Matukai, The 2nd Most Powerful Lightside Force organization

Originally posted by Q99
Axel- I can do multiple things!

...?

You can't win arguments by lying about what the other person says. Also, this forum doesn't allow edits past 15 minutes, meaning that it's provable what was said by each side. The record of what I said is actually there, just a few clicks away. Trying to say I said something different than I said simply doesn't work.

This is just another sad lie of yours.

You said they were the 2nd most powerful overall in the thread title.

Which, is false.

You've also said it's suicide for a Jedi or Imperial Inquisitor to take them head on.

Which, is also false.

Now, if you want to say, "they're the most power purely in physical ability," sure, I don't disagree with that, they're directly stated to be among the best, other people can reach the level but they're top tier. There's a lot that force users have beyond physical power, though, so being the most powerful physically do not make then overall more powerful than other orders.

Which, in turn, does not actually mean that all Jedi are bad at it. Thame was, but Jedi like Luminara and Mace Windu have extremely impressive physical feats, and there are other martial arts like Teräs Käsi that also make one extremely powerful physically, and some Jedi learn these.

SWL, just a reminder: There an exact list of the Matukai and Zeison Sha's abilities. I have an exact list of the Matukai and Zeison Sha's abilities.

I have posted precisely which powers they have that are unique to them (namely, in the Matukai's case, poison-immunity, body hardening, and other abilities good at surviving harsh environments, not speed beyond the Jedi. In the Zeison Sha's case, they have a weaker version of force shield so that lower-rank members can defend themselves before getting the full version [which is the exact same as the Jedi one], no chance of a ZS warrior failing at normal TK [so where a rookie Jedi can fail, a ZS won't. However, an experienced Jedi won't either], and the ability for a master to use small objects quickly flicked with TK to block projectiles [which is something the Jedi don't have period, but also, with their lightsabers, don't need]). Those are the only powers they have that the Jedi do not have access to.

It's not biased to say someone's not stronger when you have a precise list of their abilities... and they have some kinda-neat tricks but aren't stronger.

That and you also have to look at the fact, that the Star Wars Roleplaying game hero's guide is a board game, you don't have any visual verification as to what heights the Zeison Sha & Matukai can go to. The guide book exemplifies the basic powers & abilities of all traditions, prestige and otherwise.

If there's a Video game with playable Matukai & Zeison Sha link it, so there can be visual verification, if you can't cease with your disagreements and go somewhere else.

Oh im not lying, go to the 1st page of this thread, and look for your reply to KylarWhite. That first paragraph contradicted what you said afterwards in another post, which was "The jedi are specialist in all areas" its a contradiction against yourself no matter what way you look at it.

The Matukai are the 2nd most powerful order of light side force sensitives. Their unparalleled physical prowess would spell the end of the Jedi order if a Matukai decided to break the tradition of 60 Matukai every generation. The Matukai apprentices robes are beneficial to whoever wear them, its empowers their individuals by 1% in terms of strength, dexterity, and constitution. Matukai adept robes empowers the individuals who wear them by 2% in strength, dexterity and constitution.

Wearing the robes of the Matukai order empowers their individuals physically. And looking at the Fact that they can't be killed by fatal Kouhan stings, that says no poison or manufactured illnesses can kill them or affect them.

So the Matukai Order are the most powerful physically, and all members of their order wear body empowering robes. If a Matukai breaks the tradition of 60 Matukai every generation, there would be no point to joining the jedi order anymore.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Yeah i did back it up with my words, which stands as evidence.

You keep saying Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, this reveal contradiction,

the Jedi Council sought an alliance with another Force sect, the Matukai. Upon learning that a Matukai named Mendor Typhoons had defeated a pirate gang near the world of Ord Radama, Baas and the others arranged for a meeting in orbit of Ord Radama.

Why would Bodo Baas attempt to bring the Matukai into the jedi's fold and train them, if he knew were too weak to be jedi in the first place 🙂?
Answer, Bodo wouldn't have attempted to convert the Matukai into the order if he knew they were too weak to be jedi. If he did attempt to convert matukai members too weak for jedi training, that would have defeated the purpose for his reasons of alliance. Most of the Matukai's individuals (Matukai apprentices) were too old and wouldn't have been picked for jedi training in the first place.

I never contradicted Wookieepedia. I just used different words with the same meanings.

You have to understand no source books concerning the Matukai and Zeison Sha will be released anytime soon. If any Matukai & Zeison Sha story books were released, that would cause the Jedi order's collapse.

It doesn't matter what sources Q99 has gone through. Q99 needs word for word based evidence described by sources in order to get verification concerning something controversial. Since what i said isn't word for word in his eyes, he deemed it lies. Due to the fact he has a inability to decrypt word based definitions. In short, Q99 has the perception of a 7th grader.

Oh you just directly contradicted yourself and your friend Q99 by saying "Oh, and you can't use mechanics for a RPG/Game in order to back these up" (Even through Kotor 2 stands as evidence, while the hero's guide stands as the basics of what both orders can do) I guess you really are stupid 😎.

In other words everything you have said here is utter jedi fanboyism.

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.

No, you used different words and gave them a different meaning. Your assumptions are not canon, nor are they even true. You say what supports your, "argument" even though very little of it is true.

And of course the won't. Because those orders are nothing but backdrop. They don't matter.

And the mechanics of KotoR 2 do not stand as evidence, the fluff, or stuff in descriptions and the like, are what stand. Mechanics make the game work. So if there is flavor text for them, then that can be used.

So your, "1% increase in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution" does not stand up as evidence at all. Those have no relevance to anything whatsoever. Same with class abilities. Otherwise I could say, "Well in Saga Edition every Jedi gets the ability to utilize Saber forms that give a 2% increase in their ability to hit, and can survive falling from low orbit without significant impairment" when none of that is true. (That comes in with BAB and HP btw. Because they actually can)

Originally posted by Pwned
That's not how it works. You have to use official sources to back up your claims. Saying, "Its true because I say so! That means it's evidence!" in not how you debate. That is arguing. Poorly at that.

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.

No, you used different words and gave them a different meaning. Your assumptions are not canon, nor are they even true. You say what supports your, "argument" even though very little of it is true.

And of course the won't. Because those orders are nothing but backdrop. They don't matter.

And the mechanics of KotoR 2 do not stand as evidence, the fluff, or stuff in descriptions and the like, are what stand. Mechanics make the game work. So if there is flavor text for them, then that can be used.

So your, "1% increase in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution" does not stand up as evidence at all. Those have no relevance to anything whatsoever. Same with class abilities. Otherwise I could say, "Well in Saga Edition every Jedi gets the ability to utilize Saber forms that give a 2% increase in their ability to hit, and can survive falling from low orbit without significant impairment" when none of that is true. (That comes in with BAB and HP btw. Because they actually can)

These robes were worn by individuals who had mastered the Matukai philosophy of achieving harmony between the mind and body, hence were capable of incredible physical feats. The Matukai were an order of Force-sensitives who used exercise as a form of meditation. The balance of the physical body and spiritual Force was the cornerstone of their philosophy.

I use different words with the same meanings. 2 ways of saying the same thing in short🙂.

Originally posted by Pwned

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.

That already trashed your little theory of Matukai being weak.

You are biased, plan and simple.

You say I'm biased, but I have multiple sources with quotes to back me up, with the information provided and even supported by the article you posted.

I say you're making things up and lying, and you have nothing but your word that's contradicted by sources and quotes, even ones you use.

One of these things has more credibility than the other, and it's not you.

You can't simply 'want' someone into being biased, or for the sources to not disprove your arguments. Heck, regardless of what I think, they contradict you nonetheless, blatantly and often.

The hero's guide is not a exact list.

Nope, it has an exact list of the abilities that are unique to them through all their levels, and it does not say it's a basic list or say that there's stuff it doesn't cover.

Also, I also have the Jedi Academy Training Manual, which also goes into their abilities in depth more recently.

Remember, I am not relying on one source. I have *every last source*.

Not a single one so much as hints at uber abilites beyond what's mentioned.

You're acting like arguing one source not saying what it does, in fact, say, somehow defeats my own argument, but the Hero's Guide has more than you'd like, and I have additional sources as well.

Its a Basics list of their powers & abilities, its not the height of what they can do, its just a introduction to their prestige tradition.

Nope, you've asserted it's the basics because it's the first one published, but it's not written as such, it's an in-depth coverage of them designed to allow someone to play a Matukai up to their highest levels.

And, as mentioned, I have the latest information too. I have every single source and not just made-up assertions.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The one thing you still fail to understand is, i am a source.

You are a source of your own personal fanon. It doesn't make it true.

A person is not a source unless they are a Star Wars writer- and that is one actually hired to write the particular thing. A person can pass on information on other sources, but a person isn't a canon source just because you want to be.

KOTOR 2 does stand as evidence, heck the description in the Matukai adept robe says how magnificent they are physically.

Yep, and no-one's saying that they aren't great physically. You're the only one taking it to mean that they're stronger than an organization with literally multiple orders of magnitude larger recruiting pool who regularly clashed with the full Sith order and who also train to develop powerful abilities.

These robes were worn by individuals who had mastered the Matukai philosophy of achieving harmony between the mind and body, hence were capable of incredible physical feats. The Matukai were an order of Force-sensitives who used exercise as a form of meditation. The balance of the physical body and spiritual Force was the cornerstone of their philosophy.

And does any of that say they're more powerful?

Nope!

It didn't stop them from falling to the Imperial Inquisition either, something that explicitly happened.

You just have this bad tendency of taking a statement saying, "Group X is good at Y," and then jumping with it and saying "Ah ha, they MUST be better than group N!".

Even if nothing says that they're better than group N, and group N has people good at Y while also having other people good at Z, R, and M, and some who're good at multiple of those.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Since you think Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, why would Bodo baas want to incorporate their "weaker" training methods 🙂?

That already trashed your little theory of Matukai being weak.

Nope, they had weaker *force potential*, he didn't think their training was bad.

Basically, the Matukai would take people who are 1s and 2s, and bump them up to 4s and 5s.

Jedi would pass on 1s and 2s and take people who have higher potential out the gate and train them to use that potential well.

In short, the Matukai were like hybrid cars- they get really good gas milage and good power for how little gas they use.

The Jedi, on the other hand, have people who burn twice the power but that's ok because they have twice the tank. Sometimes more (Mace Windu, Yoda, etc.). They had the pick of the people with the most potential in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Q99
You say I'm biased, but I have multiple sources with quotes to back me up, with the information provided and even supported by the article you posted.

I say you're making things up and lying, and you have nothing but your word that's contradicted by sources and quotes, even ones you use.

One of these things has more credibility than the other, and it's not you.

You can't simply 'want' someone into being biased, or for the sources to not disprove your arguments. Heck, regardless of what I think, they contradict you nonetheless, blatantly and often.

Nope, it has an exact list of the abilities that are unique to them through all their levels, and it does not say it's a basic list or say that there's stuff it doesn't cover.

Also, I also have the Jedi Academy Training Manual, which also goes into their abilities in depth more recently.

Remember, I am not relying on one source. I have *every last source*.

Not a single one so much as hints at uber abilites beyond what's mentioned.

You're acting like arguing one source not saying what it does, in fact, say, somehow defeats my own argument, but the Hero's Guide has more than you'd like, and I have additional sources as well.

Nope, you've asserted it's the basics because it's the first one published, but it's not written as such, it's an in-depth coverage of them designed to allow someone to play a Matukai up to their highest levels.

And, as mentioned, I have the latest information too. I have every single source and not just made-up assertions.

You are a source of your own personal fanon. It doesn't make it true.

A person is not a source unless they are a Star Wars writer- and that is one actually hired to write the particular thing. A person can pass on information on other sources, but a person isn't a canon source just because you want to be.

Yep, and no-one's saying that they aren't great physically. You're the only one taking it to mean that they're stronger than an organization with literally multiple orders of magnitude larger recruiting pool who regularly clashed with the full Sith order and who also train to develop powerful abilities.

And does any of that say they're more powerful?

Nope!

It didn't stop them from falling to the Imperial Inquisition either, something that explicitly happened.

You just have this bad tendency of taking a statement saying, "Group X is good at Y," and then jumping with it and saying "Ah ha, they MUST be better than group N!".

Even if nothing says that they're better than group N, and group N has people good at Y while also having other people good at Z, R, and M, and some who're good at multiple of those.

Nope, they had weaker *force potential*, he didn't think their training was bad.

Basically, the Matukai would take people who are 1s and 2s, and bump them up to 4s and 5s.

Jedi would pass on 1s and 2s and take people who have higher potential out the gate and train them to use that potential well.

In short, the Matukai were like hybrid cars- they get really good gas milage and good power for how little gas they use.

The Jedi, on the other hand, have people who burn twice the power but that's ok because they have twice the tank. Sometimes more (Mace Windu, Yoda, etc.). They had the pick of the people with the most potential in the galaxy.

So what you're saying is, Matukai are really proficient in Hand-to-hand, while also being really powerful physically, while using little force power to achieve that? 😆 CONTRADICTION.

This is just like arguing with a Zombie. Nothing needs to say the Matukai are the most powerful light side order physically. Looking at their physical abilities in comparison to the jedi's, already deemed the matukai superior overall, physically.

Matukai adepts can punch, kick and flip at the speed of a whirlwind blur. (Complex martial sequences)

Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)

The Matukai adepts were able to use wan-shens with the astonishing speed of a virtual whirlwind. (Helicopter propeller)

Matukai Wins again.

I'll be back tomorrow 🙂.

So what you're saying is, Matukai are really proficient in Hand-to-hand, while also being really powerful physically, while using little force power to achieve that? CONTRADICTION.

No, not a contradiction. I mean, the first two are the same thing, and the Matukai training is specifically on building the most out of a weak-ish link to the force. Nor is hand to hand skill based on force connection.

... you really didn't read their wookieepedia article, did you? This was covered there.

This is just like arguing with a Zombie. Nothing needs to say the Matukai are the most powerful light side order physically.

Actually, it does. That's what burden of proof is, when you make a claim, something needs to say it's true.

And no matter how many times you make a claim, without that it'll be wrong every time.

When are you going to get that repeating yourself isn't going to support your argument?

Looking at their physical abilities in comparison to the jedi's, already deemed the matukai superior overall, physically.

Except most of their advantages are rather small ones, and some Jedi like Mace Windu have shown incredible physical powers themselves.

You've decided to yourself the Matukai are superior, but you're overlooking that others can engage in high-level intense physical training as well.

The high-level martial arts stuff, like moving like a whirlwind? That is something the Jedi can specifically do too. The Matukai have some advantages, but they're more on stuff like controlling the body to make it more resistant to punches and poison, not the high-level stuff.

And the Jedi Path specifically states they are only 'among' the best martial artists. The sources indicate they can be rivaled.

[qutoe]
Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)[/quote]

'Rising Whirlwind' does not require Jar-Kai, though it's often used in conjunction. I mentioned that before.

Matukai Wins again.

You have three mentions of the word 'whirlwind'. None of their descriptions actually indicate one is faster than another. From this, you decide one side wins.

You're pretty bad at arguing 🙂

For any shot at an argument:

Q99 covered anything I need to. Kudos to him for saving me the time. <3

Originally posted by Q99
No, not a contradiction. I mean, the first two are the same thing, and the Matukai training is specifically on building the most out of a weak-ish link to the force. Nor is hand to hand skill based on force connection.

... you really didn't read their wookieepedia article, did you? This was covered there.

Actually, it does. That's what burden of proof is, when you make a claim, something needs to say it's true.

And no matter how many times you make a claim, without that it'll be wrong every time.

When are you going to get that repeating yourself isn't going to support your argument?

Except most of their advantages are rather small ones, and some Jedi like Mace Windu have shown incredible physical powers themselves.

You've decided to yourself the Matukai are superior, but you're overlooking that others can engage in high-level intense physical training as well.

The high-level martial arts stuff, like moving like a whirlwind? That is something the Jedi can specifically do too. The Matukai have some advantages, but they're more on stuff like controlling the body to make it more resistant to punches and poison, not the high-level stuff.

And the Jedi Path specifically states they are only 'among' the best martial artists. The sources indicate they can be rivaled.

[qutoe]
Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)

You have three mentions of the word 'whirlwind'. None of their descriptions actually indicate one is faster than another. From this, you decide one side wins.

You're pretty bad at arguing 🙂 [/QUOTE]

No i read Wookieepedia.

I have 3 mentions of Whirlwind because of specific reasons. 1 Reason is a Virtual Whirlwind is 2x faster then a Brilliant whirlwind. A brilliant whirlwind created by Jar-Kar is just a fast form of lightsaber maneuverability, not reaching the actual speed of that of a virtual whirlwind.

I mentioned "whirlwind" blur in a Matukai adept's Hand-to-Hand case due to the fact Matukai adepts can punch, kick, and flip in such complex martial sequences, that it creates a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movements. That is something no Jedi has done, if so prove it. Since you love talking about the "burden of proof" 🙂

No you contradicted yourself by using that example of yours. You basically said Matukai Adepts reached their physical proficiency & Power using little Force power to do so. That's a contradiction against yourself, since you said previously that a Matukai Adept's physical strength and power is interconnected with the the force. Thus implied they needed to use a large degree of the force to maintain their stamina, strength and speed. This is the 13th time you contradicted yourself Congratulations! you might make a record and get a trophy on this site 😄.

Your last assumption is wrong, actually. Saying that they utilized the Force with their bodies, and used the Force to maintain those bodies, is not a contradiction at all.

Also, go take a watch of Mace beating down an entire droid army with his bare hands. Or read Mace vs Sidious, how they were a blur that was only visible due to their lightsabers.

Or Kenobi vs Grevious, where he was blocking 20 strikes per second .

Or how many Jedi fighting are not even visible.

I can see a whirlwind. That's easy. Normal humans do that. A blur is what is impressive. Guess what? Matukai don't get that feat.

No matter what you say, you can't prove they are the second most powerful, same with how you couldn't prove the Zeison Sha were the most powerful. You hear about a specialization, then you assume that since one other character who was god-like in their own time could do it, then they can.

Originally posted by Pwned
Your last assumption is wrong, actually. Saying that they utilized the Force with their bodies, and used the Force to maintain those bodies, is not a contradiction at all.

Also, go take a watch of Mace beating down an entire droid army with his bare hands. Or read Mace vs Sidious, how they were a blur that was only visible due to their lightsabers.

Or Kenobi vs Grevious, where he was blocking 20 strikes per second .

Or how many Jedi fighting are not even visible.

I can see a whirlwind. That's easy. Normal humans do that. A blur is what is impressive. Guess what? Matukai don't get that feat.

No matter what you say, you can't prove they are the second most powerful, same with how you couldn't prove the Zeison Sha were the most powerful. You hear about a specialization, then you assume that since one other character who was god-like in their own time could do it, then they can.

Force extensions and controlled augmentation? You mean like the Matukai?

Exactly.

Btw, you should remove blurs. That's the first time you mentioned it in description of them, and they have not been given that feat by any canon source.

Originally posted by Pwned
Force extensions and controlled augmentation? You mean like the Matukai?

Exactly.

Btw, you should remove blurs. That's the first time you mentioned it in description of them, and they have not been given that feat by any canon source.

You realize that there is no difference, right? Seriously, you are trying to say they are better because they do the exact same thing,

Originally posted by Pwned
You realize that there is no difference, right? Seriously, you are trying to say they are better because they do the exact same thing,

L

O

****ing L

You are making this shit up and you know it. As I said, this thread, also, shall die. Your delusions make no sense.

Originally posted by Pwned
L

O

****ing L

You are making this shit up and you know it. As I said, this thread, also, shall die. Your delusions make no sense.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
How am i making this up!? Its a cornerstone in the Matukai philosophy to be balanced between Body and Spirit. The Matukai are a Force Tradition that use the physical body to channel the force. The Matukai's goal is to make their physical bodies just as strong as the force energy they use to channel them, (Hence the Balance between Body and Spirit) if the Matukai achieves the goal of Making their bodies become one with the Spirit, they will have full intangibility powers. That is a Fact alone. G.T.F.O with your false assumptions, since you failed to understand what the Matukai Order are about.

It's kinda cute, actually.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is no one else fascinated by this guy? He's so zealous with his lies and fabrications that it's impossible that he doesn't believe it all himself. Like his ability to differentiate his fantasies and wishes from canonical fact was removed long ago, and all that's left is a emerging teenage ego desperate to prove that the countless hours he's spent establishing this shit in his mind is valuable and true to someone else.

It's kinda cute, actually.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No. I just realized what the Matukai are attempting to achieve. Since you dumbasses are a little too slow on your perception, you accuse me of making something up when i reveal what other force orders are capable of. S.T.F.U and don't look and comment at my threads, since that's the way everyone feels.🙁