Superman Better than Goku?

Super saiyan 3 goku fighting kid buu was tearing apart the whole planet they where fighting on from mostly their energy levels and the shock waves of their blows so imagine 17 years of training then transforming to super saiyan 4 and then ascending to a much higher level of super saiyan 4 to topple Syn shenron, imagine what and ascended super saiyan 4 level fight would do. So even if Superman is still stronger we can still agree that Goku has unlimited potential and can catch up to Supes, maybe even surpass him.

"So what happens when you pit a man who has the power to break any limits, against another who has no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all."

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
"So what happens when you pit a man who has the power to break any limits, against another who has no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all."

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Come on fighting may be goku's greatest passion and it may be what he lives for but protecting innocent people and the people he cares about will always come first, hell how many times has he been prepared to sacrifice his life to save the world or universe. Goku cares about innocent life so much that even the lives of animals is as valuable as any other, seeing a bird die pushed him over the edge and turned him into a super saiyan when he was fighting Cooler, heck he even offers his greatest enemies a chance to change and a chance to live. So make no mistake fighting may be his passion but protecting innocent people who cannot defend themselves is what he has dedicated his life to, and is why he trains himself and others.

2 threats so he can fight again, 1 for mercy, 2 so others can fight them.

He's doing it in good spirits, not its not all that well thought out or for everyones well being.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Super saiyan 3 goku fighting kid buu was tearing apart the whole planet they where fighting on from mostly their energy levels and the shock waves of their blows so imagine 17 years of training then transforming to super saiyan 4 and then ascending to a much higher level of super saiyan 4 to topple Syn shenron, imagine what and ascended super saiyan 4 level fight would do. So even if Superman is still stronger we can still agree that Goku has unlimited potential and can catch up to Supes, maybe even surpass him.

DB😮 (not sure if canon, but more canon than GT as Akira was heavily involved in it), 27 years after the Buu saga Goku and Vegeta go off to have a final to-the-death battle, ends with scientists detecting a supernova. So in this, those two at their max were suicidally at a Star to Solar System level.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if Goku could ever be stronger. Meh.

Oh, and Superman's powers keep increasing too. Superman Prime I think?

superdur

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thing is Goku protects the world like a child, understandable given how he was raised and grew up. For instances like his tenancy to let people off the hook;
-Letting Piccolo and Vegeta go so he can fight them again, even when they both swore their revenge on the planet.
-Letting DB's second biggest tyrant survive by offering up his power. The planet killing, genocidal, slave driver that enslaved and killed his race, was wiping out the peaceful namekians including kids, killed a child that was healing his friends, killed the guy that was saving his friends asses (after Vegeta's sob story), killed his best friend, heavily beat up and tried to kill his rival/friend and son, and who knows where your planet is with the means to get there and destroy it. Just for sudden mercy when he was bloodlusted a moment earlier.
-Getting Cell to full strength just to let Gohan have a go. Even though it took a death to allow Gohan to get go SS2, cost his life, King Kai, Bubbles and their planet, and only made a stronger Cell that could have possibly defeated and killed everyone.
-Not killing the universes largest threat (Buu who destroyed hundreds of planets) when he had the chance and said he could have, only so that Gohan, Goten and Trunks could have a go. Killed 1/10th of the population in their fight, ending with Buu wiping out the whole earth population minus a dozen, going on the kill and/or consume his friends and family, and then the destruction of Earth.

2 threats so he can fight again, 1 for mercy, 2 so others can fight them.

He's doing it in good spirits, not its not all that well thought out or for everyones well being.

DB😮 (not sure if canon, but more canon than GT as Akira was heavily involved in it), 27 years after the Buu saga Goku and Vegeta go off to have a final to-the-death battle, ends with scientists detecting a supernova. So in this, those two at their max were suicidally at a Star to Solar System level.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if Goku could ever be stronger. Meh.

Oh, and Superman's powers keep increasing too. Superman Prime I think?

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Goku detected good in both Piccolo and Vegeta, and Vegeta was the only other saiyan like himself left so Goku wanted to give them a chance to change, and Goku would take responsibility for what they do up to that point, and Piccolo and Vegeta became heroes like Goku hoped they would. As for Frieza it was pretty naive of Goku but he believes everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, its not that Goku forgave Frieza its just Goku didn't want to kill anyone, and when Frieza started begging for his life Goku's conscience couldn't resist giving him a helping hand to live. The battle with Frieza taught Goku that there are some people who are beyond help and that fighting them is a fight to the death because they won't ever give up even when the good guys become stronger than them they won't give up trying and won't give up their evil ways, they are too dangerous to the universe and every living soul in it. With cell Goku giving him a senzu bean was just because Goku has a strong belief in fairness and Goku had a lot of faith in Gohan, and Goku knew Gohan had a huge hidden power that would be unlocked during his battle with cell. With Goku not finishing Buu when he had the chance it is because he wanted to give Gohan, Goten and Trunks a chance to save the world, he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them, they have to learn to protect themselves, which was also naive of him because no one ever manages to fill Goku's shoes, I doubt even Goku jr will be able to.

You really didn't counter anything he said.....

And you kinda shot yourself in the foot with "he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them" cuz that's exactly what happens anyway.

EDIT: He made a bad call based on bad judgement.

Originally posted by juggerman
You really didn't counter anything he said.....

And you kinda shot yourself in the foot with "[b]he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them" cuz that's exactly what happens anyway.

EDIT: He made a bad call based on bad judgement. [/B]

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Someone has to take over from Goku because Goku isn't immortal, its not Goku's fault that the people with that potential don't have anything like Goku's drive or training ethic. Goku had to come back to life because Gohan messed up again like he did with cell, he spent that much time playing around that he allowed the villain to turn the tables on him, you'd think Gohan would have learned his lesson from last time when fighting like that cost him his fathers life, but he did it again and it cost him his little brother, Trunks and Piccolo. And Majuub Goku's so called protege couldn't even win his first fight and was reduced to nothing when super 17 showed up. So Goku still has to keep trying, its just no one seems to have the qualities that makes Goku the universe's hero and champion. The point I was arguing was that you can't really knock any of Goku's decisions, even the naive ones are done out of faith, mercy, righteousness and thinking ahead.

And Goku makes the same mistake he made with Cell. "Oh this villian can be defeated easily but instead of that let's draw it out as much as possible so more people die!!!!" He allowed Cell to power up so Gohan could fight him, which ended in death and he allowed Buu to live so the kids could fight him which ended in much more death

Originally posted by juggerman
And Goku makes the same mistake he made with Cell. "Oh this villian can be defeated easily but instead of that let's draw it out as much as possible so more people die!!!!" He allowed Cell to power up so Gohan could fight him, which ended in death and he allowed Buu to live so the kids could fight him which ended in much more death

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
What mistake with cell, Goku knew there was no way he could beat cell but he knew Gohan had the power inside him to do it, and even if Goku hadn't given cell the senzu bean and Gohan starts beating cell, cell would still try self destructing and then come back as super perfect cell and Gohan wouldn't have the super saiyan 2 form to stop him and the universe would be doomed. And with buu there was always going to be a lot of casualties but that was the point of Goku's plan with the dragon balls to undo all the damage. Besides Goku said himself that it may have been impossible for him to win because buu was getting stronger and he was getting weaker, at least with Goku's plan there was a sure fire way to beat buu, besides there was alot more at stake than just the earth the universe too was at stake, Goku couldn't afford to gamble it all on a maybe he could win.

Sorry i didn't clarify. I meant healing Cell. That was stupid. Cell would have still pissed Gohan off enough to go SSJ2 once he heard about his rage.

There wasn't a sure fire way to beat Buu since Goku's plan went to hell as soon as Buu transformed. Once that happened no even SSJ3 Gotenks(who is superior to SSJ3 Goku by no small amount) stood no chance. Goku admitted later that he could have killed Majin Buu, and effectively saved billions of lives including his entire family, but simply chose no to. Then later he admits once again he could have kill Kid Buu but again chose not to which again put countless lives in danger once again.

Then to top it all off had Buu killed Dende and Hercule they would have lost, and Buu would have countinued his killing spree. He had no control over who Buu spared and got lucky the people he needed later happened to be alive.

Originally posted by juggerman
Sorry i didn't clarify. I meant healing Cell. That was stupid. Cell would have still pissed Gohan off enough to go SSJ2 once he heard about his rage.

There wasn't a sure fire way to beat Buu since Goku's plan went to hell as soon as Buu transformed. Once that happened no even SSJ3 Gotenks(who is superior to SSJ3 Goku by no small amount) stood no chance. Goku admitted later that he could have killed Majin Buu, and effectively saved billions of lives including his entire family, but simply chose no to. Then later he admits once again he could have kill Kid Buu but again chose not to which again put countless lives in danger once again.

Then to top it all off had Buu killed Dende and Hercule they would have lost, and Buu would have countinued his killing spree. He had no control over who Buu spared and got lucky the people he needed later happened to be alive.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
So either decision Goku made with healing or not healing cell the result would have been the same and Goku knew it, and the decision with buu was made before Goku knew buu could transform, and with kid buu Goku had even less of a chance, plus it was Goku's decision to save Dende and Mr Satan.

Yes but Gohan would have been fighting a much weaker Cell possibly resulting in Cell's defeat much sooner with the deaths of Goku, King Kai, Gergory, Bubbles, and Trunks. I know Cell could have possibly come back but it is much less likely it would have happened since we see a Kamehameha from a weakened Gohan was more than enough to destroy a much stornger verson of Cell completely.

Every single major threat he's faced in the recent past could transform, he was just being an idiot. He didn't even know for sure that the kids would even have enough power to kill Fat Buu. He was just guessing. And he admitted he could have killed Kid Buu had he wanted to but chose not to so Vegeta could have a turn. Giving Vegeta the first go would have solved that issue completely.

He saved them from the explosion but he had no clue they would be left alive in the first place. Had Buu killed them along with everyone else, or blew up the Earth upon leaving the Time Chamber, he would have been SOL. He got lucky events played out in that particular way, Otherwise he would have been killed.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes but Gohan would have been fighting a much weaker Cell possibly resulting in Cell's defeat much sooner with the deaths of Goku, King Kai, Gergory, Bubbles, and Trunks. I know Cell could have possibly come back but it is much less likely it would have happened since we see a Kamehameha from a weakened Gohan was more than enough to destroy a much stornger verson of Cell completely.

Every single major threat he's faced in the recent past could transform, he was just being an idiot. He didn't even know for sure that the kids would even have enough power to kill Fat Buu. He was just guessing. And he admitted he could have killed Kid Buu had he wanted to but chose not to so Vegeta could have a turn. Giving Vegeta the first go would have solved that issue completely.

He saved them from the explosion but he had no clue they would be left alive in the first place. Had Buu killed them along with everyone else, or blew up the Earth upon leaving the Time Chamber, he would have been SOL. He got lucky events played out in that particular way, Otherwise he would have been killed.

yes, and what happened from that continuous dependence on the dragonball that goku had? <.<

Goku guessed that the boys would be stronger than him. All Goku knew was that Goten and Trunks were /attempting/ to fuse. Not knowing if they could as they just found out about it.

Besides that he had no idea that Gotenks would go beyond SS1, and absolutely no reason to assume they'd get to SS3 seeing as its something he himself only managed to get to with great stress.

To Goku's knowledge, assuming they could master Fusion, he'd only know them to be SS1 who is equal to SS3 Goku.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Goku detected good in both Piccolo and Vegeta, and Vegeta was the only other saiyan like himself left so Goku wanted to give them a chance to change, and Goku would take responsibility for what they do up to that point, and Piccolo and Vegeta became heroes like Goku hoped they would. As for Frieza it was pretty naive of Goku but he believes everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, its not that Goku forgave Frieza its just Goku didn't want to kill anyone, and when Frieza started begging for his life Goku's conscience couldn't resist giving him a helping hand to live. The battle with Frieza taught Goku that there are some people who are beyond help and that fighting them is a fight to the death because they won't ever give up even when the good guys become stronger than them they won't give up trying and won't give up their evil ways, they are too dangerous to the universe and every living soul in it. With cell Goku giving him a senzu bean was just because Goku has a strong belief in fairness and Goku had a lot of faith in Gohan, and Goku knew Gohan had a huge hidden power that would be unlocked during his battle with cell. With Goku not finishing Buu when he had the chance it is because he wanted to give Gohan, Goten and Trunks a chance to save the world, he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them, they have to learn to protect themselves, which was also naive of him because no one ever manages to fill Goku's shoes, I doubt even Goku jr will be able to.

Goku has already killed common bad guys before, someone like Freeza should be no question. Like not holding back with the spirit bomb.

As Juggerman said, he made a bad move because of his own idea and at the worst possible times. Against foes that don't care for life and will destroy planets on whims.

No one is saying that goku isn't a good guy, he is. He's also an idiot though.

Piccolo, Vegeta, ok sure, Goku's intuition did him good. Saving Frieza though was phucking retarded on his part. Having Gohan fight cell is understandable to a point, giving Cell a senzu is not. Same with not killing fat buu and instead leaving the fate of earth in the hands of some kids who may or may not achieve what he hopes they will.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku guessed that the boys would be stronger than him. All Goku knew was that Goten and Trunks were /attempting/ to fuse. Not knowing if they could as they just found out about it.

Besides that he had no idea that Gotenks would go beyond SS1, and absolutely no reason to assume they'd get to SS3 seeing as its something he himself only managed to get to with great stress.

To Goku's knowledge, assuming they could master Fusion, he'd only know them to be SS1 who is equal to SS3 Goku.

Goku said nothing about seeing good in them, and iirc had no idea that he was the last of his kind.

Goku has already killed common bad guys before, someone like Freeza should be no question. Like not holding back with the spirit bomb.

As Juggerman said, he made a bad move because of his own idea and at the worst possible times. Against foes that don't care for life and will destroy planets on whims.

And how many times do I have to say it, Goku put his faith in his kids and Trunks because he can't do everything for them forever, he needs to ready the next generation and there's no better way than experience on the battle field. What would happen if Goku is dead and can't come back when a new villain appears and there not ready to handle it themselves, I'll tell you everyone would die, the planet would be destroyed and then the rest of the universe would be wiped out. And look what his decision to not beat Fat Buu created, it created the fusion idea which created Gotenks, Gogeta and Vegito, ultimate Gohan and the restored faith in the spirit bomb. Plus it created Uub and then Majuub who helped save everyone's bacon against baby, so that one decision to not kill Fat Buu himself had quite the domino affect for saving them in the future, it also gave reason for Goku to come back to life in the first place to save them from Buu, Hirudagarn and then the new Bills god of destruction, and then to become super saiyan 4 and beat baby, super 17 and the shadow dragons. So imagine what would have happened if Goku hadn't made that decision, the next villain would have won and would continue to destroy the universe. Any way does anyone else feel we've strayed off the point of this thread to argue about Goku AGAIN?