Maul Brothers vs. Bane

It. Wasn't. Close. Apparently, you have completely ignored what I and Neph have said in the previous page.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, but it's pretty obvious he was struggling in the Saber portion of the fight, and needed to resort to his superior force powers to handle their combined strength.

No, he didn't need to. He handled both in the sabers department, and he would've won anyway even had he not used the Force at any point during the fight. Sidious is just that much more powerful than both of them.

Anyway he didn't just last 25 seconds. He was fighting Sidious on equal terms for 25 seconds and even had him on his knees at one point. Oh and there was no smiling or laughing in that fight until Maul was disarmed.

Enough with the 'had him on his knees'. He had him on his knees for about two seconds before Sidious completely overwhelmed him and left him begging for mercy before he even used lightning on him.

You're arguing Maul gave Sidious a hard time in the sabers department. Really? Take Opress out of the way from the very beginning. How do you think Maul would fare alone against Sidious, even without him using the Force?

Filoni's quotes refer to the fight, which was almost purely saber combat. The scene was made to demonstrate Sidious' vast superiority in every department over the brothers. That's the whole point of the scene. Yet you argue how Sidious had a hard time against Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which means it wasn't easy for him to keep his attention on both.

Yeah, I know, which is why, after their fall, they were overwhelming Sidious defenses with kicks, punches and such. I mean, he wasn't able to evade their attacks casually or anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, but it's pretty obvious he was struggling in the Saber portion of the fight

Yes, hence the gasp after putting Savage on his ass. Oh, wait, that didn't happen, Sidious never put Savage on his ass, because they were just too much for him, and his defenses were too overloaded for him to land any hits of his own, right?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Funny because your the one who spent pages arguing any fully trained Sith Lord can use their full rage any time.

Full rage? Quote me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway he didn't just last 25 seconds. He was fighting Sidious on equal terms for 25 seconds and even had him on his knees at one point. Oh and there was no smiling or laughing in that fight until Maul was disarmed.

25 seconds? Oh, excuse me. Gosh he was so uber to last that long against someone who wasn't even trying to kill him. And he is also so strong that he had Sidious on one knee before their sabers even made contact. Damn, Maul is talented, how did he do that? It's also not like Sidious ripped Maul's sabers from his hands through sheer strength, in seconds or anything.

I'd also like to point out that Sidious dropped to his knees before their blades even touched. He chose to meet Maul blade from below and put himself in that position. DP acting as if Maul forced him to his knees is hilariously blind to reality, especially given that Sidious swiftly overpowered him even from that weaker position.

He'll never see the truth.

Does Bane have his Armor? And does he have 2 lightsabers?

Originally posted by Arhael
It is common internal damage, when something hits vechicle. Strange you couldn't figure it out yourself.

Except nothing hit him. Theres no indication to the rest of the ship shaking and if there was the text earlier notes that 'StealthXs had traded shielding for sensor negation; they still had pretty tough skins in collisions, but hitting another vessel at these speeds normally tore off parts and ended unhappily.' A collision wouldn't have only done internal damage. If they hit him hard enough to shear his chair off, the whole ship would go too.

Everything indicates that it was Luke using the Force on him. Look at how its presented:

'"Try-ahh." Caedus struggled to correct the StealthX as the damaged starboard wing cannon broke away. The escaping vapor was speckled with round droplets now. "Did you do that?"

Chunkk. The port cannon ripped free.'

How could Luke have ripped his cannon's off if he was just gripping him? And with such obvious timing in response to Jacen's question? Or when Jacens seat shears off only when he starts trying to block Luke with the Force? It isn't a freaking coincidence. Or how about this:

'Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.'

Its coming at him you twit, not actually gabbing him. And if another StealthX was grabbing him, where does it go? Did it teleport into the aether? You didn't respond to the rest of my post.

Seriously, the idea that it was a grapple ripping apart his ship ies the stupidest thing you've ever come out with and thats saying something.

Originally posted by Arhael
Where that says that they needed to grab ship? How are they supposed to damage engine, if their are busy with holding it? It makes sence that they first would be used to damage engine and only then for grabbing.

The grammar is so bad here I honestly can't understand you.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils."

Such description applies well to some sophisticated device operating inside engine.

What device? Jacen would know if it was just a normal part of the ship. And no device would be throwing fragments into the coils, wtf?

Originally posted by Arhael
And tell me, if it is TK, then what's the point of making weak TK push, then sophisticated TK described as "looking for a dropped hydrospanner" and only then make a full blown attack, when Jacen alreadu put up Force defence? Why not just Force crash engine straight away like that command chair before Jacen has any chance to put up Force defence?

Because crushing the engine would only make it blow up. 😐

And Luke and co were trying to capture him. Luke tries to talk him into surrendering.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd also like to point out that Sidious dropped to his knees before their blades even touched. He chose to meet Maul blade from below and [b]put himself in that position. DP acting as if Maul forced him to his knees is hilariously blind to reality, especially given that Sidious swiftly overpowered him even from that weaker position. [/B]

Why the heck would he put himself in a weaker position? Especially after Maul fought so well and just kicked him. That makes no sense at all.

Freeze on that scene. He's not comfortable in that position at all and he puts considerable effort in to overpower Maul in that Saber lock.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian

No, he didn't need to. He handled both in the sabers department, and he would've won anyway even had he not used the Force at any point during the fight.

Based on what? If he could have beat them both together in the Lightsaber fight, then he should have done just that.

But instead he gasps for breath, uses his superior force powers to knock out Maul so he can finish Opress one on one.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
He'll never see the truth.

Maul did awesome in that last lightsaber fight. In fact he held his own in Sabers through the enitre fight. Deal with it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, I know, which is why, after their fall, they were overwhelming Sidious defenses with kicks, punches and such. I mean, he wasn't able to evade their attacks casually or anything.

Was he doing anything significant to Maul without his Force powers? Maul held his own in Sabers the whole fight. Opress didn't. But he was a decent add-on for Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, hence the gasp after putting Savage on his ass. Oh, wait, that didn't happen, Sidious never put Savage on his ass, because they were just too much for him, and his defenses were too overloaded for him to land any hits of his own, right?

What? He obviously got licks on Opress. Maul's the one who held his own. Opress was helping him. Together they were clearly pressing Sidious in Sabers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Full rage? Quote me.

You gonna deny this now? You kept arguing with me about it. And you said it again to Arhael just a few weeks back. Anyway I'm not denying it was a peak performance for Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
25 seconds? Oh, excuse me. Gosh he was so uber to last that long against someone who wasn't even trying to kill him. And he is also so strong that he had Sidious on one knee before their sabers even made contact. Damn, Maul is talented, how did he do that? It's also not like Sidious ripped Maul's sabers from his hands through sheer strength, in seconds or anything.

First of all you have no idea when Sidious made the decision to let him live. According to the site he started the fight with the intention of killing him.

Second let's not pretend that even if Sidious desperately wanted him alive that he wouldn't be willing to chop a few limbs off. You know the way Anakin beat Dooku, or Obi-Wan beat Anakin. Heck Mace beat Sidious without chopping anything off.

Third he didn't just last. He fought him equally.

Fourth he clearly struggled to win that Saber lock and wasted no time at all to use his superior force powers on him.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It. Wasn't. Close.

According to my play-by-play, 18 points of contact were made between both parties. Of these hits, the Zabraks achieved a combined score of two. 😬

The website’s updates are incomplete and may yet provide finality to this debate, but I believe we have more than enough to reach a reliable conclusion:

The Lawless
Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority.

The Lawless
Maul attempts to avenge his brother’s death, but he simply cannot defeat Sidious’ power. Sidious disarms his former apprentice, batters him with Force pushes, and inundates him with Sith lightning.

Dave Filoni
It’s nice to see the villain of Star Wars really kick the butt of other villains you think are powerful, which helps establish Sidious as “Oh yeah. This is why he is the Sith Lord.”

Dave Filoni
IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.
Filoni: And he’s enjoying himself while he does it.

The god of war graciously conceded this point earlier: at no point was Sidious ever fighting for his life; the truth corroborated by Filoni is that Sidious was enjoying the brawl, all cackles and grins throughout the showdown. The assertion by the opposition is that he sought to kill them; when asked, “Well, why didn’t he just do it with the Force?” they fall quiet. Is death somehow crueler when dealt by a lightsaber than by literally crushing your enemies with the power of your mind?

Arhael has argued that Sidious “views Maul as a rival to be destroyed”—but Obi-Wan’s own words in the episode establish a dichotomy between death and destruction. Indeed, Sidious ends the episode having done just that: Maul-the-rival has been destroyed, robbed of his apprentice and humbled before a greater power, his brief reign over Mandalore concluded. Nowhere does it say Sidious began the duel with the intent to kill Maul.

Attempting to segment this battle as a “lol sabers only!” or “Force only” or “all out” is tragically, irretrievably stupid. As is the case with most duels, the lightsaber and the Force are inextricably linked and utilized throughout the battle. Filoni nor the website ever qualify Sidious’s superiority as existing only in one realm of combat. The duel’s final act shows Maul, seething with rage—this is important to note, because both “Nightsisters” and “Witches of the Mist” display the ferocity and power an outmatched dark sider can wield when indulging rage—attacking a man who has no interest in ending his life. Which is to say, enraged!Maul is no match for Sidious in any respect. When Maul finally lands a blow and Sidious engages with visible seriousness, he ends the duel in a single move.

This was the very definition of a curbstomp, through and through. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd also like to point out that Sidious dropped to his knees before their blades even touched. He chose to meet Maul blade from below and [b]put himself in that position.[/B]

👆

I'd say that about wraps it up. No way you would drop to a lower, weaker position against an opponent you believe to have the upper hand on you.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'd say that about wraps it up.

👆

Barring new insight from StarWars.com, I'm taking my victory and bowing out. This discussion reached its expiration date a while back.

Man, your mom is hot.

***** ******

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to my play-by-play, 18 points of contact were made between both parties. Of these hits, the Zabraks achieved a combined score of two. 😬

The website’s updates are incomplete and may yet provide finality to this debate, but I believe we have more than enough to reach a reliable conclusion:

The god of war graciously conceded this point earlier: at [b]no point was Sidious ever fighting for his life; the truth corroborated by Filoni is that Sidious was enjoying the brawl, all cackles and grins throughout the showdown. The assertion by the opposition is that he sought to kill them; when asked, “Well, why didn’t he just do it with the Force?” they fall quiet. Is death somehow crueler when dealt by a lightsaber than by literally crushing your enemies with the power of your mind?

Arhael has argued that Sidious “views Maul as a rival to be destroyed”—but Obi-Wan’s own words in the episode establish a dichotomy between death and destruction. Indeed, Sidious ends the episode having done just that: Maul-the-rival has been destroyed, robbed of his apprentice and humbled before a greater power, his brief reign over Mandalore concluded. Nowhere does it say Sidious began the duel with the intent to kill Maul.

Attempting to segment this battle as a “lol sabers only!” or “Force only” or “all out” is tragically, irretrievably stupid. As is the case with most duels, the lightsaber and the Force are inextricably linked and utilized throughout the battle. Filoni nor the website ever qualify Sidious’s superiority as existing only in one realm of combat. The duel’s final act shows Maul, seething with rage—this is important to note, because both “Nightsisters” and “Witches of the Mist” display the ferocity and power an outmatched dark sider can wield when indulging rage—attacking a man who has no interest in ending his life. Which is to say, enraged!Maul is no match for Sidious in any respect. When Maul finally lands a blow and Sidious engages with visible seriousness, he ends the duel in a single move.

This was the very definition of a curbstomp, through and through. 👆 [/B]

👆 👆 👆

Enough said.

I'm not a superhuman alien wearing battlearmor. There is absolutely no indication that they were dazed at all. Get your head out of your ass.

Whatever. I don't even care about this point anymore. The fact is that people can disintegrate and vaporise opponents with their Force attacks no matter how much you ***** about it. Its canon. Deal with it.

The fact is that people cannot disintegrate and vaporise opponents with their Force attacks in main canon as well as most EU material no matter how much you ***** about it. Its canon with various Force portrayal. Deal with it.

Why do you not consider that evidence? Its a clear indication that Sidious was going easy on them. Which is supported by the various statements Filoni has made about how Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' and calling the fight an ass-kicking and the novels descriptions of Sidious managing to increase his speed halfway through the fight.

And no, Filoni's statements support exactly opposit.

First, never wavering from superiority and ass-kicking is impossible, if characters hold back. Whenever can you remember holding back character kicking anyone's ass? On opposite the one that holds back tends to get ass kicked.

Second, official website describes Sidious as "wirlwind of destruction" and nowhere AT ALL it mentions him holding back.

Third, Filoni outright stated that Opress alone performed better than council members.

No, it doesn't. 😬 How does it imply that? About 10 seconds before he kills him Sidious is playfully dancing around his lightsaber without his own even being activated. It's obvious that Savage's skills are far below Sidious and that he stands no chance 1-on-1. If he was utilising every skill he would have just dominated him with the Force, which he showed he can do.

Sidious simply kept distance like Dooku did, that doesn't prove that either character could blitz him. Ventress dodged Opress attacks with no lightsaber, doesn't mean that she could blitz him. Kenobi and Dooku dodged Ventress with no lightsaber, doesn't mean they could blitz her.

So he could take his time with Opress without Maul interfering? To render Maul helpless and forced to watch as he kills his brother? Sidious is a sadistic guy, both are in-character.

Don't you think you're the one assuming that Sidious was fighting at his full speed? That is an assumption as well. The difference is that we actually have evidence that Sidious was not going all out on the brothers whereas all of yours and DP's evidence is nothing but 'he didn't outspeed him so therefore he couldn't of' and twisting statements to fail to support your argument.

None of this is mentioned in the text. If this was the case then his speed would have been increasing in the first half of the duel as well, yet that's not mentioned as you said. Also, Sidious didn't need to 'steadily deepen his concentration' in his fight with the Jedi. In fact, has someone getting faster as a result of deeper concentration ever actually happened, or have you just made this entire theory up without anythingp to support it?

By the way it doesn't actually say that his speed is increasing. It merely says that Maul lost count of how many attacks he defended against, which implies that he held his own for some time, not that speed increased.

Yes it does. If he's enjoying himself he can't be angry at the same time. And thats with a specific technique. And Sidious gets less pleased in his fight with Maul, not more.

'It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. Yet even with their enhanced abilities, he wondered if they would survive the coming battle.'

'Bane never stopped, his momentum carrying him straight toward Farfalla. The Jedi Master had a moment to register the strange armor coat of hard, shiny shells he wore beneath his clothes. Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.'

And no, the text specifically says Dooku's speed was enhanced. Get over it.

Also what the **** was that about Mandalorians? Are you suggesting that Force speed.... doesn't even exist? Are you high? They ****ing well can blitz those people, its just that those caliber of combatants also have incredibly fast reflexes and speed.

I never said Force speed doesn't exist. In TPM Kenobi and Qui-Gon used it to run away from droidekas. It allowes to run faster and jump higher.

Thats subjective. He could just have trouble concentrating after his duel, he could have breathed out of relief. And it was after Yoda had engaged in a duel with Dooku, so he was likely worn out, particularly since his Ataru tires the user out quickly. And after those 20 years he is only 2 years away from dying of old age. I don't think I need to say anything else.

Luke to restrain just a B-Wing from maneuvering was putting so much effort that his skin began to "nettle". Nowhere as impressive as Yoda's CW feat. Just curious what subjective explanation you will give to this case. 😆

Yoda's words in the Jedi Path indicate otherwise. When discussing an exercise in lifting large rocks Yoda says 'Only 5 can I lift, since I've turned 700.'

Arhael has argued that Sidious “views Maul as a rival to be destroyed”—but Obi-Wan’s own words in the episode establish a dichotomy between death and destruction. I

Attempting to segment this battle as a “lol sabers only!” or “Force only” or “all out” is tragically, irretrievably stupid.

Equally I find it stupid the way you sometimes judge by source quotes like in case with Marek being no match for Sidious despite the fact that most characters including Luke are helpless, when electrocuted even by inferior opponents. But I never said how stupid your argument was and merely brought counter argument in respectful manner because attempting to belittle others for their opinions has never brought any positive result. Seriously, you need to change your attitude.

The duel’s final act shows Maul, seething with rage—this is important to note, because both “Nightsisters” and “Witches of the Mist” display the ferocity and power an outmatched dark sider can wield when indulging rage—attacking a man who has no interest in ending his life.

Barring new insight from StarWars.com, I'm taking my victory and bowing out. This discussion reached its expiration date a while back.

As example at no point Sidious in DE intended to kill Luke. Even after getting his hand chopped off he didn't want to kill Luke and started destroying ships outside instead.

Equally Luke did not intend to kill Palpatine. After disarming him he switches off his lightsaber and says:

"Now, your highness, we will escort you to the Alliance base, where you will surrender the galaxy to the New Republic." - DE audio.

And there are plenty examples where characters don't intend to kill and perform at their best. Even enraged Anakin did not intend to kill Dooku. His desicion to kill came after winning fight with persuasion from Sidious.

Joy doesn't mean that Force user holds back either, on opposite it boosts performance.

Vaapad - one of the most deadly style requires Force user to enjoy fight:
"To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side".

And of course example with Ganner Rysode, where he was joyful and arrogant:
"The man's answering laugh was deep and long and bright, full of joy and freedom.

"No. I am Ganner." He spun his shining blade in a dazzlingly complex flourish that illuminated the arch around him, making it shine like a rainbow frame for the pure, animal grace of his body. "This threshold," he announced through a happy grin, "is mine. I claim it for my own.
...
To hold the archway it is not enough to merely wound and kill, is not enough to be calm, and surgical, and grieving. To hold the archway, he must not only slaughter, but slaughter effortlessly, carelessly, laughingly.
Joyfully. To hold the archway, he must dance and whirl and leap and spin, calling out for more opponents"

Tempest, your tyranny ends, you are being deposed! 🙂

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
👆 👆 👆

Enough said.

Oh ok so we're not seperating Sabers, Force and All-Out now on these boards? Which has been the way we have discussed things all these years, because there was a clear distinction made between the 2 in the movies.

So we should forget any contests of best Saber dueslists then I guess because it's just all about All-Out's now. The details are irrelevant.

And I guess the likes of Count Dooku having blatantly far superior force powers to Anakin Skywalker should just be ignored because Anakin beat him.

And I guess we can safely say Mace Windu is simply more powerful than the Emperor. Because he beat him in a sword fight. Forget what Sidious has dispalyed with his obviously superior force powers. It's irrelevant, because Mace is simply superior and more powerful because he won. The details again are irrelevant.

Great 👆

Originally posted by Arhael

By the way it doesn't actually say that his speed is increasing. It merely says that Maul lost count of how many attacks he defended against, which implies that he held his own for some time, not that speed increased.

That part of the passage is completely non-canon anyway, because that's not how the final fight went at all. Maul didn't lose because Sidious was too fast for him or because he couldn't see where Sidious's blows were coming from. He got overpowered in the Saber lock.

They were actually completely equal in Speed and in Skill.

The fact that they're clinging to that clearly non-canon passage shows the desperation of their argument.

Arhael
Yet, he got disarmed by Opress and trashed by Anakin.

Opress disarmed Dooku by virtue of superior strength, not lightsaber prowess. When Anakin defeated Dooku, the ROTS text notes that "even [Dooku's] command of the Force had become a joke."

Arhael
Kenobi clearly is weak at Force defences, yet, when it comes to sabers, combined might of brothers is not enough to leave a scratch on him and even enraged Anakin couldn't defeat him.

Which owes more to Anakin's shaky mindset than Obi-Wan's skill. We know from other sources that Skywalker was the superior warrior.

The situation with the Zabraks has already been proven to be one of circumstance, contingent on Adi Gallia's death galvanizing Kenobi further and the Zabraks seeking to keep Maul alive.

Arhael
Equally I find it stupid the way you sometimes judge by source quotes like in case with Marek being no match for Sidious

I'm sorry you don't like the Encyclopedia's judgment. 😬

You'll get over it.

Arhael
Anakin is significantly more powerful than Kenobi.
Anakin was enraged.
Anakin tried to kill Kenobi.
Kenobi had no intention of killing Anakin.

Me
Which owes more to Anakin's shaky mindset than Obi-Wan's skill.

Arhael
As example at no point Sidious in DE intended to kill Luke. Even after getting his hand chopped off he didn't want to kill Luke and started destroying ships outside instead.

...He screamed "now you die!" before he engaged Luke. facepalm

Arhael
Equally Luke did not intend to kill Palpatine. After disarming him

That doesn't prove Luke "did not intend to kill Palpatine." I'm not sure if you read the entirety of Dark Empire, but the entire plot revolves around Luke's desperation to kill him. The fact that he's willing take him alive when disarmed is just that. Now, if you had some additional evidence to suggest Luke held back against Sidious (like smiles, grins, not using obvious advantages).

Arhael
And there are plenty examples where characters don't intend to kill and perform at their best. Even enraged Anakin did not intend to kill Dooku. His desicion to kill came after winning fight with persuasion from Sidious.

lol no

ROTS
This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind,
when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear
within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

^ This is prior to Dooku's disarming and death. Anakin visibly hesitated with Dooku at his mercy because killing an unarmed prisoner is in direct defiance of the Jedi code. But as SIDIOUS_66 pointed out, Jedi are perfectly willing to kill in combat (cf. Jango Fett vs. Mace Windu) and Anakin was more than willing to do so here.

Windu, relishing the fight or not, maintained grim composure during his duels; he did not toy with his adversaries as Sidious did. Ganner Rhysode was "effortlessly" slaughtering the Vong, per the text you provided, which further proves my point: he wasn't struggling. Of course, it was also a suicide mission, Ganner was serving as a distraction for Anakin and Vergere. That adequately explains his joy; he wasn't fighting for his life either, he knew he was going to die.

Now, this argument consists entirely of other scenarios that have been addressed. If you absolutely insist on protracting your inexorable defeat, at least be courteous enough to stay on point.