Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vaapad argument is pretty dumb. The relevant sources very explicitly state that Vaapad draws on not only Mace's internal darkness but that of his enemy. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a two-part process./discussion
On a side note, I maintain that Vaapad is one of the worst ideas ever.
Agreed. Although it does make sense as the most powerful form. I dunno I'm kind of split about it. The thing I don't like is how haxx it is.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Agreed. Although it does make sense as the most powerful form. I dunno I'm kind of split about it. The thing I don't like is how haxx it is.
yup
To be fair, Vaapad was not Stover's idea. In fact, he's gone on record that he hates not only the concept of Vaapad, but lightsaber forms in general (a sentiment I share).
Curiously, George specifically said in the featurettes of Attack of the Clones that every single Jedi has his own unique style, presumably the product of his or her own talents, preferences, etc. I don't know who came up with the idea to create 7, slap names on 'em, and give them RPG-esque strengths & weaknesses....
Originally posted by The_Tempest
yupTo be fair, Vaapad was [b]not
Stover's idea. In fact, he's gone on record that he hates not only the concept of Vaapad, but lightsaber forms in general (a sentiment I share).Curiously, George specifically said in the featurettes of Attack of the Clones that every single Jedi has his own unique style, presumably the product of his or her own talents, preferences, etc. I don't know who came up with the idea to create 7, slap names on 'em, and give them RPG-esque strengths & weaknesses.... [/B]
Except Mace Windu's power has no weakness...except perhaps Dun Moch, which Darth Sidious surprisingly didn't use against him.
If Mace were facing a light sided user of the force, then he wouldn't really be utilizing Vaapad, he'd be using Juyo-- ie. he'd only be able to channel his own darkness against his opponent. However, even without being able to channel an opponent's darkness, Mace was still nearly on par with Yoda.
However, if he faces a dark side practitioner, Mace is able to utilize 'true' Vaapad-- ie. he is able to channel both his own inner darkness, AND that of his opponent, allowing him to use both emotional aspects against said opponent. This added metaphysical ability is what allowed Mace to dominate Palpatine(who is =/> Yoda.)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.
He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.
I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.
Yes.Vaapad works both ways, drawing from Windu's own darkness and that of the enemy, as well. The quotes you (Arhael) provided are not contradicting anything, they're just adding. You said that since Yoda, our example, is a light sider, Windu would draw from his own darkness instead. Well, if Yoda was a dark sider, he would draw from his own darkness and that of his opponent's, adding to his power even further and making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.
It's quite simple.
And I was just making clear that emotions do not equate power. I wasn't saying it had anything to do with Vaapad.
"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent". - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
vs
"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow"
One talks about fury and power of darkness. Another about Mace himself becoming channel competeled by Sidious. Contradiction is rather obvious.
And you are assuming here. You claim Mace can draw from his own darkness as well as opponent simultaneously. You assume that he can spread his focus on both his emotions and opponents. The novel doesn't support this. It states that Windu focuses on Sidious' fury, not on his whatever feelings.
And again you assume that Windu uses power of his opponent like it's a Force technique, when Vaapad is not. It is lightsaber style on first place, physical exercise. What distinguishes Form VII is that it requires to use emotions. State of mind refers to emotional state. It's all happens in head. Windu did not borrow power as a matter of energy, he focused on emotions.
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office."
Now tell me. It states that he drew rage and power into inmost center and let it out like a fountain. How is it possible on physical level? Such things are possible only on mental level. On physical level they are drawing on Force and attack physically. The statement goes on to explain how Windu is faced his darkness and is not afraid of it, which is emotional matter.
Farther this:
"Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source."
Absorbing and deflecting lightning with lightsaber is a technique completely unrelated to Vaapad, yet, Windu attributes this feat to Vaapad as well. Either Vaapad is actual Force technique, which it is clearly not or Windu utilized the same Force technique as others to counter lightning but with Vaapad state of mind. Vaapad is not a Force power, so how can you explain that Vaapad was used to counter it?
And again I will point out at things you did not address.
Yoda and Windu are stated to be equal is sabers by at least two different sources. If Vaapad works better against darksiders, then logically Windu is supposed to perform better than Yoda against them. Yet, Windu's saber performance is not better than Yoda's against Sidious. And his performance against lightning is below Yoda despite using lightsaber.
Back to the topic. Vaapad didn't make Windu more skilled saber combatant than Sidious, neither it made him equally powerful. Same will apply to Anakin.
If Mace were facing a light sided user of the force, then he wouldn't really be utilizing Vaapad, he'd be using Juyo-- ie. he'd only be able to channel his own darkness against his opponent. This alone put him on par with Dooku and Yoda.However, if he faces a dark side practitioner, Mace is able to utilize 'true' Vaapad-- ie. he'd be able to channel not only his own inner darkness, but also his opponent's inner darkness as well, and channel both forces against said opponent. This added metaphysical ability is what allowed Mace to dominate Palpatine.
Well first.. I did like your info on Vaapad.. I thought that was pretty cool to read. However, you view on Mace.. and Yoda and how they did against Sids, is well, not on point. It wasn't an impasse.. Mace WON the fight... Sids wasn't the only person distracted... Mace also sensed Anakin's shatterpoint. That is a wash there and ultimately pointless regardless. You say Mace didn't do better than yoda.. and actually site Yoda doing better. This couldn't be further from the truth unless Yoda actually lost. Yoda stalemated Sids and at best look slightly superior. Kinda like a soccer game ending in a draw but one team winning on penalty kicks.. did they win.. sure.. but MUCH different than another team beating somebody 2-0.. One if conclusive.. the other is not.
Mace WON... Yoda didn't. There is no amount of excuses or analogies or reasons that change that simple fact. You reasoning is even flawed.. citing that Yoda was able to deflect Sids lighting without a saber.. While Mace didn't. This fails firstly because there is zero evidence or narration that suggest Mace couldn't do that himself. Secondly, it fails because Mace DIDN'T GET DISARMED like Yoda did. Mace showed better combat prowess and awareness in not doing so. Sids shot Yoda saber from his hand.. He also shot at Mace and Mace MAINTAINED his saber. Mace actually DISARMED sids during saber combat.. Yoda made sids drop is saber to regain his footing. Plus the obvious fact, and one i stated, MACE WON.
Anyways, I liked your points on Vaapad.. the rest.. well.. it was lacking
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi Sids wasn't the only person distracted... Mace also sensed Anakin's shatterpoint. That is a wash there and ultimately pointless regardless.
You say Mace didn't do better than yoda.. and actually site Yoda doing better. This couldn't be further from the truth unless Yoda actually lost. Yoda stalemated Sids and at best look slightly superior. Kinda like a soccer game ending in a draw but one team winning on penalty kicks.. did they win.. sure.. but MUCH different than another team beating somebody 2-0.. One if conclusive.. the other is not.
Mace WON... Yoda didn't. There is no amount of excuses or analogies or reasons that change that simple fact.Windu won due to circumstances. Yoda didn't win due to circumstances. These are facts as well. Windu disarmed Sidious due to circumstances. Yet, Yoda disarmed Sidious due to circumstances too. In saber performance they are even. The difference is that Sidious started faking weakness ones disarmed, while against Yoda he immediately used Force attack. Outcome of the fight with Sidious saber fights was a toss up in which circumstances decided.
This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."
- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126
All three Windu, Yoda and Sidious are level 9, that's why circumstances is main factor. But Kenobi is 8, while Anakin is 9 like Sidious. Yet, Kenobi won due to circumstances.
You reasoning is even flawed.. citing that Yoda was able to deflect Sids lighting without a saber.. While Mace didn't. This fails firstly because there is zero evidence or narration that suggest Mace couldn't do that himself.
Secondly, it fails because Mace DIDN'T GET DISARMED like Yoda did. Mace showed better combat prowess and awareness in not doing so. Sids shot Yoda saber from his hand.. He also shot at Mace and Mace MAINTAINED his saber.
Mace actually DISARMED sids during saber combat.. Yoda made sids drop is saber to regain his footing. Plus the obvious fact, and one i stated, MACE WON.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to lowball Windu. I just evaluate him in a way that it fits with the rest of the material. And in this thread I hold neutral position. For me outcome of the fight between them is a toss up. I've seen plenty of statements like "he defeated Sidious only because of Vaapad" but and that he is below Yoda in normal circumstances. I argue that he defeated Sidious because of his exceptional skill and talents, not because of unfair advantage against darksiders and that he is on parr with Yoda in normal circumstances.
Windu and Anakin are both stated to be level 9 combatants by Nick Gillard.
Anakin has much larger Force reserves but he will waste them faster, if Windu will fight defensively like against Sidious.
Anakin has immense strength due to mechanical hand as well as superior power but Windu compensates it with his naturally stronger body due to species.
Anakin is very good at unarmed combat but so is Windu.
Anakin has incredible durability to the point that he can sustain even kick in the chin but Windu has got shatterpoint, so possibly he might find a weak spot after all.
The fight is really a toss up.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^The fight is a toss up. The video game ROTS even depicts a duel between Skywalker and Windu, with Skywalker as the victor.Only thing in your post is that in the screenplay, Yoda does indeed defect Sidious' lighting with his saber.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
If Kenobi is an 8, how can he also be Anakin's equal? 8/=9.
They're equal when fighting each other. He said they can't get past each other's defenses.
As others have pointed out different combatants have different strengths and weaknesses and perform better against some opponents but worse against others who are on the same level.
So it's not always as simple as 9>8. Especially not with this quote Arhael has provided.
Originally posted by Arhael
This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."
- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126
👆 So it was actually all based on Lucas's levels. So much for all those who claimed we can't use those levels for debates. I guess they were just butt hurt that Dark Side Anakin, Mace, Sids and Yoda were all put on par.
As for the Vapaad using Opponents Darkness thing, I'm sure it was stated in Obi-Wan's account of TPM duel that Maul fed off Obi-Wan's rage. So it might just be a Dark Side thing to use all the Dark emotions around to feed them.
What Vapaad does is turn it all into a weapon of Light for a Jedi to use.
Originally posted by Arhael
The only thing I don't get is why Yoda jumped onto lower platform.
LOL No one gets that.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiMace WON... Yoda didn't. There is no amount of excuses or analogies or reasons that change that simple fact. You reasoning is even flawed.. citing that Yoda was able to deflect Sids lighting without a saber.. While Mace didn't. This fails firstly because there is zero evidence or narration that suggest Mace couldn't do that himself. Secondly, it fails because Mace DIDN'T GET DISARMED like Yoda did. Mace showed better combat prowess and awareness in not doing so. Sids shot Yoda saber from his hand.. He also shot at Mace and Mace MAINTAINED his saber. Mace actually DISARMED sids during saber combat.. Yoda made sids drop is saber to regain his footing. Plus the obvious fact, and one i stated, MACE WON.
You need to stop this "He Won", "He Lost" logic. Circumstances leading up to the fight(having help) count. Environment in which the fight takes place (Senate Chamber) make a big difference. Combatant reaching a rare and specific Uber state matter.
If you really want to go by the He Won, He Lost argument then Anakin beat The Son and Duaghter, meaning Mace doesn't have a chance in hell here.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, I pointed at it ones as well that Shatterpoint was useless exercise. But this distraction is not equal to Sidious'. Windu put his hardest into Vaapad and reached his best performance. Shatterpoint did not slow him down or decreased his performance in any way, which means that it was very subtle and not demanding exercise. Sidious on the other hand was rooting himself in place with TK. That's active "altering" Force power that not only redirected part of his effort and slowed him down, it, also, decreased his ability to move around effectively.I judged by performance. Judging by win/lose is not always the best thing as it most often involves circumstances, especially, when characters have similar prowess. As example Kenobi won Anakin, yet, for the most fight it was Anakin demonstrating superior performance pressing advantage, while Kenobi barely surviving.
Windu won due to circumstances. Yoda didn't win due to circumstances. These are facts as well. Windu disarmed Sidious due to circumstances. Yet, Yoda disarmed Sidious due to circumstances too. In saber performance they are even. The difference is that Sidious started faking weakness ones disarmed, while against Yoda he immediately used Force attack. Outcome of the fight with Sidious saber fights was a toss up in which circumstances decided.
This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."
- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126
All three Windu, Yoda and Sidious are level 9, that's why circumstances is main factor. But Kenobi is 8, while Anakin is 9 like Sidious. Yet, Kenobi won due to circumstances.
It actually specifically points that without lightsaber Windu is helpless:
"without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on"Indeed. But that's another circumstance. Windu's race is specifically known for his strength, while Yoda's strength is on opposite smaller than usual. Thus, making it unsuitable for him to block lightning with saber. Equally Windu has no absorb ability, so blocking with saber is his best option. The actual demonstration of blocking lightning is what matters. Lightsaber deflects and absorbs lightning. Windu's job is to redirect lightning into saber as well as root himself in place. Yoda did all the same thing but on top of that he needed to absorb and redirect lightning himself, which is harder effort. Logically Windu is supposed to have less problem, especially with Vaapad. But instead Windu nearly gets his lightsaber into his face and shouts "He is too strong", while Yoda presses his hands forward with grim face and Sidious tips his head with painful expression until explosion splits them.
Well, both disarmed Sidious during actual combat due to a circumstance. Keep in mind that I was actually the one who argued that Yoda disarming Sidious is a matter of circumstance, not superior skill, while others claimed he outskilled him plain and square.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to lowball Windu. I just evaluate him in a way that it fits with the rest of the material. And in this thread I hold neutral position. For me outcome of the fight between them is a toss up. I've seen plenty of statements like "he defeated Sidious only because of Vaapad" but and that he is below Yoda in normal circumstances. I argue that he defeated Sidious because of his exceptional skill and talents, not because of unfair advantage against darksiders and that he is on parr with Yoda in normal circumstances.
Windu and Anakin are both stated to be level 9 combatants by Nick Gillard.
Anakin has much larger Force reserves but he will waste them faster, if Windu will fight defensively like against Sidious.
Anakin has immense strength due to mechanical hand as well as superior power but Windu compensates it with his naturally stronger body due to species.
Anakin is very good at unarmed combat but so is Windu.
Anakin has incredible durability to the point that he can sustain even kick in the chin but Windu has got shatterpoint, so possibly he might find a weak spot after all.The fight is really a toss up.
Talking about who was distracted more is an exercise in futility.. There is no way to know, and in the end, it's pointless.
I think you have it wrong though.. THE most important thing is winning or losing. Period. The constant thing cirucumstances. They always exist in every fight in star wars or real life or in a sporting event. There are always circumstances in every fight.. in the end.. the most important thing is who comes out on top despite whatever circumstances are present. I think you need to keep that point in mind.
Plus the example you used is a faulty one as well... Anakin WASN'T showing CLEAR superiority to Kenobi. As I've pointed out.. doing their TK battle... They stalemated.. So right there that doesn't show superiority. Further, Kenobi landed the HARDEST blow of the fight.. Flooring Anakin and then standing over him to try and kill him. Further, he showed superior skill and battlefield awareness by getting the higher ground and then baiting Anakin to make the jump. He showed superior mental fortitude and calmness during the fight. I could go on listing examples. Point is, Anakin DIDN'T show any clear superiority to Kenobi.
You keep going on and on about circumstances...You can't hide behind such a stance. That's like saying... Kapernick running for a 65 TD untouched was circumstancial because the safety was brought up by the fake to the left and out of position.. the corner was blocked (cirucumstance he could've been unblocked) the Line didn't go the right way.. I could go on and on.. there are circumstances EVER single football play or basketball play.. but SO WHAT.. that is a constant. What matters is the play.. what matters is the win. That is the ultimate goal.
Now, Windu's race is stronger and thus that is the cirucsstance why he was able to hold his saber.. :facepalm: with the repeated and illogical use of circumstances over and over again. Mace KNOWS of his strengths and weakness... he KEEP HIMSELF in a POSITION TO WIN and use his advantages. Yoda ALSO knows his... He didn't put himself in a position to nullify his weakness. He allowed his saber to be disarmed from him. Mace did not. Peirod. End of Story. Please stop making excuses for it. Mace showed superior battle prowess and awareness in his fight with Sids. Period. Yoda did dumb things throughout his fight... mace did not. To even suggest Yoda looked superior is well silly. My analogy was spot on... Yoda got a penatly kick victory.. Mace won his match 2-0. It's really that simple.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI think you have it wrong though.. THE most important thing is winning or losing. Period.
Ok fine KT.
In thats case:
Skywalker > Son and Daughter >>> Everyone else (including Mace).
Wow isn't it so simple when we judge solely on who beat who.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As I've pointed out.. doing their TK battle... They stalemated.. So right there that doesn't show superiority.
I honestly think that was a force repulse thing. Same thing happened when Luminara and Ventress force pushed each other. I doubt it's because they're exactly equal in the Force. As I doubt Anakin and Obi-Wan also happen to be exactly equal in the Force.
Anakin actually has the superior Force feats.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your first point made ZERO sense. Like Zero buddy
LOL What was so difficult to understand?
Skywalker overpowered 2 Force wielders. Force wielders are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith.
Therefore going by your "Winning is everything" theory:
Anakin >>> Mace.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your next point is PURE conjecture on your part.. We'll just go ahead and go with what we saw... Kenobi and Skywalker stalemating in the force.
And yet Skywalker can handle Dooku's TK. Kenobi can not. Skywalker has shown he can Force Choke the likes of Ventress, Levitate a huge Temple Statue and collapse a huge underwater building with his TK. Kenobi's never shown any such TK feats.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Honestly if Kenobi showed Skywalkers TK feats, I would see nothing stopping him from being a level 9 duelist.
Nick Gillard said that a Level 8 can easily go up to that level by embracing the Dark Side. So the difference is just about that extra power. But in terms of skill it seems like 8's are on par with 9's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL What was so difficult to understand?Skywalker overpowered 2 Force wielders. Force wielders are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith.
Therefore going by your "Winning is everything" theory:
Anakin >>> Mace.
And yet Skywalker can handle Dooku's TK. Kenobi can not. Skywalker has shown he can Force Choke the likes of Ventress, Levitate a huge Temple Statue and collapse a huge underwater building with his TK. Kenobi's never shown any such TK feats.
That ABC logic is akin to saying Seattle scored that TD against Greenbay and thus won.. No.. we all saw that wasn't a TD.. the replay showed it wasn't a TD... They got the call wrong.. That is a win.. with a * i.e. not relevant or correct. That is about what ur analogy compares to
Still waiting on that narration stating what you're saying it is. We both know it doesn't exist so we'll just go ahead and call your theory conjecture at best. Besides, as you already admitted in anotehr thread Kenobi's TK defense is below that of Anakin's to which I agreed. You then admitted their offensive TK is likely a stalemate. I see you're swiitching your stance based on a conjecture with no proof. Bad bad DP