Originally posted by TheGodKillerOn panel we also have Doom saying that Godhood was a role he considered beneath him. We also didn't see him attempt to stop his children when they bum-rushed him.
He would have to devise such a measure before the creatures rebelled against him. On-panel though, we saw his misery begin only when he had already been overwhelmed.
My opinion: Doom became God, swiftly realized that he despised the position, so he allowed himself to be overthrown.
Originally posted by Galan007
On panel we also have Doom saying that Godhood was a role he considered beneath him.My opinion: Doom became God, swiftly realized that he despised the position, and allowed himself to be overthrown.
Or do you think agree with MrM's backhanded implications that the IG makes one unbeatable in its universe?
Originally posted by Galan007
We also didn't see him attempt to stop his children when they bum-rushed him.
"Something uncontrollable. Something wild...something apocalyptic. It was then, on the seventh day, that Doom realized a mistake had been made. He had made a universe in his own image."
Clearly, those things were beyond Doom's ability to control/overpower. Based on your perspective, instead of wasting time in trying to fight against impossible odds, Doom meekly submitted to defeat(quite unlike him) because he knew that Reed and Nate would ultimately come to rescue him.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerWhich shows us that there are limits to its power.
How convenient. Dismissing omnipotent characters from other
companies with the "[insert_random_omnipoten_character] has
nothing to do with Marvel".You do realize that hickman making his IGs non-functional outside
their universe is a concept borrowed from a Marvel/DC crossover, don't you?
And I don't realize the concept being borrowed from the crossover
since the concept was noted years prior in Marvel concerning alternates.
That aside, the reason it didn't work in Marvel/DC crossover wasn't cause it was outside its universe, it's because it was in DC worn by Darkseid.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerExcept for another universe that pushed against the 616-Ig, and
broke 5 gems while causing the 6th to disappear. Or Nazi-Reed
failing to defeat a horde of Earth heroes without going batshit
insane and blowing up his universe.
His incredible feat under ridiculous inexperienced proved to be phenomenal imo.
The Gems breaking was Cap's nooby fault as stated by Hickman himself.
(they're not gone, or destroyed)
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThen stop debating on the VS forums. 90% of the threads
involve cross-company battles, including those in which omnipotent
or all-powerful type characters are involved. Hell, this thread itself
is a cross-company battle. Yet you take the time to respond to it. I
wonder why?
As you can see,
I almost Never inject an opinion on "who wins" in cross-company threads,
if I do, it's for fun and I don't even bother debating
cause I do it to poke at the DC side.
I do participate in these threads though to add,
highlight, or refute information concerning the Marvel side.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThe IG is, and has always been, entirely dependent on the mind of its user. It can only make a character an unbeatable God IF that character is adept enough to make it so... But as we've seen time and time again(not just with the IG), omnipotence takes some time for even the keenest of minds to fully adapt to.
Irrespective of whether your opinions are correct or not, that is an instance of the IG demonstrating that it is very much defeatable even in its native universe.Or do you think agree with MrM's backhanded implications that the IG makes one unbeatable in its universe?
In this case, I believe Doom only lost because he wanted to lose-- even if at only a subconscious level.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerPer those scans Doom couldn't "control" his creations. That doesn't mean he couldn't have BFRd them to the other side of his universe. srsly
From your own scan on the respect thread: http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13547012/ff3.jpg.html"Something uncontrollable. Something wild...something apocalyptic. It was then, on the seventh day, that Doom realized a mistake had been made. He had made a universe in his own image."
Clearly, those things were beyond Doom's ability to control/overpower.
Regardless, yes. I believe Doom allowed his children to take the gauntlet from him.
Originally posted by Galan007On panel we also have Doom saying that Godhood was a role he
considered beneath him. We also didn't see him attempt to stop
his children when they bum-rushed him.My opinion: Doom became God, swiftly realized that he despised the
position, so he allowed himself to be overthrown.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerIt was probably literal considering several thousands of years didn't pass by on 616 Earth.
Depends whether one wants to read Hickman's biblical references in a literal manner, or an allegorical manner. Personally, I read it the latter way.However, even if my interpretation of the timeline of the feat is incorrect, Doom still had 7 days to master the IG, and it would be unreasonable to assume he'd be unable to do so, as Doom is used to mastering and achieving proficiency with omnipotent power sources in short spans of time.
Originally posted by Mr Master
That's correct, nothing to do with Marvel. We know WF Mxy can erase everything on the other side.We know the IG harnessed properly withIN its native universe is "All Powerful."When you pin these two withIN the IG's native universe,a contradiction of character abilities & established station comes into play.And I don't realize the concept being borrowed from the crossoversince the concept was noted years prior in Marvel concerning alternates.
That aside, the reason it didn't work in Marvel/DC crossover wasn't cause it was outside its universe, it's because it was in DC worn by Darkseid.
Cap (who Never wore the IG Before) in a rush, put the glove on and pushed an entire universe away.
His incredible feat under ridiculous inexperienced proved to be phenomenal imo. The Gems breaking was Cap's nooby fault as stated by Hickman himself.(they're not gone, or destroyed)
Lucifer and Mxy are multiversal beings. Just like the Anti-Monitor(the version used in this thread) is a multiversal being. Multiversal beings are beyond universal beings, and this thing is specially apparent with the IG.
Your line of reasoning is essentially the same as saying that "Superman or Hal have nothing to do with Marvel" in a thread that involves a DC high herald against a Marvel low herald.
Also, if you think that Lucifer doesn't have anything to do with Marvel, please refrain from ever again using those ridiculous Reed/Genis/Dr Strange examples to lowball Lucifer's feat of tanking a Big Bang.
And that reason is essentially the very same thing as the IG being outside its universe, and becoming non-functional, since you know, its being wielded by Darkseid in the DC universe, which is outside the Marvel universe. And if you think that Hickman's IG's limitation isn't borrowed from the Marvel/DC crossover, then where did he get that idea from? Or is there a What If in which it was stated or shown that an IG was non-functional? Unless you think that Hickman got his ideas from this obscure(probably non-existent) What If, then it's clear that the idea of an IG being non-functional outside its native universe.
Cap's ineptitude+the IG's own limitations when it comes to any universe not its own native universe. Cap's incompetence in wielding the Infinity Gems is essentially the same a random dude accidentally breaking the gear stick of his car while driving. Such an accident can't just be attributed to said person's ineptitude at handling a gear stick, its also attributed to the gear stick's own mechanical shortcomings.
Also, did Hickman mention on formspring that the gems aren't destroyed? Because on-panel, all but 5 of them were shown shattered. Where is this off-panel retcon of Hickman's?
Originally posted by Mr Master
My objection is solely aimed at "God-like" characters for the most part.As you can see, I almost Never inject an opinion on "who wins" in cross-company threads,if I do, it's for fun and I don't even bother debating cause I do it to poke at the DC side.
I do participate in these threads though [b]to add, highlight, or refute information
concerning the Marvel side. [/B]
Originally posted by ODG
It was probably literal considering several thousands of years didn't pass by on 616 Earth.
Originally posted by Galan007
Per those scans Doom couldn't "control" his creations. That doesn't mean he couldn't have BFRd them to the other side of his universe. srslyRegardless, yes. I believe Doom allowed his children to take the gauntlet from him.
In all probability he did. I even mentioned on the previous page that those creatures were, in all likelihood, not more powerful than the IG. I made a similar observation which you did, back when ODG first brought up this incident in another thread. I cited a She-Hulk comic in which Titania lost the gem to Jen because of subconscious fears. We aren't far off on our opinions, it seems. My only contention has been that the IG doesn't make one unbeatable in its native universe, nor does it make one powerful enough to match a legit multiversal being.
Originally posted by Galan007
The IG is, and has always been, entirely dependent on the mind of its user. It can only make a character an unbeatable God IF that character is adept enough to make it so... But as we've seen time and time again(not just with the IG), omnipotence takes some time for even the keenest of minds to fully adapt to.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThis is not a presumption. In fact, it would be presumptuous to think otherwise. Hickman showed adventures through multiple parallel universes and did not show any time variances. And it bears out here.
That's presuming the timelines of the 616-universe and that universe were in sync. Not to mention, there is no indication of the time-period which passed between Doom's fall and the time when Reed and Nate came to rescue him.
If time passed so quickly in that alternate universe relative to 616 -- with your presumption that Doom spending thousands of years sheparding the Big Bang while only days and weeks passed by in 616 -- then he must also have spent thousands of years imprisoned by his own creations stripped of his IG, waiting to be rescued.
And for the hours that Reed, Nathaniel and Valeria spent in that parallel universe, centuries would have gone by in 616.
Obviously, none of that happened.
Originally posted by ODG
This is not a presumption. In fact, it would be presumptuous to think otherwise. Hickman showed adventures through multiple parallel universes and did not show any time variances. And it bears out here.If time passed so quickly in that alternate universe relative to 616 -- with your presumption that Doom spending thousands of years sheparding the Big Bang while only days and weeks passed by in 616 -- then he must also have spent thousands of years imprisoned by his own creations stripped of his IG, waiting to be rescued.
And for the hours that Reed, Nathaniel and Valeria spent in that parallel universe, centuries would have gone by in 616.
Obviously, none of that happened.
That still doesn't disprove the fact that Doom had enough time to master the IG or that the IG doesn't make one unbeatable in its native universe. Which have been my positions all along.
Edit: Also, what I meant to say is that thousands of years passed by in the Doomverse, while only a few days/weeks passed by in the 616-universe. In that case, the several hours that Reed and Nate spend in that universe would equate to only a few milliseconds/microseconds passed in the 616-verse. Which is virtually no time passed at all.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerDoom needed six days to create a universe. What people argue beyond that is left to them.
Alright.That still doesn't disprove the fact that Doom had enough time to master the IG or that the IG doesn't make one unbeatable in its native universe. Which have been my positions all along.
Edit: Also, what I meant to say is that thousands of years passed by in the Doomverse, while only a few days/weeks passed by in the 616-universe. In that case, the several hours that Reed and Nate spend in that universe would equate to only a few milliseconds/microseconds passed in the 616-verse. Which is virtually no time passed at all.
And I'm sure the few seconds that were spent by that serpent beast trying to drag Doom back meant that years passed by for the rest of its body as it straddled that portal. Except it didn't. As we saw the lobotomized Dooms run through the portal and overwhelm the serpent beast in synchronous real time.
Originally posted by ODG
And I'm sure the few seconds that were spent by that serpent beast trying to drag Doom back meant that years passed by for the rest of its body as it straddled that portal. Except it didn't. As we saw the lobotomized Dooms run through the portal and overwhelm the serpent beast in synchronous real time.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerNothing would have stopped them from coming back. My point is: had Doom actually wanted to retain the IG, he would have at least tried to fend off his children... But he apparently didn't.
Even if he BFRed them to the other side of the universe, what prevents them from simply coming back? They were both creatures of science and magic, afterall.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller👆
In all probability he did. I even mentioned on the previous page that those creatures were, in all likelihood, not more powerful than the IG. I made a similar observation which you did, back when ODG first brought up this incident in another thread. I cited a She-Hulk comic in which Titania lost the gem to Jen because of subconscious fears. We aren't far off on our opinions, it seems. My only contention has been that the IG doesn't make one unbeatable in its native universe, nor does it make one powerful enough to match a legit multiversal being.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThe IG is a universal power-- these days, that fact simply cannot be argued. A multiversal++ power, like Mxy, is going to beat a universal power every single time, and without much effort(sans PIS/CIS, obviously.) Why? Because their power literally operates on an infinitely greater scale/level. Being a universal God doesn't help you if your opponent can pack multiverse-busting energies into a handheld ACME bomb and detonate it in your face.
So you think that if Lucifer and Mxy invaded a Marvel universe, then the IG of that universe would be capable of beating them both?
When I commented on the IG making one "an unbeatable God", I meant an unbeatable God relative to other universal powers.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerAnd if you think that Hickman's IG's limitation isn't borrowed
from the Marvel/DC crossover, then where did he get that idea
from? Or is there a What If in which it was stated or shown that an
IG was non-functional? Unless you think that Hickman got his ideas
from this obscure(probably non-existent) What If, then it's clear
that the idea of an IG being non-functional outside its native universe.
Actually it's from Starlin's IG saga.
So please ask before assuming it's "probably a non-existent" anything.
(why the hell would I say it if it didn't exist) my name is my name. (be back)
Does anyone know of a story, where the 616 IG (pre-Hickman or Nowadays)
was defeated without stipulations/circumstances involved?
Meaning, with straight up power vs an adapted wielder. (unhindered by plot)
GK, I feel a spin in the winds so I'm not responding to your post
with the same argument.
You feel Mxy/Lucifer or whoever from Marvel as well that can affect
"multiversal" scales of space gets the auto win against a power subject
to a single universe.
In most cases, I agree. But this isn't always the case.
(there are a few examples)
Until further notice from upcoming stories,
I take the IG nowadays like I take Jaspers warp.
Simple, withIN the Warp or rather universe the IG controls,
it can't be defeated withIN said universe. (no Pis/Plot involved)
It's the same concept as Moore's Jaspers' warp:
238 Jaspers' warp thwarted Matrix/Merlyn's abilities when it was Global!
(Merlyn - omniversal power at the time)
Originally posted by Galan007No, mxy is not. Your logic boils down to the more powerful guy wins at its core which is completely untrue. I still dispute Mxy is more powerful wholeheartedly but you know the more powerful guy can and has been been beaten in comics plenty of times.
Nothing would have stopped them from coming back. My point is: had Doom actually wanted to retain the IG, he would have at least tried to fend off his children... But he apparently didn't.👆
The IG is a universal power-- these days, that fact simply cannot be argued. A multiversal++ power, like Mxy, is going to beat a universal power every single time, and without much effort(sans PIS/CIS, obviously.) Why? Because their power literally operates on an infinitely greater scale/level. Being a universal God doesn't help you if your opponent can pack multiverse-busting energies into a handheld ACME bomb and detonate it in your face.
When I commented on the IG making one "an unbeatable God", I meant an unbeatable God relative to other universal powers.
References Spider-Man and Hulk as an example.
