Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was unconscious?That he is able to recover from a knock out faster than a non-force user, doesn't mean that he was not unconscious.
A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.
Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.
Lol I just watched the fight. We see Kenobi on the floor once. Sort of like when he was kicked by Dooku. The next time we see Kenobi he is pushing Ventress back. I dunno what the hell you two are talking about.
A KO would be what Dooku did to Kenobi aboard the Invisible Hand.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was knocked out.But the Ventress vs Anakin and Obi-Wan was completely different to Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress.
Firstly Anakin and Obi-Wan won that duel with all their limbs in tact. Second they just were not willing to hurt her at all. They had her at their mercy a couple of times but did not seem willing to lay a scratch on her.
In the other fight Maul and Opress were clearly not so merciful and were confirmed by Filoni to be incapable of defeating Obi-Wan in that situation. And yes perhaps Maul didn't want Obi-Wan dead yet. But let's not pretend he'd cry if he had to kill him. Or that he wouldn't be willing to chop off a few limbs.
And going with consistent showings is all fine. As long as we don't forget Obi-Wan is significantly improving through the Clone Wars. And it's not like he lacks feats. Grievous, Ventress, Opress and Sith Anakin are all on his list of wins.
I see this has become a definition of the word Knock Out...still Power's statements essentially sum up my points.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol I just watched the fight. We see Kenobi on the floor once. Sort of like when he was kicked by Dooku. The next time we see Kenobi he is pushing Ventress back. I dunno what the hell you two are talking about.A KO would be what Dooku did to Kenobi aboard the Invisible Hand.
After Kenobi is floored, Anakin is fighting Ventress on his own and you still see Obi-Wan lying still there in the background. That's what they're referring to. It seems he was KO'd for a few seconds.
But whatever. At least he still had all his limbs in tact and at least Anakin and Obi-Wan still won that duel, despite the fact that they did not pursue for the finish every time Ventress was disarmed.
None of that applies to Maul and Opress against Obi-Wan. The Sith Brothers were both aggressively attacking and couldn't do jack to Kenobi. Whilst Obi-Wan was besting Maul and stomping Opress simultaneously.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace solos the brothers probably. The superconducting loop that allowed him to fight on par with Sidious would be doubled. In such a state as of when fighting both brothers, and feeding from both of their rage into his own strength he would probably be even more powerful than Sidious. Case closed.
Didn't think of that. If he can feed of the rage off both of them it could make him seriously powerful.
But tbh I'm not sure anyone's certain about how exactly the superconducting loop works. We need more examples of it in play.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Didn't think of that. If he can feed of the rage off both of them it could make him seriously powerful.
That's the whole point of Vaapad.
It's a state of mind, not just a fighting style. It allows the combatant to channel his own darkness during the duel, and counter the fury and rage of the opponent. Using Vaapad means you understand the fury, power and rage of your opponent, transforming them and their darkness into a superconducting loop.
Mace Windu along with Sora Bulq invented Vaapad, but the only one to truly master it was Windu.
Add his Shatterpoint ability to this, and you'll see exactly why he beat Sidious and could solo the brothers.
In terms of pure lightsaber skill and mastery of the Force, by RotS, Yoda is stated to be Sidious' equal, but these are the abilities which Yoda lacks that gave Windu a serious edge over Sidious and allow him to be supremely effective against dark siders.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER After Kenobi is floored, Anakin is fighting Ventress on his own and you still see Obi-Wan lying still there in the background. That's what they're referring to. It seems he was KO'd for a few seconds.
In any case they ignore that in later series Kenobi tanked much stronger kicks of Grievous and Maul and Anakin. Maul actually kicked Kenobi in the face followed by another kick that slammed him against the wall and Kenobi was still conscious. That's obvious ignorance of Kenobi's improved durability on their part.
In any case all characters have lowshowings at some points. Dooku got disarmed by single attack from Opress, while Ventress and Kenobi in all cases showed themselves better against Opress. But that still cannot take away feats like fighting Yoda, Ventress/Sisters, Kenobi/Windu and Anakin/Kenobi.
But as you pointed out the biggest fail is how they judge Fisto to be Kenobi's equal by comparing his high showing to Kenobi's lowshowing against Grievous.
With same success I can judge Fisto to be Windu's equal as he was unable to defeat Grievous a well:
"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.
As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.
In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.
The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.
Clearly, Grievous - - onetime courageous commander of sentient troops - - realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous - - current commander of droids and other war machines - - wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades. Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.
Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell,
"
So lets gather facts:
1. Grievous used only two lightsabers, not four.
2. Barely he activated them Mace was all over him trying to take him down with unusual aggression for a Jedi.
3. Grievous attacks were as forceful as any Windu ever had to counter.
4. Windu was astonished by his speed.
5. Grievous didn't know Vaapad, which was giving advantage to Windu. And it still didn't help, Grievous simply learned it on the go.
6. Windu wasn't interested in prolonging the contest and started retreating despite the fact that Kit Fisto already finished Magnaguards.
7. As Grievous jumped after Windu and "faltered", Windu tried to take full advantage of that and attacked... only to nearly lose his head and jump away as well as give a Force push.
It couldn't be more obvious that Windu tried his hardest and still his performance against Grievous is nowhere as impressive as Fisto's. And this fight was enough for Windu to conclude that not him nor Yoda are good enough to defeat Grievous and that Kenobi is the best contender. 💃
Originally posted by NTJack0
Oh you, I'll admit, I giggled.
According to Windu Yoda wouldn't be as good contender against Grievous as Kenobi:
Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."
This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataru-"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you.""
While you might not believe Windu's statement, he is still in far better position to judge Yoda's and Grievous' prowess than any forum user. He fought his hardest against Grievous and even tried to take advantage, when Grievous faltered and still failed to defeat him or at least put on the defensive. Not to mention that Grievous used only two lightsabers whole fight instead of four. He sparred with Yoda and knows his capabilities and limitations. He, also, addressed why Kenobi has better chance. A>B>C logic doesn't work because each character has different advantages and disadvantages. His judgment holds firm basis.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Arhael, bro, LoE was written prior to the events of ROTS and the current series where we now know that Grievous is no match for the elite. I applaud the attempt, but you're only protracting your agonizing failure.
Originally posted by Arhael
No match for the elite? You don't know, you assume.
No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.
Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi is the elite. Grievous ever struggled only against Jarkai practitioners. And if you compare fight against Fisto and Ventress, you will notice that Grievous fought her evenly without being driven back, which demonstrates improvement.
Until, you know, he was driven back. facepalm
Originally posted by Arhael
And in RotS Windu refers to exactly that fight against Grievous. Your attempt to dismiss two canon sources is laughable.
facepalm
The novelization was written in 2005, the television series debuted in 2008. The depiction of Grievous evolved drastically from a nigh-unstoppable Jedi killer to a moderately-talented warrior who, to paraphrase Filoni, is no threat to "real Jedi."
Even if we granted the reference, the fact of the matter is that it may very well not have played out the way Labyrinth of Evil portrayed it. Similar to how Adi Gallia's death in "Revival" doesn't retcon the entirety of Obsession.
Try harder.
http://www.forcecast.net/story/forcecast/Weekly_ForceCast_January_20_2012_143166.asp
^ Check the ~55 minute mark at your leisure, Arhael. I'll check in with you later.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.
Until, you know, he was driven back. facepalm
The novelization was written in 2005, the television series debuted in 2008. The depiction of Grievous evolved drastically from a nigh-unstoppable Jedi killer to a moderately-talented warrior who, to paraphrase Filoni, is no threat to "real Jedi."Even if we granted the reference, the fact of the matter is that it may very well not have played out the way Labyrinth of Evil portrayed it. Similar to how Adi Gallia's death in "Revival" doesn't retcon the entirety of Obsession.
Try harder.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.forcecast.net/story/forcecast/Weekly_ForceCast_January_20_2012_143166.asp^ Check the ~55 minute mark at your leisure, Arhael. I'll check in with you later.
He states that Grievous is not that big challenge as in mini CW. Nevertheless, he refers to fight between Kenobi and Grievous as "good fight".
He' also, says: "It doesn't mean he is not a threat". So your statement that he is not a threat for "real Jedi" still notwithstanding.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.Until, you know, he was driven back. facepalm
facepalm
The novelization was written in 2005, the television series debuted in 2008. The depiction of Grievous evolved drastically from a nigh-unstoppable Jedi killer to a moderately-talented warrior who, to paraphrase Filoni, is no threat to "real Jedi."
Even if we granted the reference, the fact of the matter is that it may very well not have played out the way Labyrinth of Evil portrayed it. Similar to how Adi Gallia's death in "Revival" doesn't retcon the entirety of Obsession.
Try harder.
You do realize the HIGHEST form of canon i.e. > than Filoni view.. Has Mace outright saying.. Nobody can get The General except Kenobi. He even mentions that neither him nor Yoda are as good for the job as Kenobi. Without any hesitation or question that dismisses this laughable theory that The General is no match for "real jedi" whatever the F that even means.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do realize the HIGHEST form of canon i.e. > than Filoni view.. Has Mace outright saying.. Nobody can get The General except Kenobi. He even mentions that neither him nor Yoda are as good for the job as Kenobi. Without any hesitation or question that dismisses this laughable theory that The General is no match for "real jedi" whatever the F that even means.
And you must be high on some good shit if you think Yoda would have anything but zero difficulty against the General.
Also quote from LOE
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"-Count Dooku
/
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
...Although the Shaak Ti thing makes no sense. I tend to go with the first one, as Shaak Ti, even with backup doesn't think she can match the General.