Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) VS. Mace Windu (ROTS)

^ And that's just 1 of 3 quotes that suggests Dooku >/= Mace. The other two are in DR.

The only source I can think of that may suggest that Mace >/= Dooku is not a quote, but a fight they had in "Obsession." They seemed to have fought quite evenly but Dooku fled.

But TCW seems to have pretty much rendered that comic non-canon anyway.

Then of course if you look at their performances against foes they both fought- Sora Bulq and Ventress- Dooku actually looked superior. Though that's speculative. But nothing ever showed Mace to be outright superior to Dooku that's for sure.

That idea all seems to come down to the fact that he beat Sidious.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Drawing from the opponent's rage is only part of what Vaapad does. Apart from de drawing from that rage Vaapad allows the user to use the darkness of the opponent against him/herself. It's both things.

Well if he's drawing from their rage while he's fighting them, then he's obviously using their rage against them.

Just as the Darkside opponent is using his own rage against Mace.

Hence the superconducting loop. The same rage is used against both Mace and his opponent.

We know about the rage, I was pointing out the other part of Vaapad which consists on using the darkness of Windu's opponent against him/herself. Which is what you're missing.

^ I'm not missing that:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Well if he's drawing from their rage while he's fighting them, then he's obviously using their rage against them.

Rage is the Darkness used in this context.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Burden of proof is on you mate. I know for a fact that it's been stated that Dooku outspared Windu prior to leaving the order. No such quote exists suggesting the opposite.

I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to [legitimately?] defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
To you.

Sidious also refrained from making Mace eat saber with his force lightning.

Okay, it still won't give him the edge that people think it will. I'm kind of tired of people making it seem that unless you are Yoda or Luke Godwalker you can't compete with Mace in sabers.

This is wrong.
Your perceptions aside it's been stated multiple times that Dooku was Mace's superior in bladework. It's also been stated that prime Qui-Gon was his equal.

This makes zero sense... These are the facts.... Dooku knew he was no match for Sids.. Period end of story. Windu on the other hand beat Sids... that totally completly trashes the theory that Dooku > than Anakin.. and also makes it clear they aren't even equals. COMBAT FEATS are exponentionally mroe important than narration. Somebody can talk all they want about how good they are or how good they are compared to blank... but what takes precedence are feats.

What are you implying here.. that sids held back and wasn't trying to make Windu eat his own blade.. Hogwash.

This thread shouldn't even have made it this far. Anakin is no match for Sids... Mace or Yoda... PERIOD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ And that's just 1 of 3 quotes that suggests Dooku >/= Mace. The other two are in DR.

The only source I can think of that may suggest that Mace >/= Dooku is not a quote, but a fight they had in "Obsession." They seemed to have fought quite evenly but Dooku fled.

But TCW seems to have pretty much rendered that comic non-canon anyway.

Then of course if you look at their performances against foes they both fought- Sora Bulq and Ventress- Dooku actually looked superior. Though that's speculative. But nothing ever showed Mace to be outright superior to Dooku that's for sure.

That idea all seems to come down to the fact that he beat Sidious.

This is SPARRING FOR GOD'S SAKE... WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT SPARRING. Part of Windu's style is very aggressive and lethal in nature. These are facts. Making it a sparring session INHERENTLY takes away those key elements. Going for the kill DOESN'T eliminate them. I'm totally unclear how this goes beyond some of you. Have some of you never played sports and competed at even the High School level? I mean for ****'s sake, if you did, you would understand the difference between sparring and a life and death situation. Dooku out sparring Mace.. pretty much means ziltch.

Not only does it take away Vaapad and some of its attributes it also takes away Shatterpoint... How does shatterpoint work in sparring.. The whole point of it is to find the shatterpoint of your opponent and get the win... In a saber fight that means injuring or killing your foe... Which of course you can't do in sparring. So again, sparring has little signifcance to the real deal.

Ummm yeah and that is a huge huge thing... If one boxer beat a good Ali and another guy didn't and admitted he's way inferior to all... what are we suppose to think boxer B is better cause he beat Jerry Quarry? Or because he looked good in sparring with boxer A? No, beating one of the best counts for a lot A LOT MORE than either.. AS IT SHOULD.

Mace Windu Vaapad-Blitzes him. Nuff said.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is SPARRING FOR GOD'S SAKE... WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT SPARRING. Part of Windu's style is very aggressive and lethal in nature. These are facts. Making it a sparring session INHERENTLY takes away those key elements. Going for the kill DOESN'T eliminate them. I'm totally unclear how this goes beyond some of you. Have some of you never played sports and competed at even the High School level? I mean for ****'s sake, if you did, you would understand the difference between sparring and a life and death situation. Dooku out sparring Mace.. pretty much means ziltch.

Not only does it take away Vaapad and some of its attributes it also takes away Shatterpoint... How does shatterpoint work in sparring.. The whole point of it is to find the shatterpoint of your opponent and get the win... In a saber fight that means injuring or killing your foe... Which of course you can't do in sparring. So again, sparring has little signifcance to the real deal.

Well clearly Sparring gives some indication since it was only Yoda and Dooku who could beat him.

And again your missing the point that it's just 1 of 3 quotes that has Dooku =/> Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm yeah and that is a huge huge thing... If one boxer beat a good Ali and another guy didn't and admitted he's way inferior to all... what are we suppose to think boxer B is better cause he beat Jerry Quarry? Or because he looked good in sparring with boxer A? No, beating one of the best counts for a lot A LOT MORE than either.. AS IT SHOULD.

Again your missing the point. It's just more evidence that Mace isn't in a different league to Dooku. Not at all.

Every source, every evidence suggests a level of parity between the 2.

Even their fight in Obsession which had Dooku fleeing was clearly not one sided. They were fighting very evenly. And there was a whole party of Jedi and Troopers out to get Dooku so we can't really put too much into him fleeing, except that he realizes that even IF he can defeat Mace it wouldn't be with any kind of ease.

So again this whole Mace > Dooku idea all comes down to Mace beating Sidious.

Yes Mace beat Sidious after starting the fight with 3 Jedi Masters on his side. But then Dooku held his own against Yoda. Was Mace's feat more impressive? Probably. Did it outright show Mace as Dooku's superior? I doubt it.

Honestly there's nothing anywhere that suggests Mace is in a league above Dooku. The EU has certainly always had them to be relatively on par with each other.

^ Oh and he also fought Mace and Obi-Wan together at one point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ieRQ-4BB4

I know we don't know how long that lasted outside of gameplay. Could have been 5 seconds.

But it does contribute to all evidence that Mace isn't out of Dooku's league. And this fight is actually canon to TCW. The Obsession one probably isn't now.

ummm no not really... sparring doesn't give much of any indication... sure if you're arguing is gives us SOMETHING.. well of course.. it does somethhing. But that something is far removed from what an actual fight would look like with Mace going all out. As I stated, which you didn't address.. you're essentially taking away the key advantages that Mace has in Vaapad and Shatterpoint and basically making it a fencing match. So, of course, Dooku might beat him or it would be a good fight.. that is Dooku's style to begin with.

Dooku holding his own... is kinda misleading... The novel makes it pretty clear that had Dooku stayed he was going to lose that fight. The movie even seems to indicate as much... Dooku tried everything he could throw at Yoda.. and yoda just casually dismissed it... "a lot to learn you still have" Let's not act like Dooku ever had any advantage over Yoda or even seemed to do anything to him. If anythning, it came across like Yoda had the advantage. The whole point is, YES beating somebody superior to Dooku.. DOES count for a lot, even though you don't think it should. It should and does.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Oh and he also fought Mace and Obi-Wan together at one point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ieRQ-4BB4

I know we don't know how long that lasted outside of gameplay. Could have been 5 seconds.

But it does contribute to all evidence that Mace isn't out of Dooku's league. And this fight is actually canon to TCW. The Obsession one probably isn't now.

Did you just use a game and try and compare its canon validity to the movie or novel? Sorry, not the same form of canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I'm not missing that:

Rage is the Darkness used in this context.

Then why would you refer to darkness as rage?

They're not the same thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to [legitimately?] defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to [legitimately?] defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

You are dealing in the questionably canon here. Obsession hardly counts anymore.

And another time when they fought, Windu had Kenobi with him.
Also, consider this:
1. Mace defeated Sidious, when Sidious didn't ever use his force powers.
2. That's a load of A>B>C logic bull. Sidious has never fought Mace Windu, Dooku has fought Mace many a time.
3. For all we know there are several circumstances where Sidious would have won against Mace. That was just a fluke.

For example. Sidious vs. Windu in the Grand Convocation chamber would end in Sidious' victory with moderate difficulty. ala TK.

I think mace windu all the way. No doubt

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are dealing in the questionably canon here. Obsession hardly counts anymore.

The only thing about Obsession that has been officially deemed n-canon are the fates of Gallia & Ventress. Likewise, when Evan Piell was killed in the Citadel arc, the Coruscant Nights trilogy was not swept off the table.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And another time when they fought, Windu had Kenobi with him.

And Dooku had a squad of MagnaGuards with him, so what?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also, consider this:
1. Mace defeated Sidious, when Sidious didn't ever use his force powers.

You should reread the script; Sidious did use the Force against Mace.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. That's a load of A>B>C logic bull. Sidious has never fought Mace Windu, Dooku has fought Mace many a time.

Kit had never fought Grievous prior to "Lair of Grievous" and still tooled him; Kenobi fought Grievous repeatedly and met with less than spectacular results. Familiarity works both ways.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. For all we know there are several circumstances where Sidious would have won against Mace. That was just a fluke.

No doubt, except that the novelization attributes Mace's victory to talents that will be in play against Dooku. Vaapad made Mace the Dark Lord's equal, which puts him in excess of Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
For example. Sidious vs. Windu in the Grand Convocation chamber would end in Sidious' victory with moderate difficulty. ala TK.

Perhaps. But as Sidious is superior to Dooku in all respects, this is irrelevant. If one considers Mace's victory legitimate (the result of shatterpoint charism and Vaapad), then Dooku hasn't got a prayer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only thing about Obsession that has been officially deemed n-canon are the fates of Gallia & Ventress. Likewise, when Evan Piell was killed in the Citadel arc, the Coruscant Nights trilogy was not swept off the table.

And Dooku had a squad of MagnaGuards with him, so what?

You should reread the script; Sidious did use the Force against Mace.

Kit had never fought Grievous prior to "Lair of Grievous" and still tooled him; Kenobi fought Grievous repeatedly and met with less than spectacular results. Familiarity works both ways.

No doubt, except that the novelization attributes Mace's victory to talents that will be in play against Dooku. Vaapad made Mace the Dark Lord's equal, which puts him in excess of Dooku.

Perhaps. But as Sidious is superior to Dooku in all respects, this is irrelevant. If one considers Mace's victory legitimate (the result of shatterpoint charism and Vaapad), then Dooku hasn't got a prayer.

One fight does not mean Mace could trounce Sidious. For all we know Sidious takes in 9/10, that 1/10 was what we saw in the movie. Meanwhile Dooku vs. Mace could be 55:45 in Dooku's favor, where Sids vs. Mace is likely 65:35 Sidious' favor. Do you see what I mean?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
ummm no not really... sparring doesn't give much of any indication... sure if you're arguing is gives us SOMETHING.. well of course.. it does somethhing. But that something is far removed from what an actual fight would look like with Mace going all out. As I stated, which you didn't address.. you're essentially taking away the key advantages that Mace has in Vaapad and Shatterpoint and basically making it a fencing match. So, of course, Dooku might beat him or it would be a good fight.. that is Dooku's style to begin with.

Dooku holding his own... is kinda misleading... The novel makes it pretty clear that had Dooku stayed he was going to lose that fight. The movie even seems to indicate as much... Dooku tried everything he could throw at Yoda.. and yoda just casually dismissed it... "a lot to learn you still have" Let's not act like Dooku ever had any advantage over Yoda or even seemed to do anything to him. If anythning, it came across like Yoda had the advantage. The whole point is, YES beating somebody superior to Dooku.. DOES count for a lot, even though you don't think it should. It should and does.

Anyone, and I mean A N Y O N E who believes that sparring is truly indicative of how actual combat would play out is... ignorant to say the least; Ignorant of real world combat and ignorant of life. I guarandamntee you that Mace wouldn't have used Vaapad in a sparring session, especially given that he was terrified of the darkness until after the vents of SP. To think that he would practice a combat style that takes its user through the penumbra of the darkside in anything less than a life or death scenario is asinine.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I've gone on-record saying a.) Sidious vs. Mace has more holes in it than Swiss cheese and b.) I abhor the idea of Mace being Dooku's better.

But if one assumes Vaapad!Mace =/> Sidious, then Dooku doesn't have a chance.

Sparring is like fencing... i.e. Dooku's style to begin with.. Just the fact that mace compete at Dooku's forte while supressing his inherent advantages speaks volumes about who is better.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I've gone on-record saying a.) Sidious vs. Mace has more holes in it than Swiss cheese and b.) I abhor the idea of Mace being Dooku's better.

But if one assumes Vaapad!Mace =/> Sidious, then Dooku doesn't have a chance.

Vaapad give Mace a powerboost ~ to who he's combatting.

And no you can't assume Mace>/= Sidious.

See you are looking at it the wrong way.

Let's say Mace vs. Sidious is 99:1 in Sidious' favor, but the duel in ROTS was that one time where Mace wins. That does not make Mace Sidious' superior. AT ALL. Nor does that take away from the legitimacy of his victory.
I personally rate Mace v. Sidious a 65:35 in Sidious' favor. That means we just saw one of the 35 times Mace wins.
I view Dooku v. Windu at around 55:45 maybe even just 50:50. Do you see my point?