your biasness is showing. Kas'im does not need to prove he is on Kenobi's level, it is the other way round bro.
The others have already argued against this.
Raptor? I shot him down immediately.
😆You realize the poll was like that before I even started seriously arguing in this thread. People have this skewed impression of Kas'im as someone who is the shit (see Raptor's earlier post). Yet, when you actually go back and check him out, you see that he absolutely nothing that can quantify him as being on the level of Obi-Wan beyond speculation and an opinion by an in-universe character.
In fact, recent responses suggest that more people seem to now be saying that Kenobi wins after all.
Compelte lies.
Lehon was strong in the Force. And the temple itself was concentrated in the Dark Side.
"Bane leapt down from his mount, all his attention focused on the structure towering before him...
He took a trembling step forward before stopping short. He shook his head to clear it. The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed. That meant this was a place of danger; he couldn't afford to be wandering around in a stupor.
According to the accounts he'd read in the archives, the Temple had once been protected by a powerful energy shield, one that required an entire Rakatan tribe-of which each individual had been a powerful Force-user-to bring it down. He didn't sense any such barrier, but only a fool would proceed without caution."
Anyway, Lehon being a Dark Side nexus doesn't even matter. Kenobi still wins this fight.
So, he shook the foundations, then structural weakness cause the walls to first explode outward, then everything else collapsed inward? I've never seen a lack of structural integrity cause an outward explosion of a structure. During earthquakes, buildings collapse inward. During intentional demolitions, buildings collapse inward.
The only way the walls could explode outward is if some kind of force such as, I don't know, A MASSIVE FORCE WAVE concussed them and blew them outward.
It's very clear that again certain people want to downplay everything done by any Force user that they don't favor. The fact is considering even moving certain slabs within the temple to access the inner rooms required expenditure of Dark Side energy it's ridiculous to think that simply blowing out an area in the front entry would be sufficient to collapse the entire structure. Despite any foolishness to the contrary the very text itself makes clear that the Force Wave, augmented by the Dark Side energy there or not, utterly ruined the edifice.
Originally posted by -kV-
Are you kidding?"The Unknown World was a place strong in the Force."
"The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed."
"The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban."
Isn;t any planet strong in the Force really these days?
You guys are trying way too hard to dismiss this, being on a world strong in the force does not magically make you so much more powerful than other places. Most of Obi-Wan;s feats take place on places like Coruscant which are very strong in the Force too.
Amd if you want to play that card, I will just point out by your own arguments that darkside was weaker during that era. So going by your logic we should also scale their powers up, seeing as this is on neutral terriotry. So ultimately we arrive at same conclusion.
-KV-
Lehon was strong in the Force. And the temple itself was concentrated in the Dark Side."Bane leapt down from his mount, all his attention focused on the structure towering before him...
He took a trembling step forward before stopping short. He shook his head to clear it. The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed. That meant this was a place of danger; he couldn't afford to be wandering around in a stupor.
According to the accounts he'd read in the archives, the Temple had once been protected by a powerful energy shield, one that required an entire Rakatan tribe-of which each individual had been a powerful Force-user-to bring it down. He didn't sense any such barrier, but only a fool would proceed without caution."
Anyway, Lehon being a Dark Side nexus doesn't even matter. Kenobi still wins this fight.[/b]
Spoiler:
I was being facetious in the extreme.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
So, he shook the foundations, then structural weakness cause the walls to first explode outward,
Who says the temple's walls exploded "outward"?
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Then everything else collapsed inward? I've never seen a lack of structural integrity cause an outward explosion of a structure. During earthquakes, buildings collapse inward. During intentional demolitions, buildings collapse inward.
Yes, this phenomenon is a term described as “implosion” which, coincidentally, is ascribed to the Temple’s destruction by Bane himself. 👆
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The only way the walls could explode outward is if some kind of force such as, I don't know, A MASSIVE FORCE WAVE concussed them and blew them outward.
Thanks for clearing that up, Chief.
Me
Who says the temple's walls exploded "outward"?
Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's very clear that again certain people want to downplay everything done by any Force user that they don't favor.
Ah, the shrill mating cry of the b1tch. I was wondering when those dulcet tones would reach my ears....
Look, you've made it abundantly clear how you feel about Bane. Do I need to fetch your own quotes and parade them here to make a point? One could accuse you of wanting to aggrandize Bane's feats with hilarious, contemptuous ease.
As far as I'm concerned, even if what you say is true, you're in the same boat, just on a different side.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The fact is considering even moving certain slabs within the temple to access the inner rooms required expenditure of Dark Side energy it's ridiculous to think that simply blowing out an area in the front entry would be sufficient to collapse the entire structure.
...Except that's not what's been asserted. What's been asserted is that the temple's shaking foundations is what incited the building's implosion, not collapsing the archway.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Despite any foolishness to the contrary the very text itself makes clear that the Force Wave, augmented by the Dark Side energy there or not, utterly ruined the edifice.
No it doesn't. 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
noThis is the sequence of events: (1) the wave rocked the Temple's foundations, (2) the walls exploded, (3) the archway collapsed, (4) the roof caved in, (5) the temple imploded.
Ok, this is clearly wrong and all it takes is some common sense to see it. You are confusing the order in which the descriptions are written as being the chronological sequence of events. This is not the case. Banes Force Wave would hit the archway and walls before anything else since they are the things he was aiming at and the part of the temple closest to him. We know that it is Banes wave that destroyed this areas because they're described as 'exploding' and being reduced to a 'shower of stones'. The walls would not 'explode' if it was merely structural weakness or some shaking, only an impact would cause that. Furthermore, the walls exploding are linked in the text to be a result of Kas'im being unable to shield the temple 'around him.'
Now the text indicates that the rest of the roof follows the front of the temple 'a second later'. Now I'm no expert on shockwaves (and neither are you), but I'd bet my bottom buck that the shockwave wouldn't reach the foundations and cause that degree of damage in that little amount of time, especially travelling through frigging stone, which isn't exactly known for its ability to allow energy to flow through it. Unless there specific damage to the support, something doesn't collapse under its own weight that swiftly, especially not when theres so many things holding it up, distributing the weight so well, as in the case of the Lehon temple. So whats more likely to have happened is that the shockwave reached the bottom at about the same time as the roof began to collapse. Either way, its highly illogical that the shockwave is the cause of the temples destruction.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane's disruption of the foundations is what caused all of it. It shook, destroying the walls and collapsing the archway, followed by the roof. The structural support was compromised by the building's wobbling, not unlike an earthquake. Weight and gravity conspired to do the rest.
This is nothing but your own interpretation, which as I have shown is illogical and fallacious. You are making assumptions that are not shown inside the text, twisting the sentences to fit into your interpretation. The text only says that the foundations 'shook', not that they were weakened or destroyed in any way. Nowhere is the temple shaking linked to the temples destruction. There is absolutely no mention of the buildings structure or of the building collapsing in and on itself due to its own weight. The only thing indicating that, is you. Whats in the text, is Bane's Force Wave. There is no evidence of anything but the Force Wave destroying the temple. Anything else, is nothing but empty speculation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
If it had been destroyed by Bane's wave in the way you mean it, the building would have toppled back from the force he applied, rather like if I shove you to the ground. Instead, the text clearly says it imploded.
As I said, look at the shape of the temple. It is a round building, there is no way that it can topple backwards. You can't shove it to the ground like you would me because it is not standing on legs like I am. This case would be like if I lay down and then you shoved me. Would I topple backwards? No, my weight is evenly distributed in this case, all you could do would be to push me backwards. In the case of the temple this would not occur because the structure is fused to the ground via the foundations. The walls would shatter and the building would collapse before you could push it backwards. Sound familiar? What the building would not to is 'wobble'. There is not enough vertical structure to wobble and stone would sooner shatter than wobble. So, that makes no sense whatsoever. The only vertical part of the building is the middle part, which Bane's Wave is never mentioned as hitting and even if it did, because of the angle the wave would hit it at, it would still only collapse, not topple over. Even if it did topple over, its not tall enough to clear the roof beneath it. It can only collapse back into the rest of the structure.
Duuuuuurrrrrr!
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because compromising a building's structural integrity and it imploding is a far cry from scattering it to the four winds. Especially on a world extremely powerful in the Force.
The wave still had enough force for a mere fraction of it to be capable to pulping flesh and shattering every bone in Kas'im's body. And whatever you say, Bane's Wave destroyed the temple. It is still a legitimate case of Bane destroying a building with the Force, which last I checked is still a very high-end display of telekinesis.
As for being on Lehon, given that Bane becomes more powerful at later points, vastly increases his Force Mastery and gains access to the orbalisks which increase his power and that he was at the time 'Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle', it would be highly disingenuous to suggest that under more favorable conditions he could not replicate the feat.