Uhm... Kenobi stopped him.And? This fight happens on "Open plain" with no higher grounds making your point irrelevant.
That's is not applicable so who cares about that point. Nobody is arguing they become an exact clone of the person they are matching...
The only relevant point is that it increases their battle formidability up and allow them to match or exceed what they might normally be able to. That is the only relevant part.
All characters tend to perform far better than usual during crucial fights. Vaapad is the answer to Windu's inner darkness, it's what works best for him. Other characters achieve similar or better effect by other means.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
That doesn't prove anything regarding Vaapad. It is stated that it is both a state of mind and a fighting style, not just a state of mind. It says so in the RotS novelization during Windu's fight against Sidious. Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her. If the opponent is a light sider, such as Yoda, it's only logical to deduce it won't work to its full potential because Yoda's darkness is practically nonexistent.And you just made that up that BS about the potential being a factor.
Your logical deduction fails for two reasons:
First, there is no evidence that Vaapad is less effective against lightsider because Windu never had serious fight with one, which means that your conclusion is built on assumption from single fight against a darksider.
Second, you used Yoda as example. If you believe that Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda because he is lightsider, then you are wrong:
"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.
Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" The power of the Jedi sourcebook.
So, if Windu is on parr with Yoda and Dooku despite being not as effective against lightsiders, then how comes his saber performance against Sidious wasn't better than Yoda's???
Drawing from the opponent's rage is only part of what Vaapad does. Apart from de drawing from that rage Vaapad allows the user to use the darkness of the opponent against him/herself. It's both things.
"Tahiri shook her head. "Abeloth is no herbivore, Fett. She feeds on fear. Anguish. On what beings feel as they suffer and die."
Fett's helmet swung back. "You're telling me she feeds on death?"
"Not in the way you mean," Tahiri replied. "She feeds on the feelings death causes. Fear and pain release a lot of dark side energy. That's what Abeloth is after".
"Abeloth was feeding on the dark side energy of their fear, Ben knew. He had seen her do it on Pydyr, when the entire population of the moon believed they were dying from an illusory plague. And now she was doing it on Coruscant, where the anxiety of the inhabitants had to be mounting by the hour as the battle raged ever more fiercely. With trillions of inhabitants on Coruscant, Abeloth's harvest would be limitless. Ben could not help wondering if this had been her plan all along-to set Jedi and Sith against each other, then feast on the fallout."
And this is from RotS:
"Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts"
This is more than enough evidence to conclude that darkside energy is Force energy that contains negative emotions.
Both Windu and Sidious were drawing on that energy as it surrounded them. And Sidious as more powerful one can draw on the Force more heavily. And that's why Windu struggled so much against his lightning despite having advantage of using lightsaber.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's also been stated that prime Qui-Gon was his equal.
Good point about Dark Randevous happening after Shatterpoint, though.
Scroll back and see the boxing analogy I used.. i.e. SPARRING. For somebody to think sparring equates to a no holds barred fight... tells me one of two things.. they are devoid of common sense.. or never played any sport at any competitive level. There is a huge difference between playing 21 in basketball and playing one v one. Can 21 show skills and abilities that might translate to a 1 v 1 game.. sure.. is it the same? Not even close. Same with the boxing analogy I used earlier.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anyone, and I mean A N Y O N E who believes that sparring is truly indicative of how actual combat would play out is... ignorant to say the least; Ignorant of real world combat and ignorant of life. I guarandamntee you that Mace wouldn't have used Vaapad in a sparring session, especially given that he was terrified of the darkness until after the vents of SP. To think that he would practice a combat style that takes its user through the penumbra of the darkside in anything less than a life or death scenario is asinine.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's for you to prove that Vaapad is more effective against darksiders. Keep in mind that Vaapad's main purpose is to channel inner darkness into something positive. If Windu's opponent is lightsider, he can focus on his own darkness instead to achieve same effect. Moreover, Vaapad is about relishing fight, so even fighting lightsider Windu would still relish fight.
No, Vaapad's main purpose is not to channel your inner darkness into something positive, it is to channel your opponent's darkness:
"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent." - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
There's your proof.
I'll say it again: how han he channel Yoda's darkness if it's practically nonexistent?
On the other hand, he can very well channel Sidious' or Dooku's darkness; ergo, making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.
First, there is no evidence that Vaapad is less effective against lightsider because Windu never had serious fight with one, which means that your conclusion is built on assumption from single fight against a darksider.
As seen in the quote provided above, it is no assumption. It is fact. Vaapad users redirect the opponent's darkness towards themselves.
Second, you used Yoda as example. If you believe that Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda because he is lightsider, then you are wrong
I never said Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda, I simply said Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against him.
Again you are wrong. Specifically you are wrong to consider rage and darkness of the opponent as two separate things. I've already said that emotion and power is the same thing and I was not assuming
Emotion does not equate power. You can draw power from strong emotions, which is different and it is what you have just proven.
Power can be gained from various means, such as knowledge and training, not only emotions. Emotions give the invidivual a boost to their power. By no means is emotion the same thing as power.
And as I've proven, I'm not wrong to consider rage and darkness as separate things. It is specifically said that one half of the superconducting loop is the opponent's rage, and the other half is his/her darkness.
Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.
Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.
As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.
SIds didn't DROP the sabe just to drop itr.. he was FORCED to drop it by Yoda's assault.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
No, Vaapad's main purpose is not to channel your inner darkness into something positive, it is to channel your opponent's darkness:"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent." - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
I'll say it again: how can he channel Yoda's darkness if it's practically nonexistent?On the other hand, he can very well channel Sidious' or Dooku's darkness; ergo, making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.
"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle".
So as per this quote I see no reason to assume that it wouldn't be as effective against lightsiders. The only difference is that Windu would risk to fall to the darkside by utilizing his own darkness.
As seen in the quote provided above, it is no assumption. It is fact. Vaapad users redirect the opponent's darkness towards themselves.
I never said Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda, I simply said Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against him.
Power can be gained from various means, such as knowledge and training, not only emotions. Emotions give the invidivual a boost to their power. By no means is emotion the same thing as power.
Force surrounds them all around. Force users can use that Force either to empower their physical capabilities or to do direct Force attack. Sidious used Force to empower his body and attack physically. Windu needed to counter by empowering his own body. Both draw on the Force that surrounds them and the only extra thing it contained is emotions from them. Vaapad is state of mind, which means that this superconduit loop happens on mental level, it's not a real thing.
And as I've proven, I'm not wrong to consider rage and darkness as separate things. It is specifically said that one half of the superconducting loop is the opponent's rage, and the other half is his/her darkness.
"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow"
This quote comes from novel and according to it half of the loop is Windu himself and the other is Sidious (shadow).
Please, use novel quotes. It contains complete description as well as demonstration, while that guide only twisted part of it.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.
As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.
A>B>C didn't really work that logically in ROTS. Which Lucas made btw. So you'll need a better argument than that to prove Mace > Peak Anakin.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.
As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.
What are you talking about back in ROTS bonus features it's made clear that.
Dooku, Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are level 9 duelists. Why can't you people get it through your head that Dooku is on the same level as Mace, and, to a lesser degree, Sidious.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What are you talking about back in ROTS bonus features it's made clear that.
Dooku, Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are level 9 duelists. Why can't you people get it through your head that Dooku is on the same level as Mace, and, to a lesser degree, Sidious.
Any links to the source? I never read it myself.
Originally posted by Arhael
👆Any links to the source? I never read it myself.
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.
I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.
He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.
I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
Originally posted by Arhael
👆Any links to the source? I never read it myself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.
He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.
I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
cry
Goddamn it LucasArts they took it down.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.
He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.
I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.
He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.
I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
If Kenobi is an 8, how can he also be Anakin's equal? 8/=9.
Yes.
Vaapad works both ways, drawing from Windu's own darkness and that of the enemy, as well. The quotes you (Arhael) provided are not contradicting anything, they're just adding. You said that since Yoda, our example, is a light sider, Windu would draw from his own darkness instead. Well, if Yoda was a dark sider, he would draw from his own darkness and that of his opponent's, adding to his power even further and making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.
It's quite simple.
And I was just making clear that emotions do not equate power. I wasn't saying it had anything to do with Vaapad.