This idea that's going around that if someone would prefer to take their opponent alive, then they must be substantially holding back is completely absurd and has no basis at all in SW. That's how all Jedi fight anyway.
Anakin wasn't relentlessly going for the kill. When he decided to win he went for Dooku's hands simultaneously with his will (according to the novel). Because he decided to "win" not "kill."
So to try and argue that Sidious's or Maul's performance was reduced because of their preference to take their opponent alive is frankly grasping at straws in an attempt to undermine their opponents combat feats.
And for the last time Filoni has categorically confirmed (more than once) that Obi-Wan defeated Maul and Opress. The only "circumstance" mentioned was Obi-Wan having 2 Sabers and being fully focused for the fight. Heck he outright states that the reason he was able to do so is because "he's a very skilled swordsman." More evidence that Sabers and Force contests should be distinguished between considering Maul force blasted him. And there was certainly nothing in Filoni's comments even hinting towards Maul or Opress holding back.
And he already proved himself before that "circumstantial fight" to easily be Maul's equal in a fencing combat (he actually seemed superior at the end).
I love how Filoni's statements are being chosen very selectively to support views that he's never stated or even directed towards.
SIDIOUS_66
Clearly, you are the only one butt-hurt. Why else are you insulting someone who hasn't even said two words to you in weeks?
It's remarkable the lengths that people will go to interact with someone clearly disinterested in their very existence. I'm used to inciting this obsessive behavior in others, of course, but there's no doubt he's being more than a little creepy. 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's remarkable the lengths that people will go to interact with someone clearly disinterested in their very existence. I'm used to inciting this obsessive behavior in others, of course, but there's no doubt he's being more than a little creepy. 😬
👆
I seriously can't believe how they keep arguing after what you posted.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
👆I seriously can't believe how they keep arguing after what you posted.
Proof would be nice. Like what we've been providing. Instead of one sided speculation and quotes which are irrelevant to the debate being presented as apparent proof.
Whilst the more relevant quotes and evidences are being purposefully ignored.
Not one of you here has given a good explanation as to why Sidious laughing means he's holding back, when he was laughing at frigging Yoda whilst in combat with him.
Not one of you has been able to give a good explanation for why Sidious resorted to using his Force powers to Knock out Maul so he could defeat the brothers one on one, if the Lightsaber battle against both brothers was so easy for him.
Frankly the arguments against there being any kind of parity in the Lightsaber battle have reached new levels of grasping for straws.
Let's be real here: Tempest is by no means my favorite poster on this board, but facts are facts and he put the final nail in a coffin that was already on its way to be sealed in carbonite.
The Zabrak's at no point had the upper hand in the battle, never had any chance of winning, and had he chosen to, Sidious could have crushed them without so much as the effort of igniting his sabers. They were completely at his mercy when pinned to the glass and he could have snapped their necks, stopped their hearts, or any of a number of other quick deaths.
Clearly Sidious wanted to relish Savage's death and Maul's grief, and he handled them accordingly.
Originally posted by Arhael
Superhuman was only Opress because of his strength but no matter what strength you posess, your brain doesn't get any harder. Battle armor wore only Opress but it doesn't protect head and such impact will blow wind out of anyone regardless.
Daze effect cannot be seen because Sidious pins them but second Force push knoked Maul unconsious, so brothers are not as durable as you claim they are.
And you can keep your head in your ass. 😉
As Tempest pointed out, Maul also took a hit that cracked the wall behind him and got up again. And they didn't hit their heads. You can clearly see that the glass behind tehir heads is not cracked. 😉
There's nothing indicating they were dazed, so your theory is nothing idle speculation. There is evidence they were able to resist though. Thanks for playing.
Originally posted by Arhael
But I do care because it is solid proof that you are lier.The fact is that people [b]cannot
disintegrate and vaporise opponents with their Force attacks in main canon as well as most EU material no matter how much you ***** about it. Its canon with various Force portrayal. Deal with it.[/b]
No it isn't. I was going off of what Wookieepedia says. That I'm having trouble finding the sources it lists is not the same as me lying.
That isn't a fact. They can't do it in most of that material because the individuals portrayed in said material isn't powerful enough or destructive enough to do it, simple as that. Theres plenty of examples of it happening. Aleema Keto turns a man into a charred husk in the Exar Kun comics. Sidious turns a Sith Worm to ash in Sithisis and 3 darkside acolytes in smoking bones in Resurrection. Bane disintegrates multiple opponents in ROT. Galen Marek disintegrates a frigate in the FU II novel. Plagueis all but atomises multiple assassins in his book. Vitiate disintegrates T4-M3 in Revan and Nyriss' lightning vaporises herself in the same book. All these examples off the top of my head, and you want to just dismiss them? I have nothing but contempt for you. Higher canon only overrides other canonical events when there is an explicit contradiction. There is no contradiction here. You are grasping at straws. It's pathetic.
Originally posted by Arhael
No it is clear indication of how inferior those Jedi are.And no, Filoni's statements support exactly opposit.
First, never wavering from superiority and ass-kicking is impossible, if characters hold back. Whenever can you remember holding back character kicking anyone's ass? On opposite the one that holds back tends to get ass kicked.
Second, official website describes Sidious as "wirlwind of destruction" and nowhere AT ALL it mentions him holding back.
Third, Filoni outright stated that Opress alone performed better than council members.
Man, you're just going to make me re-post all these arguments again, aren't you?
No, his statements support our argument. Tempest has posted them nice and clearly on the last page, a few posts above yours. Go read them again and then slap yourself for being such a stupid sack of shit. jk???
I've seen tons of characters kick their opponents ass while holding back. You don't need to unleash your full powers to whoop someone.
Sidious being a whirlwind of destruction doesn't mean anything about him holding back. It's a colorful description, and as you've pointed out, destruction can also mean to render someone unable to fight. 😉
Because Sidious allowed him to.
Originally posted by Arhael
Because Sidious lightsaber did not pass through Opress' defence until he managed to kick him in the face. Kenobi used the same tactic with kicks on him.Sidious simply kept distance like Dooku did, that doesn't prove that either character could blitz him. Ventress dodged Opress attacks with no lightsaber, doesn't mean that she could blitz him. Kenobi and Dooku dodged Ventress with no lightsaber, doesn't mean they could blitz her.
That doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that Savages defense is sloppy. Sidious was clearly and obviously toying with him. As I pointed out, Sidious could have defeated him at any point with the Force, but chose not to. Fact. Why is it so different to believe that with a lightsaber?
None of those other examples were done in the same playful manner as Sidious did. They guy deactivated his lightsabers and casually swayed out of the way of Savage's attacks. How anyone can look at that and think that Savage stood the slightest chance is beyond me.
Originally posted by Arhael
Maul would watch it regardles, wouldn't he? And Sidious didn't force Maul to watch, he knocked him unconscious, Maul just happened to wake up, when Sidious
did killing blow.
If they were still engaged Maul wouldn't have been able to mourn like he did without fear of Sidious killing him. Only by separating them could Maul appreciate the pain appropriately. And since Sidious was clearly toying with Savage and stretching their fight out whose to say Sidious didn't time it so that he killed Savage only when Maul was awake?
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, there are examples where concentration and performance of Force users increases. Windu's performance against Sidious increased for example.By the way it doesn't actually say that his speed is increasing. It merely says that Maul lost count of how many attacks he defended against, which implies that he held his own for some time, not that speed increased.
No, that was due to Vaapad, not because Mace was just concentrating.
'Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.'
If you can't tell that's describing Sidious increasing in speed then you are illiterate and have no right to be debating on a EU board.
Originally posted by Arhael
You have a point here. But joy is another emotion that incredibly boosts performance, see my previous post about Windu and Ganner. Also, Sidious is not seeing enjoying himself as he fights Maul.
Nice of you to concede.
Originally posted by Arhael
Are you sure that "quicker" is refered to movement speed? It could mean that his reflexes got faster. In fact his reflexes are praised, not speed.
Yes, I'm sure. You wouldn't say someone was quicker if they had faster reflexes. That wouldn't make you quicker, only be able to respond faster to stuff.
Originally posted by Arhael
Chillax. Kenobi did not demonstrate speed advantage against Jango Fett. TCW Mandalor fought Kenobi, Ashoka and Maul. And all three did not demonstrate speed advantage. And there are many examples in EU. Force users still have significant advantage from anticipation though but as evidenced by multiple sources non-sensitives can match even Luke's speed.I never said Force speed doesn't exist. In TPM Kenobi and Qui-Gon used it to run away from droidekas. It allowes to run faster and jump higher.
Force Speed exists you dolt. There are many example of characters fighting faster than humans possible.
Originally posted by Arhael
Your absurd subjectivity doesn't explain why he takes much longer time to stop small pillar than moving two god knows how bigger ships at such incredible speed that those ships got completely destroyed.Luke to restrain just a B-Wing from maneuvering was putting so much effort that his skin began to "nettle". Nowhere as impressive as Yoda's CW feat. Just curious what subjective explanation you will give to this case. 😆
I genuenly thank you for giving info about Yoda's TK limits, which proves my point that his CW Mini feat is ridiculous exageration.
It does actually. I suggest you read through more slowly and carefully so you don't miss anything else in the future.
Probably because in that case he has to work against the propulsion of the B-Wing, which exerts a hell of a lot of force. Whereas the capitol ships were levitating and moving very slowly.
No dice. This was in a description of training done while in deep meditation. Yoda wouldn't have been actually exerting himself to his full capabilities. Nice of you to concede the point though.
Originally posted by ares834
Because it's coming in to grab him. Had it already been mucking around in the engines it would already be there. If not already grabbing Jacen's ship already well within grasping distance.
Anyway, the next passage shows us that Jacen's defenses are no match for Luke's force powers when he smashes Jacen forward.
It couldn't be TK because Luke was withdrawing from the Force.
After Luke finally stopped withdrawing, this happened:
"Try-ahh." Caedus struggled to correct the StealthX as the damaged starboard wing cannon broke away. The escaping vapor was speckled with round droplets now. "Did you do that?
It can"t be TK either because Jacen didn't feel Luke using Force. And after he assumed that it is TK. Jacen is simply fooled like he was fooled with illusions because he didn't know about presence of other Jedi.
I don't get why it's hard to accept that their TK prowess is close. They are not only the same blood line, feat where they held b-wing in place clearly showes that.
When Luke strains his capabilities, his body ages:
During the past year, he and Jacen had been working on overload techniques, so he knew could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse.
When Luke holded B-Wing, his skin started to "nettle", which implies that he
strained his capabilities. And Jacen replicated this feat. The evidence can't be more obvious than this.
And even, if it was TK slamming Jacen's ship as he assumed. It equally could be combined effort of Luke and other Jedi.
PIS, CIS, LUke not thinking straight at the time, etc...
Opress disarmed Dooku by virtue of superior strength, not lightsaber prowess.
When Anakin defeated Dooku, the ROTS text notes that "even [Dooku's] command of the Force had become a joke."
Quote says "knowledge", not command:
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
In any case this passage means that Anakin simply doesn't care, not that his knowledge is suddenly greater, than Dooku's.
Which owes more to Anakin's shaky mindset than Obi-Wan's skill. We know from other sources that Skywalker was the superior warrior.
The situation with the Zabraks has already been proven to be one of circumstance, contingent on Adi Gallia's death galvanizing Kenobi further and the Zabraks seeking to keep Maul alive.
I'm sorry you don't like the Encyclopedia's judgment. 😬You'll get over it.
...He screamed "now you die!" before he engaged Luke. facepalmThat doesn't prove Luke "did not intend to kill Palpatine." I'm not sure if you read the entirety of Dark Empire, but the entire plot revolves around Luke's desperation to kill him. The fact that he's willing take him alive when disarmed is just that. Now, if you had some additional evidence to suggest Luke held back against Sidious (like smiles, grins, not using obvious advantages).
Moreover, he intended to kill Opress, which by your logic means that he had no reason to hold back at trying to kill Opress through out entire saber fight.
And whatta hell? Luke was trying desperately to kill Sidious only when on darkside. At the end it was Sidious who attacked him.
And why holding back Luke would smile and grin??? He is Jedi, they project calm.
Also, when DP provided quote that Maul is a rival to be destroyed, you said he is wrong because of Sidious statement at the end. But now as I provided the same thing with Luke, you say it means nothing. So, why are you using double standards? Didn't expect that from you.
lol no^ This is prior to Dooku's disarming and death. Anakin visibly hesitated with Dooku at his mercy because killing an unarmed prisoner is in direct defiance of the Jedi code. But as SIDIOUS_66 pointed out, Jedi are perfectly willing to kill in combat (cf. Jango Fett vs. Mace Windu) and Anakin was more than willing to do so here.
Windu, relishing the fight or not, maintained grim composure during his duels; he did not toy with his adversaries as Sidious did.
By your logic Sidious toyed Yoda as well. In their saber fight he laughs and grins. In their Force fight he laughs like a maniac. In final lightning contest as he presses early adantage he grins. It can't be more obvious that it is in his nature to laugh and grin during fight.
Ganner Rhysode was "effortlessly" slaughtering the Vong, per the text you provided, which further proves my point: he wasn't struggling. Of course, it was also a suicide mission, Ganner was serving as a distraction for Anakin and Vergere. That adequately explains his joy; he wasn't fighting for his life either, he knew he was going to die.
Fact: Ganner was slaughtering them effortlessly because he DID NOT hold back. He enjoyed himself and DID NOT HOLD back at the same time.
Fact: Sidious was reluctant to fight Yoda and wanted to run away, yet, he grins and laughs during saber fight with him.
Can't you get it? Sidious enjoying fight doesn't mean he held back. In fact, if he held back on sabers, he wouldn't be in position of superiority on first place.
Fact: Ganner gave his best performance ever when he enjoyed himself. Same goes for Sidious. When he fought brothers, Yoda and darkside Luke, he enjoyed himself and he won fight. When he fought Windu and lightside Luke, he was serious and lost. It consistently shows that joyful Palpatine > serious Palpatine.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The Zabrak's at no point had the upper hand in the battle,
never had any chance of winning,
No one's claiming they did.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
and had he chosen to, Sidious could have crushed them without so much as the effort of igniting his sabers. They were completely at his mercy when pinned to the glass and he could have snapped their necks, stopped their hearts, or any of a number of other quick deaths.
Your just assuming he could have done any of those things. I'm not convinced. The facts are that the Official site has stated that Sidious saw Maul as "a rival to be destroyed" as he attacked. He slammed them against the wall completely by surprise and then pressed the force on them.
Just because he decided to stop and engage them in Sabers instead of pressing his force attack doesn't mean he was holding back. There was absolutely no reason for him not to at least snap Opress's neck then and there if it was that simple.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Clearly Sidious wanted to relish Savage's death and Maul's grief, and he handled them accordingly.
From what your claiming he could have done that by just continuously throwing them around with the force and have Maul watch as he simply snaps Opress's neck.
The fact that Filoni specifically states that Opress performed better against Sidious than the Jedi Council proves that as far as the show's Director is aware there was no holding back (in the Saber fight at least). Otherwise he wouldn't have made that comparision if Sidious was holding back as it would have been a completely moot comparison.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThe fact that Filoni specifically states that Opress performed better against Sidious than the Jedi Council proves that as far as the show's Director is aware there was no holding back (in the Saber fight at least). Otherwise he wouldn't have made that comparision if Sidious was holding back as it would have been a completely moot comparison.
What would give a Sith more to feed off of: tossing them around like ragdolls, or engaging them in sabers, letting them think they have a chance of victory, drawing off of their anger as they attack, and then letting one brother watch as the other dies of his wounds?
Accordingly, Sidious then begins toying with Maul via his lightning.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
What would give a Sith more to feed off of: tossing them around like ragdolls, or engaging them in sabers, letting them think they have a chance of victory, drawing off of their anger as they attack, and then letting one brother watch as the other dies of his wounds?Accordingly, Sidious then begins toying with Maul via his lightning.
You see all I see here is speculation and nothing concrete.
But on the other side we have concrete evidence from Filoni that Opress's preformace was far better than the Jedi Council's. So clearly the Director of the show is unaware of any such holding back and toying around otherwise he wouldn't have made that comparison.
And the quotes on the official site pretty much indicate there was no toying at all.
It's just a made up theory on this board which began from some particularly biased Sidious fans. They should be happy with the fight and tooling that was given and not try so desperately to make it into something more if they want to be taken seriously as noteworthy debaters on these boards.
I can already see them really annoying a couple of people who they usually get along with. Simply because it's very frustrating trying to argue against baseless theories whom the debater is determined to present as "factual."
Edit- And the lightning was to tortutre him into submission AFTER he was defeated. Sidious isn't just going to say, Ok I have a reason to let you live See Ya Later.
Originally posted by Arhael
And? Every fight involves circumstances. Yoda's fight involved far worse circumstances. Nearly all Jedi died, Republic toppled and all because of one person - Sidious. Does it mean we dismiss Yoda's feat of fighting Sidious? No.
LOL Yeah if Kenobi's feat doesn't count because of the "special circumstance" of Adi Gallia dying then what about Mace Windu's feat against the Emperor who witnessed 3 of his Council members killed.
Or yes even Yoda's fight against Sidious when most the Jedi Order had been murdered.
Both Mace and Yoda gave optimal focus to their fights and fought to the best of their abilities. As did Obi-Wan against Maul and Opress.
So his feat is no less valid than Windu's or Yoda's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Edit- And the lightning was to tortutre him into submission AFTER he was defeated. Sidious isn't just going to say, Ok I have a reason to let you live See Ya Later.
The lighting was to savor his pain as well without question. He gives his signature laugh of delight before really setting in with the lightning. He enjoyed every moment of crushing the brothers. Filoni himself wrote that Palpatine was in control the entire time, and one with the upper hand enjoys such a position when he is Sith.
Every...single...argument...that...you...have...made...has...been...destroyed.
You have lost. I think I'm going to have to take a rest because you and Arhael are both clearly "devoid of reality".