Originally posted by zopzop
If he really believed that, the very next line wouldn't be a threat to annihilate her by calling in the "Highest Powers of the Multiverse" to attack her.He NEVER threatened to enlist others to his side when dealing with Warlock with the IG. He never merely snapped his fingers and undid Erishkigal's "t|t fit" like he did with Adam with the IG.
So, yeah.
Ummm.......and who would these others be? The same abstracts who got wrecked by the IG during cosmic court? 😐
Also that snap was just to restore order during the session. You must have missed what LT said ifif he were to attempt forcibly removing the gems? That it would lay waste to that reality.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Ummm.......and who would these others be? The same abstracts who got wrecked by the IG during cosmic court? 😐
The LT didn't seek back up against the IG. Also, once the LT passed judgement against the IG, it WOULD NOT WORK. Nothing would get it working again until the LT allowed the Gems to function in unison :
Now compare this when he got a hold of the Starbrand after Erishkigal lost the bet :
He couldn't do jack to it : destroy it, absorb it's power into himself (like he did vs the Protege), or will it not to work. So he hid it in plain sight (gave it back to Kayla).
Also that snap was just to restore order during the session. You must have missed what LT said ifif he were to attempt forcibly removing the gems? That it would lay waste to that reality.
The fight with Eriskigal would have wrecked more damage on the MULTIVERSE than if he allowed her to shift the Cosmic Axis and lay waste to most of reality.
Originally posted by ODGReed's IG was only active for a brief moment, and in that time he was able to tool several Mad Celestials simultaneously. Once the link to his IGs native universe was severed, he lost all teh powa.
Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder, I don't see how you can think this.
Originally posted by ODGLike you said: apparently Doom/God found a way to create a rock so heavy that even he couldn't lift it. Doom eats paradoxes for breakfast. sneer
Anyway, Doom was in his IG's native dimension and he was overrun too.
Originally posted by zopzop
I get what you are saying Galan but I'm not so sure. We'll see how this plays out with Hickman. On panel, Captain America and the IG, he barely pushed back that other universe AND the Gems shattered as a result, that doesn't seem "all powerful" to me.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerHe had the IG as early as FF #3:
Another illustrative oversight. He still had the glove in FF#14.
In fact, it looks to me like that Reed's IG was vaporized by the energy-backlash he experienced from the UN, in FF #14:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105192/FF_14_013.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105195/FF_14_015.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105199/FF_14_017.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105202/FF_14_019.jpg.html
...So there were only 2 IGs for Doom to choose from.
^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights.
Originally posted by leonidas
a gray area imo in the sense that the ultraverse was actually owned by marvel and this was their 'tool' to bring it into the fold. so many inconsistencies in that arc make it nearly impossible to fit into the more 'mainstream' ig history. like i said earlier--the ultraverse idea has never been brought up in the what, 10 years since that initial merger? and it's not like there hasn't been the chance to do so many many times. the whole ultraverse was phased out. i'd always assumed it had been retconned, and now clearly it has been.and while i agree to a certain extent with your premise regarding its unreality and hence the "mootness" of his point, i disagree completely with the notion that the ig, by default, should, as a fictional, all-powerful artifact, not have to adhere to logic--or rather as logic dictated by the comicbook world. even comics have their internal logic. when that consistency is blatantly ignored, well, that's why we have pis. we can apply your idea (about defying logic) across the board in comics, from simple things like someone being strong enough to physically move a planet, to people traveling ftl. but at some point suspension of disbelief can no longer be upheld if we no longer believe in the internal consistency of the world marvel has created. when internal inconsistencies continue to crop up (no logical reason that i know of--apart from anthropocentrism--that the '616' ig should be more powerful than any other alternate version) then the whole thing goes to hell.
imo all hickman did was simply reinforce an idea i thought was self-evident (the retcon of the whole malibu fiasco). the ig was never shown to be effective in alternate multiverses aside from our own, so i don't really see anything he did as being impactful (retroactively or presently) on the ig at all.
Comicbook logic is what the writer dictates it to be. Starlin originally perceived the gems representing the core might of the entiy who originally spawned the gems. Then Hickman came along, and found the idea of the Infinity Gems somehow being unique illogical, and decided to borrow the notion of them being restricted to their native universes from JLA/Avengers.
Nope. The Malibu retcon wasn't self-evident. The IG was definitely a trans-universal power at the very least in Marvel canon, before Hickman came along and retconned the crap out of it. Plus, I never said that the IG was effective in alternate multiverses either.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerYeah, I saw that a few days ago. Gotta love Hickman-- the dude brings common sense to the table. 👆
@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:
Originally posted by TheGodKillerTo be fair, Reed's IG wasn't operational when the UN-backlash destroyed it. Had they been in that IGs native universe, the UN *may* not have destroyed it.
^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights.I fail to see how Marvel owning Malibu comics at that point somehow invalidates, or to put it in better terms, adds ambiguity to the fact that the IG functioned in another, completely separate reality, which was in all likelihood located outside of the prime Multiverse. Pre-Hickman, nothing suggests that the storyline in that arc was retconned.
i'll disagree with you there. to me no mention of the event, and bios that indicate there is still 'mystery' around nemesis/gems:
The origin of entity known as Nemesis is covered in mystery. It has led us to believe that it was once the Infinity Gems in its humanoid sentient form. At some stage of its development it became tired of its existence, and willed itself to shatter into what was thought to be six gems....
was enough to indicate to me that marvel no longer supported the notion of the IB being responsible for the gems or the creation of the.....whatever term you want to use. of course, my opinion carried precisely.....no weight. 😂 i simply wouldn't spend time debating the IB or nemesis as i believed the idea had been retconned and would eventually be officially so. in any event, guess we'll just agree to disagree on that score. do you see this as now being an official retcon of the ultraverse storyline?
as far as for why i think the real life purchase mattered--i guess i'll just invoke that most dreaded of terms and label the use of the gems to bring malibu into the marvel fold as PIS--a term i try and avoid like the plague..... :😘: i just can't imagine for a second the gems would have worked there had they not been a simple, convenient plot device. again, just my opinion.
Comicbook logic is what the writer dictates it to be. Starlin originally perceived the gems representing the core might of the entiy who originally spawned the gems. Then Hickman came along, and found the idea of the Infinity Gems somehow being unique illogical, and decided to borrow the notion of them being restricted to their native universes from JLA/Avengers.
hmm, i'll respectfully disagree again, most definitively with your first sentence. the writer doesn't exist in a vacuum--though i believe starlin at times FEELS and even acts as if he does. the logic he 'dictates' must be supported by the world in which he is working or the whole thing fails. not sure the notion came from jla/avengers though. as soon as the first what if came out with a new IG things got wonky imo and pretty much untenable.
Nope. The Malibu retcon wasn't self-evident.
not iyo. 🙂
The IG was definitely a trans-universal power at the very least in Marvel canon, before Hickman came along and retconned the crap out of it.
absolutely, and i STILL think it's transuniversal--iow i'm pretty sure it is still MULTIVERSAL. until such time as i see a wielder step into asgard and NOT be able to blink odin out of existence, i'll say it's multiversal. if the ig owner stepped into mephisto's hell, or dormmy's dark dimension or any of the other dimensions that seem to make-up the prime multiverse, and FAILED to utterly pwn whoever called that place home, THEN i'd concede that it has indeed been relegated to affecting ONLY the little universe where our heroes dwell. tbh i don't see that being the case though....
Plus, I never said that the IG was effective in alternate multiverses either. [/B]
i....never said you did i don't think....? 😕
if i did, it wasn't my intent to imply as much.
Originally posted by zopzopWho knows who they are, maybe Scathan would make another appearance. The point is, he threatened her with a posse and she just laughed in his face.
The LT didn't seek back up against the IG. Also, once the LT passed judgement against the IG, it WOULD NOT WORK. Nothing would get it working again until the LT allowed the Gems to function in unison :
Now compare this when he got a hold of the Starbrand after Erishkigal lost the bet :
He couldn't do jack to it : destroy it, absorb it's power into himself (like he did vs the Protege), or will it not to work. So he hid it in plain sight (gave it back to Kayla).
Yes, THAT reality.
The fight with Eriskigal would have wrecked more damage on the MULTIVERSE than if he allowed her to shift the Cosmic Axis and lay waste to most of reality. [/B]
You can't be serious and believe he was referring to Scathan who only has one pis appearance to his credit? Let me guess, LT was also going to seek out the Amulet like he did against Protege. 😂
And yeah he couldn't do jack except seal it off in another dimension when Kayla had it, basically rendering it ineffective.
Big deal about wrecking the multiverse. The 616 IG is second to LT in THAT respective universe and the Starboard would fail against it.
@ galan
The explanation that Cap failed and the gems didn't is a much better perspective. Thanks for that lil tid bit. 👆
Originally posted by Sundipped
You can't be serious and believe he was referring to Scathan who only has one pis appearance to his credit? Let me guess, LT was also going to seek out the Amulet like he did against Protege. 😂And yeah he couldn't do jack except seal it off in another dimension when Kayla had it, basically rendering it ineffective.
Big deal about wrecking the multiverse. The 616 IG is second to LT in THAT respective universe and the Starboard would fail against it
Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.
Originally posted by zopzop
Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.
LT's such a dick.
"Once only" my ass. He could have easily arranged for Quasar, and only Quasar, to come and go as he pleased. Big G proved you could do selective barriers, creating one that "only" affected Surfer, and LT's a lot more omnipotent..
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThe infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.
Then Hickman came along, and found the idea of the Infinity Gems somehow being unique illogical, and decided to borrow the notion of them being restricted to their native universes from JLA/Avengers.
Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)
...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...
My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.
Originally posted by Galan007
The infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...
My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.
In fact, it was that very first alt reality showing of an IG, featuring Thanos and Maelstrom throwing down, that led to the Star Brand finding its way into 616 reality! 💃
Originally posted by leonidas
as soon as the first what if came out with a new IG things got wonky imo and pretty much untenable.
and wonky=
Originally posted by Galan007
The infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...
My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.
👆
Originally posted by zopzop
It was stated in Chaos War that CK destroyed 98.75% of the multiverse. I remember that you were arguing that they used the word universe too.But here is the proof that it was the multiverse :
There was a discussion a while back as to whether CK really destroyed the majority of the multiverse or if it was just a unvierse, because the word universe was used once or twice (instead of multiverse) to describe what was destroyed and restored.
rotiart was on "team universe".
first this agrees that what happened in chaos war is trivial in relationship to whats going on with Scrier and Other.... it actually does NOT say that the entire multiverse was destroyer... it was a prelude to the possibility of that.
and it wasn't once or twice that universe was mentioned. in fact we had to get into the fact that supergod hercules... the person who restored everything... mentioned it was the universe... athena herself... etc.. and the person you had that mentioned it was the multiverse was amadeus cho without the benefit of the godlike powers of hercules...
but yes i was definitely team universe....
on the other hand. stop bringing up outside stuff into this. if you want to get back into another chaos war/chaos king debate then bump that thread and we can rehash the same thing all over ago. but at this point you and i are derailing this thread.
back on it. i definitely appreciate the level of power of the star brand. but i definitely don't think those issues are being interpreted by either of us the same way. I definitely take it as ig > starbrand.
Originally posted by zopzop
😆
He never sealed off the Starbrand, because it WASN'T ON THE PLANET in question. It was already in the possession of Skeletron in the original New Universe! The Stranger even tells the LT that.
You were saying? 😉
Originally posted by zopzop
Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.
That may be true because you posted the scan with Stranger stating that the seal needs to stay intact because of Skeletron accumulating so much power.
Before you posted that, it was iffy to me as to where the majority of the power went because you have Stranger teleporting the power source (New Earth) away from Skeletron with Kayla on it here.
And you have Stranger being zapped for a portion of it which I thought to be minute because as it states here, Stranger exhausted himself just from moving the world to 616.
