Kit Fisto and Mace Windu vs. Savage Oppress and Maul

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's really no different from Asajj taking on Anakin & Obi-Wan in "Nightsisters" while wounded and holding her own. Usually, when she fights them one-on-one, she's on the losing side.

Short of Filoni or someone outright telling me otherwise, I'm disinclined to allow a contorted view of a singular instance outweigh the outcomes of multiple ones.

Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jar'Kai is suited for fighting two people at once.

Yeah, you know who else used Jar'Kai against two enemies he's normally unable to beat? Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit. The feats are not comparable.

They really are. Once your eyes dry, you'll be able to see that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi and Skywalker were clearly not fighting their best.

Never said they were. Which is something else that fight has in common with the one in "Revival."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul sure as hell wasn't holding back if that's what you are suggesting.

Nah, I'm outright telling you. 😬

The difference being, my argument has evidence whereas yours just has hurt feelings.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.

He pretty much doesn't, but don't let a little thing like facts get in your way. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, you know who else used Jar'Kai against two enemies he's normally unable to beat? Obi-Wan.

They really are. Once your eyes dry, you'll be able to see that.

1. Kenobi and Skywalker engaging in 1 handed locks with Ventress when they could have overpowered her with full powered blows.
2. The two of them literally not being pressured at all during the fight.
3. The causality with which they push her away.
4. At no point did Ventress have the advantage.

In the Kenobi vs. Maul bros
1. Kenobi breaks Savage's legs and relieves him of one of his arms, effectively incapacitating him entirely.
2. The two of them are Sith, they fight bloodlusted and with intent to kill.
3. The intensity of that duel>>>>The Ventress thing
4. Kenobi was landing blows on both of them.

Never said they were. Which is something else that fight has in common with the one in "Revival."

Dave Filoni flat out denies that that fight was a draw.

-bias assertion of arguing that argument lacks bias-

He pretty much doesn't, but don't let a little thing like facts get in your way. 👆 [/B]

Maul VA: I think it was a tie.
Filoni: No.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Could I get a link on that quote?

Featurette on The Lawless:

http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep516/#!/media/commentary

1:25-1:32

Edit- Just noticed Ares already posted it.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Mace in close-combat = Sidious - who beat Maul and Savage.

Mace can beat both Maul and Savage down by himself, with moderate difficulty.

This is excactly where A>B>C fails. I don't see Windu ragdolling both of them together with the Force. Just like Anakin didn't stomp Obi-Wan even though he beat Count Dooku who did. Because again Aankin couldn't ragdoll Obi-Wan with the force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.

I'm not sure about this. But he did confirm Kenobi defeated both brothers.

But either way the Fisto=Kenobi argument is completely moot now.

Even if we go solely by Kenobi's previous performance against Maul in the same episode, he was easily at least Maul's equal in Sabers. Which is of course well beyond Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Let me break down as to why that's B.S.

1. Kenobi and Skywalker engaging in 1 handed locks with Ventress when they could have overpowered her with full powered blows.
2. The two of them literally not being pressured at all during the fight.
3. The causality with which they push her away.
4. At no point did Ventress have the advantage.

YouTube video

2:27, Obi-Wan is KO'd with a kick to the face; 2:36, Anakin is flattened with a Force push; 3:09, both are strangled by Ventress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In the Kenobi vs. Maul bros
1. Kenobi breaks Savage's legs and relieves him of one of his arms, effectively incapacitating him entirely.
2. The two of them are Sith, they fight bloodlusted and with intent to kill.
3. The intensity of that duel>>>>The Ventress thing
4. Kenobi was landing blows on both of them.

Irrelevant. Maul did not seek to kill Obi-Wan (confirmed, among other places, on the official website in Obi-Wan's profile) and demanded his surrender. When Maul got serious, he pimp smacked Obi-Wan with the Force and buried him alive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove it.

Already did. Maul sought Obi-Wan's surrender and intended to torture and humiliate him, which requires him to be alive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dave Filoni flat out denies that that fight was a draw.

I never claimed the fight was a draw. Address my argument and not the strawman you've constructed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul VA: I think it was a tie.
Filoni: No.

Irrelevant. Obi-Wan didn't "tie" Anakin in ROTS, either. Doesn't change the fact that, according to George Lucas and a myriad of sources, Anakin was the superior warrior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
YouTube video

2:27, Obi-Wan is KO'd with a kick to the face; 2:36, Anakin is flattened with a Force push; 3:09, both are strangled by Ventress.

Irrelevant. Obi-Wan didn't "tie" Anakin in ROTS, either. Doesn't change the fact that, according to George Lucas and a myriad of sources, Anakin was the superior warrior.

Mizukage_Yoda
KO'd, come on. You are exaggerating.

facepalm

Unless Obi-Wan suffers from severe narcolepsy, I'm pretty sure she knocked him out.

Mizukage_Yoda
Also she is flattened by force pushes way more than they are. Ventress is consistently on the retreat, and gets backed into a corner.

I never denied any of this. You're far too preoccupied building an elaborate strawman to actually address my argument. You were the one who claimed Ventress "at no point" in the duel had an advantage. Either you were lying or mistaken, but either way you should probably dismount from Obi-Wan's nuts in order to better make your case.

Mizukage_Yoda
Also the force choke is irrelevant because by that point the two of them had Ventress' back against the wall and she was for all intents and purposes in their eyes defeated.

Yes, because Anakin and Obi-Wan suffered spontaneous memory loss and forgot that unarmed Force users still have the Force.

Try harder.

Mizukage_Yoda
Maul got in one hit on Kenobi in the Force, then retreated. The retreating party is the defeated party by the rules of battle. And no that was not a tactical withdrawal either. That was your textbook retreat.

facepalm

Yes because one typically retreats in terror and defeat from an enemy they've just ragdolled and buried alive. Savage's injuries and the betrayal of their pirate cohorts clearly didn't play a single role in their departure (even though the website says otherwise).

Mizukage_Yoda
And Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master stated by Filoni to be in the height of clarity, he was hardly fighting with the intent to kill, only to disarm. (i.e. Yoda and Kenobi fighting to destroy the Sith in ROTS).

Nowhere did Filoni say that Obi-Wan was restraining himself or not fighting to kill, nor is that communicated by the website.

Another lie from you will be considered an automatic act of concession and submission on your part.

Mizukage_Yoda
Then what the hell are you arguing?

My advice would be, when your hysterics have calmed, to reread my argument slowly. Sound out the words you have trouble with and consult a dictionary if need be. It's all very simple and very plainly written.

Mizukage_Yoda
Don't try and derail my argument with that red herring.

haermm

The guy whose posts are more a house of cards than argument, constructed by open lies and misplaced aggression, dares to lecture me on a "red herring"?

Mizukage_Yoda
The Kenobi-Skywalker is a unique instance in the universe because Kenobi had intricate knowledge of Anakin's bladework prior to the fight.

The point, in case you missed it, is that a duel's winner is not necessarily the stronger combatant.

Just so there's no confusion on the issue, Maul didn't know his band of pirates had betrayed him until he already began his retreat. He gets outside and commands the pirates to come with him.

And From Maul's bio on the official site:

With Savage wounded, Maul retreated only to discover that his pirate forces were no longer under his command.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Unless Obi-Wan suffers from severe narcolepsy, I'm pretty sure she knocked him out.

He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.

I never denied any of this. You're far too preoccupied building an elaborate strawman to actually address my argument. You were the one who claimed Ventress "at no point" in the duel had an advantage. Either you were lying or mistaken, but either way you should probably dismount from Obi-Wan's nuts in order to better make your case.

There was no point where she had the advantage. Arguing that Ventress had the advantage when she was force choking them is like arguing Savage Oppress had the advantage against Dooku and Ventress. Which is a ridiculous notion.

Yes, because Anakin and Obi-Wan suffered spontaneous memory loss and forgot that unarmed Force users still have the Force.

Yes because one typically retreats in terror and defeat from an enemy they've just ragdolled and buried alive. Savage's injuries and the betrayal of their pirate cohorts clearly didn't play a single role in their departure (even though the website says otherwise).

Nowhere did Filoni say that Obi-Wan was restraining himself or not fighting to kill, nor is that communicated by the website.

Jedi are always fighting to capture unless otherwise stated. It's the point of being a Jedi.

Another lie from you will be considered an automatic act of concession and submission on your part.

I wasn't aware you were appointed moderator of the SWVF.

My advice would be, when your hysterics have calmed, to reread my argument slowly. Sound out the words you have trouble with and consult a dictionary if need be. It's all very simple and very plainly written.

Cut the dramatic prose please.

The guy whose posts are more a house of cards than argument, constructed by open lies and misplaced aggression, dares to lecture me on a "red herring"?

The point, in case you missed it, is that a duel's winner is not necessarily the stronger combatant.

Except you used a really bad example to prove that point. Kenobi had the distinct advantage of knowing all of Skywalkers strengths, weaknesses and moves having seen them hundreds of times.

Your argument is pretty weak.
You say that Kenobi~Maul in sabers because in their prior engagements they were equal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvGXSe8fvrs
17:57
"And he loses that fight, rather he's not in the right mindset...When you get to this episode, Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi-Gallia dies, he gains more focus and sort of has to right that wrong. He's a very skilled swordsman. He's not going to lose that fight in that situation."

"I think it's more of a tie..."

"Nah."

Kenobi is Maul's superior in raw sabers, mate. Savage is Fisto's superior as well given Filoni's statements.

Mizukage_Yoda
He got right back up.

False.

He's rendered unconscious at 2:27 and is still out of the fight ten seconds later (that's 2:37 if you can't count) when the battle cuts away to Dooku issuing orders to the commanding droid.

Me
Another lie from you will be considered an automatic act of concession and submission on your part.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that [B]renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.

[/B]

Obi-Wan was knocked out.

But the Ventress vs Anakin and Obi-Wan was completely different to Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress.

Firstly Anakin and Obi-Wan won that duel with all their limbs in tact. Second they just were not willing to hurt her at all. They had her at their mercy a couple of times but did not seem willing to lay a scratch on her.

In the other fight Maul and Opress were clearly not so merciful and were confirmed by Filoni to be incapable of defeating Obi-Wan in that situation. And yes perhaps Maul didn't want Obi-Wan dead yet. But let's not pretend he'd cry if he had to kill him. Or that he wouldn't be willing to chop off a few limbs.

And going with consistent showings is all fine. As long as we don't forget Obi-Wan is significantly improving through the Clone Wars. And it's not like he lacks feats. Grievous, Ventress, Opress and Sith Anakin are all on his list of wins.

^ Not to mention just stalemating Maul in Sabers puts him well above Fisto anyway. And that's ignoring his besting of both brothers together.

Oh look it's Jessiah trying to lowball Kenobi again.

Oh look it's Jessiah being a ***** again. uhuh

Again? I wasn't aware he'd ever stopped being a *****.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that [B]renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.[/B]

He was unconscious?

That he is able to recover from a knock out faster than a non-force user, doesn't mean that he was not unconscious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jedi are always fighting to capture unless otherwise stated. It's the point of being a Jedi.

A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Savage is Fisto's superior as well given Filoni's statements.

Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you.

You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.

Narcolepsy is more common than you'd think.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.

Ah right.. So a peacekeeping Jedi wouldn't hesitate to strike a fatal blow, but Sidious would against Maul.. Yeah of course.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you.

The context was obviously comparable to Fisto's in Filoni's eyes.