Matukai, The 2nd Most Powerful Lightside Force organization

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable.

If thats not enough, wait untill we're both online so there won't be any future false accusations and mixs ups.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh i can't back up the fact that Q99 lied!?

You accused me of lying and editing wookiepedia and I posted evidence otherwise, thus proving you were making it up.

And then when called on it, you kept to your lies even though, y'know, the evidence cleared me and showed you were making a false accusation.

And I'm still pretty sure tadpol is a sock- I mean, the mods check if someone's a sock. If I say, "Hey, I think someone is a sockpuppet!" like I did, I don't actually have the power to make it happen. The mods have to go, "Yep, looks like a sockpuppet," and do the banning.

If he's not, apologies, but between the writing style and the timing? Strikes me as unlikely.

If thats not enough, wait untill we're both online so there won't be any future false accusations and mixs ups.

Says the person who's been caught in numerous false-accusations.

This is kinda why I say you're pathological:

You make something up to sound big.

When called on it, you claim special knowledge that others don't have.

When someone has access to the knowledge, you accuse them of lying.

When called on it with proof, you accuse them of tampering with the source.

When provided with evidence that there's been no tampering with the source, you just stick with your accusations, and repeat them several times, even though you've been caught in a lie.

Then you move on to a different made-up thing about a separate group, and then, once again, someone with all the sources points out it's been made up, and then, once again, you resort to lying.

I mean, you're convincing precisely no-one. It's like you can't stop. When called on an error or exaggeration, you only have two responses, blow it up bigger or accuse the other person of lying.

Which kinda makes me feel bad at coming at you so much, because it seems to be a real problem, you have a legitimate problem with admitting you were making something up.

Originally posted by Q99
You accused me of lying and editing wookiepedia and I posted evidence otherwise, thus proving you were making it up.

And then when called on it, you kept to your lies even though, y'know, the evidence cleared me and showed you were making a false accusation.

And I'm still pretty sure tadpol is a sock- I mean, the mods check if someone's a sock. If I say, "Hey, I think someone is a sockpuppet!" like I did, I don't actually have the power to make it happen. The mods have to go, "Yep, looks like a sockpuppet," and do the banning.

If he's not, apologies, but between the writing style and the timing? Strikes me as pretty unlikely.

Says the person who's been caught in numerous false-accusations.

This is kinda why I say you're pathological:

You make something up to sound big.

When called on it, you claim special knowledge that others don't have.

When someone has access to the knowledge, you accuse them of lying.

When called on it with proof, you accuse them of tampering with the source.

When provided with evidence that there's been no tampering with the source, you just stick with your accusations, and repeat them several times, even though you've been caught in a lie.

Then you move on to a different made-up thing about a separate group, and then, once again, someone with all the sources points out it's been made up, and then, once again, you resort to lying.

I mean, you're convincing precisely no-one. It's like you can't stop. When called on an error or exaggeration, you only have two responses, blow it up bigger or accuse the other person of lying.

Which kinda makes me feel bad at coming at you so much, because it seems to be a real problem, you have a legitimate problem with admitting you were making something up.

I didn't make anything up, you are suspect due to a reason previously stated, and the fact that you know the exact extent of what has to be done in order to erase all evidence concerning the contradictional statement.

So in other words what i said could be possibly right, or it could've been a mistake. But in your case, that lie you placed on TsunamicTadpole cannot be undone. And once the truth comes to light concerning that incident (Which it will very soon) i wonder what happens to you 🙂?

You were the cause of TsunamicTadpole's restriction, since you reported him, using biased circumstantial evidence.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The Matukai's warriors were assassinated by the imperial inquisitors, pure and simple. Jedi Master Theme Cerulian already fought a Matukai adept, (the worse way possible) engaging the adept in Hand-to-hand combat, and later after the fight he limped his way back to the Jedi temple on coruscant, and wrote his quote in The Jedi Path A Manual for Students of the Force, he quoted.

"I fought a Matukai—never again!"Thame Cerulian's notation in The Jedi Path: A Manual of Students of the Force[src]

A incident where a Matukai brutally beat a jedi. Cerulian didn't even think, or attempt to get revenge, but rather he chose to never experience something like that again, no matter how powerful he later developed.

Theme Cerulian basically said engaging a Matukai in close-quarters-combat is suicide, and a experience no one will ever want to go through again 🙂.

The empire had Theme Cerulian's common-sense and decided to either assassinate or overwhelm Matukai adepts, rather then engage neverending Matukai whirlwinds.

Oh wow.

So a Jedi, and not a particularly famously powerful one at that, nor one known for fighting in HtH or indeed fighting in general (He was a Consular, the least combat orient type of Jedi, when, as noted, some Jedi Guardians are known for great HtH power and martial arts), lost a fight- a training fight!- and that means no one ever fought them head on ever?

You are making soooo many assumptions there.

Are they all just that easy to sneak up on that all 60 of them weren't able to get to a battle stance and use this supposed invincible whirlwind of destruction? Remember, there were Jedi who they tried to assassinate who were able to defend themselves. So why did some Jedi withstand them when the Matukai failed?

In fact, several of them fell to the Vong. So what do you think happened there? Vong warriors, who are known for fighting head-on in melee combat, managed to take down several of them. Was that sneaking up on them too?

Also let's not forget that some of them joined the Jedi and didn't blow everyone away with their training. One would think if their training was so good they'd become some of the most powerful members of the order, which didn't exactly happen.

The sources don't say what you're saying they said. The sources say an individual adept managed to beat an individual Jedi, in not a general battle with lightsabers and ranged force powers like TK, but a specific HtH session.

The sources also give a list of their abilities and guess what? They aren't that great. I mean, they aren't bad, but they are not uber, and a lot of the abilities are more about surviving hard conditions through biological control than strait fighting.

And other Jedi are described as whirlwinds in combat, as noted previously ...

The sources didn't disagree with me.

The sources certainly do disagree with you.

Also importantly, they don't agree with you. That is to say, if a source says nothing on a subject one way or another, you can't simply assume it's true.

You attempted to use the hero's guide's first generation Zeison Sha warriors and Matukai adepts as a way of contradiction, which ultimately failed since they both developed tremendously melinnas later.

Aaand nothing says that either. Also, the Hero's Guide covers them up to the Clone Wars era, so no, there was no 'milennia later' for them to get super-strong in.

And the Jedi Training Manual covers them past the Vong war, so I've got sources that cover that too. No, they do not get upgrades post Vong-war.

Again, I have all the sources. Their first appearance, their latest update, all of them.

All the sources! You keep on posting as if I'm not going to know something's not in a book and not on wookiepedia.

You already lost when you added & deleted, but still you're a fun person to argue with 😆.

Lemme remind you of The Logs!

Which contain not only a list of who edited it, but a complete record of all past version, so if quotes that backed up what you said existed, there'd be around a hundred copies of it too.

So no, you're lying again ^^

This is a lie you've been caught in, repeatedly. Once you're caught in a lie that lie doesn't work. You might not know that, but it's true.

Originally posted by Q99

Oh wow.

So a Jedi, and not a particularly famously powerful one at that, nor one known for fighting in HtH or indeed fighting in general (He was a Consular, the least combat orient type of Jedi, when, as noted, some Jedi Guardians are known for great HtH power and martial arts), lost a fight- a training fight!- and that means no one ever fought them head on ever?

You are making soooo many assumptions there.

Are they all just that easy to sneak up on that all 60 of them weren't able to get to a battle stance and use this supposed invincible whirlwind of destruction? Remember, there were Jedi who they tried to assassinate who were able to defend themselves. So why did some Jedi withstand them when the Matukai failed?

In fact, several of them fell to the Vong. So what do you think happened there? Vong warriors, who are known for fighting head-on in melee combat, managed to take down several of them. Was that sneaking up on them too?

Also let's not forget that some of them joined the Jedi and didn't blow everyone away with their training. One would think if their training was so good they'd become some of the most powerful members of the order, which didn't exactly happen.

The sources don't say what you're saying they said. The sources say an individual adept managed to beat an individual Jedi, in not a general battle with lightsabers and ranged force powers like TK, but a specific HtH session.

The sources also give a list of their abilities and guess what? They aren't that great. I mean, they aren't bad, but they are not uber, and a lot of the abilities are more about surviving hard conditions through biological control than strait fighting.

And other Jedi are described as whirlwinds in combat, as noted previously ...

The sources certainly do disagree with you.

Also importantly, they don't agree with you. That is to say, if a source says nothing on a subject one way or another, you can't simply assume it's true.

Aaand nothing says that either. Also, the Hero's Guide covers them up to the Clone Wars era, so no, there was no 'milennia later' for them to get super-strong in.

And the Jedi Training Manual covers them past the Vong war, so I've got sources that cover that too. No, they do not get upgrades post Vong-war.

Again, I have all the sources. Their first appearance, their latest update, all of them.

All the sources! You keep on posting as if I'm not going to know something's not in a book and not on wookiepedia.

Lemme remind you of The Logs!

Which contain not only a list of who edited it, but a complete record of all past version, so if quotes that backed up what you said existed, there'd be around a hundred copies of it too.

So no, you're lying again ^^

This is a lie you've been caught in, repeatedly. Once you're caught in a lie that lie doesn't work. You might not know that, but it's true. [/B]

Rather then the Empire just assassinating the Matukai Adepts, they also chose to overwhelm their low numbers. Darth Sidious learned about the Matukai tradition due to the fact he was in possession of The Jedi Path: A Manual For Students Of the Force, Sidious saw Cerulian's notation and advised his forces to engage them with caution, and to purge them by any means necessary.

Yeah several Matukai apprentices fell to the Yuuzhan vong. There were only 10 Matukai apprentices left to carry on the Matukai tradition after the empire's inquisitors purged the Matukai adepts through the means of assassination & overwhelming numbers.

If you want to talk about pathetic Look at what happened to the Jedi order. Darth Vader killed 52 Jedi, while his Clones, Clone Commandos, and bounty hunters killed off the rest of the Jedi Masters and their Knights. Not even a handful of Jedi, Jedi knights and Jedi Masters survived that purge.

You still forget that those were Matukai apprentices that joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum.

(There's a big difference between Matukai apprentice, and Matukai Adept)

Mendor Typhoons already indicated to the Jedi that Matukai Adepts found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual, thus the 2nd attempted Jedi praxeum lead by Bodo Baas was repulsed. So when you put 2 & 2 together, why would you think any Matukai adepts would even consider joining Luke's Jedi praxeum 🙂?

Thame Cerulian was stupid enough to engage a Matukai adept in the area he is most powerful in.(Physical Combat, Hand-to-hand, and Melee) and the later result was "I fought a Matukai—never again!" ―Thame Cerulian's notation in The Jedi Path: A Manual of Students of the Force[src] 😆. Remember the Jedi & Matukai are Light Side Traditions, That Matukai Adept wasn't fighting Cerulian with the intent to kill which is why the Unidentified Matukai adept disarmed Cerulian of his Lightsaber. So using the excuse of Lightsabers & Force powers not being used doesn't defend or lighten Cerulian's pipen hot but whoopen.

What are you talking about? The Star Wars Roleplaying game Hero's guide is where the Zeison Sha & Matukai traditions were first brought into canon, and in Star Wars time thats 4,000 BBY. Ya sound R E A L Ignorant right now 😄.

Again you don't have all the sources read or research any of the sources, nor did you see Thame Cerulian's notation, which is why you were surprised to see a Jedi getting Manhandled by a Matukai, and yet whats even better, is that that unidentified Matukai's name nor gendar was mentioned or specified. It would be so funny to see a Female Matukai Adept become a Jedi's worst nightmare.

Let me verify what i was saying, because its obvious that you misunderstood once again. What are those links there for? because i made it clear you add & delete, which ment that you change the basis of what you say too much, and give alternate biased based scenarios. Like when you were attempting to debate the Zeison Sha's Survival, by first saying they Resisted, but then Resisted, changed to enduring imperial control, and enduring changed to you saying they survived by Hiding. Keep to the first basis you went by, don't alter it in attempt to make the group of subject look bad.

No im not a lier, you're just acting stupid again.

Thame Cerulian got beaten Senseless by that Unidentified Matukai Adept. What makes his beatdown so funny is the Fact that he couldn't even give a description of the Adept's appearance, Species, Gender, nor the circumstances of what caused the Fight. The only notation he remembered to Put in The Jedi Path: A Manual of Students of the Force, was that he will never again engage a Matukai in close-quarters-combat.

So this leads to 2 possible scenarios, Scenario 1 the Unidentified Matukai's gender is Male, Scenario 2 the Unidentified Matukai's Gender is Female.

Scenario 1. "Thame Cerulian walks into a bar to investigate some suspect activity that involved the sells of illegal weapons & death sticks." "Cerulian's search was not a progressing one, so he decided to ask around to get more intell on the situation, but no luck." "it was then that Cerulian accidentally stepped on a Green boot while turning around, (Unbeknownst to him) a Matukai Adept was standing there." "Cerulian unintentionally disrupted the Meditation stance of the Adept, The Adept became agitated due to what he viewed as Cerulian's carelessness, the Adept wanted answers on why Cerulian disrupted his meditation, causing him to be inconvenienced." "Thame could not give the adept a answer, but rather Thame said he had more pressing matters to attend to, just before the young Jedi could leave the Matukai adept caught a glimpse of the Jedi's Lightsaber underneath his bondaler, and so the Adept stopped the Jedi from leaving." "The Adept requested that the Jedi take a moment to spar him in Hand-to-Hand combat, the Adept stated he was apart of the Matukai Force using tradition, a force Tradition uses the the body to channel the force, stating he was a Adept in the tradition, and that he wanted to get a verification on physical capabilities comparison between the Jedi & Matukai." "Cerulian accepted this request and later engaged the Matukai adept Hand-to-Hand, Thame was defeated and found in a trash compactor 4 hours after the initial fight." 👇.

Logic, use some spacing please. I can't read your (illogical) posts when they blend together like that. Gives headaches.

Easiest way is, when you start a new sentence with quotation marks, hit Enter and drop it down. Easier to read.

Oh, and your stuff has already been disproved. 'nuff said.

Let me verify what i was saying, because its obvious that you misunderstood once again. What are those links there for? because i made it clear you add & delete, which ment that you change the basis of what you say too much, and give alternate biased based scenarios.-

You made it clear? You lied about me and falsely claimed I edited and added stuff to articles, when the logs show I didn't.

Accusing someone of something they didn't do is a blatant lie, and you made it clear that that's what you did.

Like when you were attempting to debate the Zeison Sha's Survival, by first saying they Resisted, but then Resisted, changed to enduring imperial control, and enduring changed to you saying they survived by Hiding. Keep to the first basis you went by, don't alter it in attempt to make the group of subject look bad.

So your argument is I used multiple non-opposed words when saying what they did, therefore I must've edited the articles?

You're a lousy liar, SWL.

One can endure a conflict by using mostly hiding, but of course resisting in the times when one is found. Guerilla fighting, in short. Fight when you have to, hide when you don't.

Oh hey, let's see what one of the books says on them!

Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 91, Zeison Sha section: "From the last days of the Old Republic through the Dark Times and even into the early days of the New Republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunting squads."

And that's the latest, most up-to-date book on the subject bar none, that's the most recent publication on the Zeison Sha, and it agrees with the first source, the Hero's Guide.

As for the Matukai stuff.... like Pwned said, it's already been disproved. With sources, cites, quotes, the works. You can assert it but that just makes you wrong, like it's been established. Again, we have all the sources. Anything not in the sources is made-up, period.

Originally posted by Pwned
Logic, use some spacing please. I can't read your (illogical) posts when they blend together like that. Gives headaches.

Easiest way is, when you start a new sentence with quotation marks, hit Enter and drop it down. Easier to read.

Oh, and your stuff has already been disproved. 'nuff said.

Originally posted by Q99
You made it clear? You lied about me and falsely claimed I edited and added stuff to articles, when the logs show I didn't.

Accusing someone of something they didn't do is a blatant lie, and you made it clear that that's what you did.

So your argument is I used multiple non-opposed words when saying what they did, therefore I must've edited the articles?

You're a lousy liar, SWL.

One can endure a conflict by using mostly hiding, but of course resisting in the times when one is found. Guerilla fighting, in short. Fight when you have to, hide when you don't.

Oh hey, let's see what one of the books says on them!

[b]Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 91, Zeison Sha section: "From the last days of the Old Republic through the Dark Times and even into the early days of the New Republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunting squads."

And that's the latest, most up-to-date book on the subject bar none, that's the most recent publication on the Zeison Sha, and it agrees with the first source, the Hero's Guide.

As for the Matukai stuff.... like Pwned said, it's already been disproved. With sources, cites, quotes, the works. You can assert it but that just makes you wrong, like it's been established. Again, we have all the sources. Anything not in the sources is made-up, period. [/B]

The Zeison Sha fought off the imperial occupation on their planet, and later some of their initiates left the planet incognito, for fear of the jedi hunters. And then the Zeison Sha Warriors chose not to engage more imperial forces after the battle, but to avoid the conflict if possible. They were smart & powerful. There's nothing left to debate. Most of you here don't like the fact that the Zeison Sha & Matukai are superior orders in specific areas, but they aren't more numberous as a way counterbalancing them apart.

Where exactly did you tell me this? I don't recall it.

Though I do know that your tendency to blow things out of proportions has already been noted.

And like i told pwned, the whole first message of this thread was a replica of wookieepedia's info on them,

Sure, the text of the first post is largely direct from Wookiepedia, with little problem there. You then go way beyond Wookiepedia, saying that Jedi can't fight against something who's a whirlwind of martial arts- when the Jedi themselves have moves specifically described as the user moving like a whirlwind-, or that their physical training makes them better than Jedi overall, which wookiepedia does not say, and in fact the Wookiepedia article on the Matukai mentions Jedi conduct physical training as well, and we know quite a few Jedi who go beyond the basic minimum of the Jedi at that and are very powerful martial artists in themselves.

You also in the thread title label them as the 2nd strongest lightside force organization- and we already know who you consider the first- implying that they're stronger than the Jedi, which doesn't hold up either, when they were almost wiped out by an organization largely made up up of former Jedi that was later destroyed by Jedi, in addition to later-era Jedi having direct access to their training.

That's the stuff that's been disproved. You start with the wookiepedia article- good, then you run with it and make a ton of assumptions about outright superiority or that the Jedi have nothing to match what they do (rather than them just being among the high levels, but not the only ones at the high levels, of their specialized area)- bad, and unsupported.

so i don't know how you came to that conclusion. all in all, stop replying if you feel the way you feel.

Conversely, you could stop trying to push conclusions beyond the text.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where exactly did you tell me this? I don't recall it.

Though I do know that your tendency to blow things out of proportions has already been noted.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, the text of the first post is largely direct from Wookiepedia, with little problem there. You then go way beyond Wookiepedia, saying that Jedi can't fight against something who's a whirlwind of martial arts- when the Jedi themselves have moves specifically described as the user moving like a whirlwind-, or that their physical training makes them better than Jedi overall, which wookiepedia does not say, and in fact the Wookiepedia article on the Matukai mentions Jedi conduct physical training as well, and we know quite a few Jedi who go beyond the basic minimum of the Jedi at that and are very powerful martial artists in themselves.

You also in the thread title label them as the 2nd strongest lightside force organization- and we already know who you consider the first- implying that they're stronger than the Jedi, which doesn't hold up either, when they were almost wiped out by an organization largely made up up of former Jedi that was later destroyed by Jedi, in addition to later-era Jedi having direct access to their training.

That's the stuff that's been disproved. You start with the wookiepedia article- good, then you run with it and make a ton of assumptions about outright superiority or that the Jedi have nothing to match what they do (rather than them just being among the high levels, but not the only ones at the high levels, of their specialized area)- bad, and unsupported.

Conversely, you could stop trying to push conclusions beyond the text.

You also forget that Matukai adepts are masters of controlling their bodies, inward, and outward. The Matukai adepts were capable of using the Wan-shen with a speed, described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades. They were also able to control their bodies in the same maneuverability they demonstrated with their wan-shens, basically they reached the body control and strength of a whirlwind, which in other words is a feat no Jedi replicated or mastered.

The Jedi's only known technique that resembles that of a whirlwind was Jar-Kar, and even then that's only the Jedis defensive Lightsaber maneuvering style. The Jedi have never reached the body maneuverability nor have they achieved the strength of a whirlwind, the Matukai Adepts are on that level.

Yeah imperial inquisitors purged the Matukai adepts through assassination & overwhelming numbers, they are the emperor's hands after all. But most of the Jedi Masters & Knights you deemed more powerful then the Matukai adepts, were killed off by Clone Troopers, Clone Commandos, and Bounty Hunters.

Its funny, because it takes the emperor's hands (Imperial Inquisitors) to purge the Matukai Adepts which are the lowest in number, and it takes Bounty Hunters, Clone Troopers, and Clone Commandos to purge the vast majority of Jedi Masters & Knights you deemed more powerful.

Its already clear that Matukai adepts are the most powerful physically, Looked at what happened to Thame Cerulian. He was quoted to be a powerful Jedi Master, and eventually he fought a Matukai adept. He got beaten senseless by that Unidentified Matukai adept, so bad, that he not only suffered physical damage, but physiological damage as well. In short a Matukai Adept became a Jedi's worst nightmare on the field of battle.

Jedi vs Matukai, Matukai wins, debate closed👇

Oh lookie what we got here?

The Imperial Inquisitors used Ultrachrome protection[1] and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive.

Along with the fact that the Matukai were one of the first force orders the empire hunted down. Those Imperial Inquisitors assassinated the Matukai Adepts, never engaging a Matukai Adept in combat. That just proves those inquisitors used common sense and avoided engaging Matukai Adepts in combat. Now its known as a suicide to engage a Matukai Adept in combat. Pitiful Sith.

The only known person to engage a Matukai Adept head-on and survive, was Thame Cerulian. But at the end of that horrific experience, Cerulian had the Sense knocked out of him👇

After this i don't have any respect for those who call themselfs the "New Sith Order"

i like the fact that i'm still a puppet so how can i stop being a puppet to you what wood it take so you can believe me

The Jedi NEVER had access to Matukai training.

Except for, y'know, from the Matukai who joined.

So, lie one.

You also forget that Matukai adepts are masters of controlling their bodies, inward, and outward. The Matukai adepts were capable of using the Wan-shen with a speed, described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades.

I forget none of that. It's just you're making the assumption that makes them better than the Jedi in combat, when nothing says they're better in combat overall.

Unfounded assumption 1.

They were also able to control their bodies in the same maneuverability they demonstrated with their wan-shens, basically they reached the body control and strength of a whirlwind, which in other words is a feat no Jedi replicated or mastered.

And no, I've specifically noted when the Jedi replicate that and they even have a common name for that move.

Lie two.

The Jedi's only known technique that resembles that of a whirlwind was Jar-Kar, and even then that's only the Jedis defensive Lightsaber maneuvering style.

Actually it's a highly offensive move, used to increase one's number of attacks aside from defensive benefits.

Jar'Kai isn't a defensive style it's just two-saber fighting, and btw it doesn't even require Jar'kai, it's just easier to do with it.

Lie three.

The Jedi have never reached the body maneuverability nor have they achieved the strength of a whirlwind, the Matukai Adepts are on that level.

Lie four.

Yeah imperial inquisitors purged the Matukai adepts through assassination & overwhelming numbers, they are the emperor's hands after all. But most of the Jedi Masters & Knights you deemed more powerful then the Matukai adepts, were killed off by Clone Troopers, Clone Commandos, and Bounty Hunters.

After being shot in the back usually at extreme numbers differential, in a situation unlike what the Matukai faced. And then they faced the same Inquisitors that were hunting down the Matukai, and yet still quite a few made it completely through the dark times.

Also, Imperial Inqusitors were not Emperor's Hands. The Emperor's Hands were the next step up, and stronger than the Inquisitors. There was one High Inquisitor rumored to also be a Hand, but the likes of Mara Jade and Maarek Stele and Arden Lyn were not Inquisitors.

Its already clear that Matukai adepts are the most powerful physically,

Quote from the Jedi path: They "are among the best martial artists."

Not 'clearly' or 'overwhelmingly,' or even 'the best,' but rather 'among the best.' Meaning, while they're up there, they have rivals.

Unfounded assumption 2.

He was quoted to be a powerful Jedi Master, and eventually he fought a Matukai adept. He got beaten senseless by that Unidentified Matukai adept, so bad, that he not only suffered physical damage, but physiological damage as well.

He fought a Matukai at the Matukai's own game, he was a Jedi Consular, not a guardian or sentinel, and his own student considered him weak. Nothing says he was even focused on martial arts. So, lie 5, Thame was not indicated to be all that impressive in combat.

And "I wouldn't want to fight one again," is 'psychological damage'? That's worth an Unfounded assumption 3.

This also, noteworthy, says little about how an all-out, not just martial arts battle would do. You know, using force powers and such. On a battle not set up to favor one side over the other.

Nor does it say much at all how a stronger Jedi would do, and there are Jedi much stronger than Thame.

--
Face it, this?

In short a Matukai Adept became a Jedi's worst nightmare on the field of battle.

Is nothing but wishful thinking, taking any mention of ability as if it was a statement of clear superiority.

All that's said is the Matukai are among the best in a specific area and that one beat a middling master in their own speciality. Well, duh.

You drawing overall superiority from that is just a collection of lies and unfounded exaggerations bundled up in your own head.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh lookie what we got here?

The Imperial Inquisitors used Ultrachrome protection[1] and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive.

Along with the fact that the Matukai were one of the first force orders the empire hunted down.

Yea, after the public execution of the Jedi. They were one of the early ones, not the first, following an incredibly public and obvious spectacle.

Notably, the Imperial Inquisition was not even yet founded when Order 66 went down, and was largely made up of former Jedi turned after the order. Meaning, while high on the list, they likely had at *least* months of warning.

Those Imperial Inquisitors assassinated the Matukai Adepts, never engaging a Matukai Adept in combat.

Never, huh? I mean, even with hiding themselves in the force, ambushing over 50 of them seems absurd, especially when they operated in pairs and trios. Not a single one was able to put up their guard after their buddy died?

Especially because there were Jedi able to fight off the Inquisition, and even given some were caught by surprise, the Matukai is a scattered order, hardly all of them would fall before any prepared.

Jedi still accomplished with the Matukai didn't here, and you're still making unfounded assumptions here... ones that actually make the Matukai look pretty poor.

Unfounded assumption 3.

That just proves those inquisitors used common sense and avoided engaging Matukai Adepts in combat. Now its known as a suicide to engage a Matukai Adept in combat. Pitiful Sith.

Nope, nothing says it's suicidal, and the Imperial Inquisition's methods have been seen often, they regularly take their targets on in combat. This is worth Lie 6 and
Unfounded assumption 4.

Heck, the RPG gives Inquisitors better combat stats!

The only known person to engage a Matukai Adept head-on and survive, was Thame Cerulian. But at the end of that horrific experience, Cerulian had the Sense knocked out of him👇

The only named to engage a Matukai *period*, mind you, and he was a Jedi Consular, the least-combat focused type of Jedi, and his own future student considered him weak.

Also, both Vong and Vong supporters have killed Matukai, and Vong tend to fight head on, so to say Thame is the 'only known' is wrong. We know other people have, we just don't know their names. Lie 7.

After this i don't have any respect for those who call themselfs the "New Sith Order"

That seems completely unrelated to anything, really?

Q99 is right there, Logic. So please GTFO.

Originally posted by Q99
Except for, y'know, from the Matukai who joined.

So, lie one.

I forget none of that. It's just you're making the assumption that makes them better than the Jedi in combat, when nothing says they're better in combat overall.

Unfounded assumption 1.

And no, I've specifically noted when the Jedi replicate that and they even have a common name for that move.

Lie two.

Actually it's a highly offensive move, used to increase one's number of attacks aside from defensive benefits.

Jar'Kai isn't a defensive style it's just two-saber fighting, and btw it doesn't even require Jar'kai, it's just easier to do with it.

Lie three.

Lie four.

After being shot in the back usually at extreme numbers differential, in a situation unlike what the Matukai faced. And then they faced the same Inquisitors that were hunting down the Matukai, and yet still quite a few made it completely through the dark times.

Also, Imperial Inqusitors were not Emperor's Hands. The Emperor's Hands were the next step up, and stronger than the Inquisitors. There was one High Inquisitor rumored to also be a Hand, but the likes of Mara Jade and Maarek Stele and Arden Lyn were not Inquisitors.

Quote from the Jedi path: They "are among the best martial artists."

Not 'clearly' or 'overwhelmingly,' or even 'the best,' but rather 'among the best.' Meaning, while they're up there, they have rivals.

Unfounded assumption 2.

He fought a Matukai at the Matukai's own game, he was a Jedi Consular, not a guardian or sentinel, and his own student considered him weak. Nothing says he was even focused on martial arts. So, lie 5, Thame was not indicated to be all that impressive in combat.

And "I wouldn't want to fight one again," is 'psychological damage'? That's worth an Unfounded assumption 3.

This also, noteworthy, says little about how an all-out, not just martial arts battle would do. You know, using force powers and such. On a battle not set up to favor one side over the other.

Nor does it say much at all how a stronger Jedi would do, and there are Jedi much stronger than Thame.

--
Face it, this?

Is nothing but wishful thinking, taking any mention of ability as if it was a statement of clear superiority.

All that's said is the Matukai are among the best in a specific area and that one beat a middling master in their own speciality. Well, duh.

You drawing overall superiority from that is just a collection of lies and unfounded exaggerations bundled up in your own head.

Yea, after the public execution of the Jedi. They were one of the early ones, not the first, following an incredibly public and obvious spectacle.

Notably, the Imperial Inquisition was not even yet founded when Order 66 went down, and was largely made up of former Jedi turned after the order. Meaning, while high on the list, they likely had at *least* months of warning.

Never, huh? I mean, even with hiding themselves in the force, ambushing over 50 of them seems absurd, especially when they operated in pairs and trios. Not a single one was able to put up their guard after their buddy died?

Especially because there were Jedi able to fight off the Inquisition, and even given some were caught by surprise, the Matukai is a scattered order, hardly all of them would fall before any prepared.

Jedi still accomplished with the Matukai didn't here, and you're still making unfounded assumptions here... ones that actually make the Matukai look pretty poor.

Unfounded assumption 3.

Nope, nothing says it's suicidal, and the Imperial Inquisition's methods have been seen often, they regularly take their targets on in combat. This is worth Lie 6 and
Unfounded assumption 4.

Heck, the RPG gives Inquisitors better combat stats!

The only named to engage a Matukai *period*, mind you, and he was a Jedi Consular, the least-combat focused type of Jedi, and his own future student considered him weak.

Also, both Vong and Vong supporters have killed Matukai, and Vong tend to fight head on, so to say Thame is the 'only known' is wrong. We know other people have, we just don't know their names. Lie 7.

That seems completely unrelated to anything, really?

The Jedi have never reached the Strength and Body Maneuverability of a whirlwind, the Matukai have.
The Jedi have never developed a technique that immediately refreshes your spirit, giving feats of strength and power exceeding what the body was originally capable of, thus becoming stronger then what the body once was before being fatigued, the Matukai Done this.
The Jedi have never developed a physically immunity to all poisons & illnesses, the Matukai have. The Jedi reached the body level to being resistant to poisons, not being immune to them.
The Jedi have never reached the speed of a helicopter propeller with their Melee weapons, being viewed as a virtual whirlwind of Metal and blades, the Matukai have.
The Jedi had the Lightsaber style known as Jar-kar. That Lightsaber style was known as a brilliant whirlwind. The brilliant lightsaber whirlwind brilliant Jar-Kar has been defined as an almost vertical column of rapidly swung lightsabers, not reaching the speed of a actual whirlwind (Virtual Whirlwind) but something of similarity (Briliant whirlwind)

The dark side organization known as Inquisitorius, was under direct control of Darth Vader. This organizations consisted of the highest ranking Dark Side Adepts, outranking the emporer's hands, Prophets of the Dark Side. Those inquisitors used lightsabers, and They used Ultrachrome protection[1] and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive. Those 3 things is what they used to hunt all force sensitives. those 3 items were essential in purging the Matukai Adepts.

To put it simple, the inquisitorius were the organization that assassinated the Matukai adepts.

Both Yuuzhan Vong and their supporters killed several Matukai apprentices. Experienced Matukai Adepts were gone at that time, and the lesser experienced adepts were gone at that time.

I never said the Matukai were the first, but ONE of the first force orders that suffered. the Matukai adepts were largely caught off guard, being assassinated in the process.

Once again the RPG hero's guide was where the Zeison Sha & Matukai were first brought into canon, in Star Wars time thats 4,000 BBY. Using the 1st Generation Matukai Adept prestige tradition in comparison to Imperial inquisitors, is pathetic. Same goes for trying to Base the first generation Zeison Sha in comparison to other orders.

Common Sense would have told you the Zeison Sha are the most powerful Light Side order. Since they are stronger then most, or even all when it comes to Mind Prowers & Prowess. The Mind is what controls it all. It controls The Physical and spiritual manifestation.

Common Sense would have told you the Matukai are the 2nd most powerful Light Side Order.

Do you need the Copy & pasted quotes on the Matukai's physical superiority, and Zeison Sha's unmatched telekinetic Might to Destroy even more of your arguments then what has already been trashed 🙂?

Originally posted by Pwned
Q99 is right there, Logic. So please GTFO.