Kas'im vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Started by Raptor2212 pages

Originally posted by -kV-
I honestly don't understand how anyone could vote for Kas'im. The pro-Kas'im side hasn't provided any legitimate evidence demonstrating how their character could defeat Kenobi.
i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.

Originally posted by Raptor22
i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.

👆

Agreed.

Jesus christ you some kind of crazed Obi-Wan fanboy?! He's really not all that great, very important character in saga, but average in the Force and never quite the top tier (e.g. Yoda etc) of saber combat.

As Zampano said, Kas'im is plot device with lightsaber, his main trait is that he is INCREDIBLE with a lightsaber, its who his character is bro. Obi-Wan is basically outclassed and outgunned. kekekekekeBwahhahhahahah!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

LOL really??

Share the link bro!

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Neither is themforce powerhouse like say, as Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn. is a
,
Originally posted by mnat801
Get out. How can you say Obi Wan was not a great fighter then in another thread you say Qui gon is better than Yoda.?!?!!?

Yes mnat801, TheOneOfMortis is right! Qui-Gon was a force god! How else do you explain the way he ragdolled Maul all over the place??

Originally posted by Raptor22
i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.

So we're really supposed to take it that the entirety of the OR during Bane's era was utter garbage? The Dark Side as a whole was weakened due to the Brotherhood, but there's no question that the portrayals of combat and the descriptions show many of them to be quite formidable. Kas'im specifically was of note and whatever weaknesses people want to try and project onto the OR as a whole, those who survive for years in an ongoing front lines war are without question of great skill.

Obi-Wan was good at defense without question, but I don't see him taking Kas'im. He took Grevious because Grevious had only sabers to aid, no use of the Force for enhancement, precog, or extra offense. Again, it's only speculation but from the descriptions I really don't see Kas'im having any issue taking down the MagnaGuards with Electrostaves the way Obi-Wan did.

I will say this, however: like Anakin, Kas'im may fall through his own arrogance, sensing that Obi-Wan is weaker in the Force. Further, noting that Obi-Wan fights almost purely defensively, despite his knowledge of Soresu's potential, he might think the battle is over before it begins. Bane may not have been at his peak just yet when he fought Kas'im, but his power was enough to cower almost all the other Sith, and for Kas'im to have gone so boldly with plans to kill him if he was unwilling to return to the Brotherhood there's no doubt that he must have thought even then that his total prowess was enough to win the day. I say that to infer that though we don't get a full picture of Kas'im's ability, he was indeed more than a threat for any but the most capable duelists and had a worthy knowledge of the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.

The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.

Not to mention Cin Drallig...

Mace mastered multiple forms (necessity to master from 7) and the latest clone war sources state that Yoda mastered every form.

That aside your point is a completely valid one.

Originally posted by Nephthys

In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

By that reasoning Mace and Sidious only moved as fast as Samuel L and Ian McDiarmid.

No, since that doesn't directly contradict the movie and Mr Chee has said that speeds in the films are not contradictory with the EU. In this case we have a clear contradiction with the novels description.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since that doesn't directly contradict the movie and Mr Chee has said that speeds in the films are not contradictory with the EU. In this case we have a clear contradiction with the novels description.

It's exactly the same thing for both examples. When the heck did Sidious do dozens of strikes in seconds in the movie??

Grievous and Sidious both moved a hell of a lot faster in the novels than they did in the movies.

And as you pointed out, Mr. Chee says the Eu description of speed is the correct one.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So we're really supposed to take it that the entirety of the OR during Bane's era was utter garbage? The Dark Side as a whole was weakened due to the Brotherhood, but there's no question that the portrayals of combat and the descriptions show many of them to be quite formidable.

Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness was the last organized threat from the Sith Order that had long since crumbled. The power of the Dark Side was diminished. Bane mentions how he learned more about the true nature of the Dark Side from the Holocron in a few short weeks time than all the time he spent at the Academy - he then calls Revan a true Sith Lord, unlike his phony contemporaries.

Raptor is right - Kas'im is the top swordsman of a weakened Sith Order. Plus, he lacks feats to back the true extent of his abilities. His prowess is mentioned by word-of-mouth through Bane. But we know that Bane was still in training (so of course he would find his Battlemaster to be impressive), and Kas'im just the best out of those Bane had seen thus far (which was a weakened Sith Order).

Kas'im specifically was of note and whatever weaknesses people want to try and project onto the OR as a whole, those who survive for years in an ongoing front lines war are without question of great skill.

Except Kas'im spent much of the war training students at Korriban as Blademaster, not battling on the front lines.

However, what you did say applies to Obi-Wan. He walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire in countless battles in variant conditions throughout the Clone Wars. And he dueled many powerful individuals during his time. This was also during the era that George Lucas called the 'Golden Age' of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order. There were many powerhouses during this time, unlike Bane's.

Obi-Wan was good at defense without question, but I don't see him taking Kas'im. He took Grevious because Grevious had only sabers to aid, no use of the Force for enhancement, precog, or extra offense. Again, it's only speculation but from the descriptions I really don't see Kas'im having any issue taking down the MagnaGuards with Electrostaves the way Obi-Wan did.

How can you assume that though? What has Kas'im shown to be more impressive than Kenobi? Kas'im was a very good swordsman, no doubt, but there's nothing to indicate that achieved he Kenobi's mastery of Soresu in any of the forms. In fact, Bane basically owned Kas'im during their fight, despite the Twi'lek being someone who has practiced honing his skills for decades.

I will say this, however: like Anakin, Kas'im may fall through his own arrogance, sensing that Obi-Wan is weaker in the Force. Further, noting that Obi-Wan fights almost purely defensively, despite his knowledge of Soresu's potential, he might think the battle is over before it begins.

Sure, advantage: Kenobi. Also, what proof is there that Kas'im is stronger in the Force than Kenobi?

Bane may not have been at his peak just yet when he fought Kas'im, but his power was enough to cower almost all the other Sith, and for Kas'im to have gone so boldly with plans to kill him if he was unwilling to return to the Brotherhood there's no doubt that he must have thought even then that his total prowess was enough to win the day. I say that to infer that though we don't get a full picture of Kas'im's ability, he was indeed more than a threat for any but the most capable duelists and had a worthy knowledge of the Force.

How Kas'im perceived himself doesn't matter. In the end, he was the one who got owned by Bane. And if he didn't pull out the Jar'Kai, he would have lost badly. As for the inference, sure, Kas'im is likely very good, but to extend that to saying he has the ability to defeat Kenobi in a lightsaber contest is going too far.

Everything Raptor said is correct.

To Ascendancy- well they're not complete garbage, they could probably kick my ass, but in the grand scheme of things compared to dozens and dozens of top tier characters throughout the eras they pretty much were garbage. For the Sith, with the exception of Bane and latter Zannah who would u say isnt? Kas'im was at the top of that garbage pile I'll give u that, but we saw how far above him Bane was in skill and power when he completly dominated him in the first half of the fight. It's not like it was close or they were going back and forth, Kas'im was getting simply dominated. If Bane didn't pause to savor his victory he could have killed him before he even went dual wield and kas'im knew it, and this was the weakest and least experienced version of Bane.

Kas'im very well could have beaten the magna guards easier, but on the other hand I don't see him surviving as long against Anakin on mustafar as obi-wan did never mind beating him, nor do I see him stalemating Vader on the death star for as long as obi-wan did.

Why do you people keep on ignoring the fact Bane was only beating Kas'im because he memoriesed all his moves to point where he could cancel all of them, and then just use his superior force strenght to beat him down?

You make out like Bane was weak when even at this stage he could already use force storm and forcw wave, and was able to destroy a temple with TK, and then he had ADDED and MASSIVE advantage of knowing all of kas'im's moves inside out.

Also quit acting like our entire argument is Kas'im being best of the era's sith, that is not our argument, it is that he mastered all those forms and tanked a temple destroying attack, so it doesnt matter if his order was weak, as he was the exception and would be elite in any era.

Also, KV your bias is showing because you keep on acting like Kas'im has to prove himself to be on Obi-Wan level, and then just dismissing everyones points.

You keep comparing Kas'im to lightsaber instructors who have not mastered all of the 9 forms, or displayed close to his force prowess. Obi-Wan is beaten in skill and in power in this matchup buddy.

AND: if you want RW example of high level mastery of everything beating higher level mastery of just one thing, just look at MMA. Skilled wrestler, Jutsuka, and striker will defeat more skilled striker, he will grapplefck him, he will defeat more skilled wrestler, he will submit him, and he will defeat more skilled jitsuka, he will keep the fight standing. Mastery of everything give you greater freedom to dictate how the fight will play out and exploit weaknesses in opponent.

There is a reaosn pill is 7-3 and it is because your argument convince noone.

Here I thought things like strengt, speed, durability, endurance etc... were factors in a fight. Know I know its just how many styles u know. Why do they even bother to fight, why dont they just list what styles they have mastered and decide the winner like that. How did someone like randy coutoure win so many fights against people who knew far more styles than him. He was just a wrestler with some stand up training late in life. Could it be that his mastery and superiority in his 1 style, wrestling, was to such an extant that it allowed him to beat opponents who knew far more styles.

Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

As well, KV's point regarding Cin Drallig is the most valid point I've seen in this thread thus far. The man was a master of every form- hence why he is the Jedi's weapon master. That didn't stop him from getting effortlessly tooled by Anakin, who was only fighting him with one hand, and who is a master of only one form.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

As well, KV's point regarding Cin Drallig is the most valid point I've seen in this thread thus far. The man was a master of every form- hence why he is the Jedi's weapon master. That didn't stop him from getting effortlessly tooled by Anakin, who was only fighting him with one hand, and who is a master of only one form.

1. Prove that Cin Drallig mastered every style, please.

2. Anakin is far more powerful in the Force than Cin Drallig, an advantage Obi-Wam does not have over Kas'im.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

You do not rc:

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.'

Furthermore, there are no support pillars at the temple entrance:

Originally posted by Raptor22
Here I thought things like strengt, speed, durability, endurance etc... were factors in a fight. Know I know its just how many styles u know. Why do they even bother to fight, why dont they just list what styles they have mastered and decide the winner like that. How did someone like randy coutoure win so many fights against people who knew far more styles than him. He was just a wrestler with some stand up training late in life. Could it be that his mastery and superiority in his 1 style, wrestling, was to such an extant that it allowed him to beat opponents who knew far more styles.

Actually Randy had background in both striking (boxing) and wrestling, in his first fight with Chuck Liddell he was winning the standup, and he also outboxed Tim Sylvia who was a striker, hell even when he was at end of career he tagged Machida a few times which is incredibly hard thing to do.

Randy's bets skill was his wrestling, but he did have the boxing background, and he trained constantly on his Jits, If he was just a wrestler, he would have been submitted with ease against any Jitsuka he takes down, or flat out destroyed against any striker with TDD and good clinch work.

Wrestling is also by far the most important aspect of MMA as well btw, you really want to argue that Soresu has same advantage?

Fightsaber states that Drallig mastered every form except for Vapaad.

Considering Anakin killed Drallig by overwhelming him with his lightsaber skills and cutting him in ****ing half, that's irrelevant. Nice cop-out attempt though.

So we've established that Kas'im being a master of multiple forms does not give him a win over someone who is not, with Drallig as the shining example. Debate's pver- Kenobi rolls him.

But a more powerful Force User can defeat a more skilled lightsaber user even in lightsaber battle, hence because of their improved strenght, speed, stamina, reflex etc. This can certainly be case between Anakin and Cin Drallig, but Obi-Wan does not possess this advantage over Kas'im.

I get impression Fightsaber says no such thing, hence you saying earlier that it was because he was jedi instructor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You do not rc:

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Looks like I was right.